Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

roadburner · March 2015

nyccarguy said:

The car is comfortable and quiet. It is more spacious than the E90 I had. I just don't get that euphoric feeling inside that screams at me: "find a way to get this car, NOW!"

Exactly. I remember driving a pre-production E36 325i; I wanted one yesterday. It ticked all the boxes, as the Brits say. In contrast, yesterday I took my wife's 3er to my dealer for an Oil Service, brake fluid change, and front brakes. I strolled through the new car showroom and I saw absolutely nothing that gave me that "gotta have it!" vibe. The cars were not bad, just not engaging.

flightnurse · March 2015

nyccarguy said:
@flightnurse‌

I think it is fantastic that you really enjoy your 320i. I don't think it is a bad car at all. I'm not disputing that it gets fantastic mileage or eats up hours of western US highways without a hint of driver fatigue. The car is comfortable and quiet. It is more spacious than the E90 I had. I just don't get that euphoric feeling inside that screams at me:

I'm lost on "find a way to get this car, NOW!".

For 2016 BMW has "supposed" to have fixed the "numbness" in the steering, it wouldn't be like the E46 or E90 but better then what the F3x cars have currently. I drive the 320 the way BMW has intended it to be driven, as a daily driver, and the car does this well. I love hearing people tear apart BMW's, these are generally are people who have no real seat time in them, as I posted driving one for a day or two isn't really real seat time.

flightnurse · March 2015

Mark, why didn't your wife choose the Q5 TDI? better MPG and more torque then the SQ5, and a lower price point too. If I was going to get a SUV, it would be either the Q5 or X5d. Hard to bed 400lbs of torque and mid 30's MPG...

tlong · March 2015

benjaminh said:
"....So I finally and grudgingly sold it and bought my current ride, an '05 Acura TL (now at 150K miles). The Acura has given me almost no trouble and it's a great car (and one of the good looking TLs rather than the later disasters), but it is still big and heavy and sloppy next to my A4. I really still do miss that Audi. But I really do like the reliability of my Acura."

10 years and 150k miles of almost trouble-free driving is quite impressive. Have you considered a new ILX or TLX as a successor?

Honestly the ILX isn't that appealing to me, and the TLX when I sat in it is surprisingly similar to my current car which still is really nice. So I'm holding out a bit more. Believe it or not, I'm thinking of possibly a fully loaded Mazda 3 sedan as a poor man's BMW at a much lower price. I rented a 328 recently (I'm sure it was a stripper model) and I wasn't very impressed.

roadburner · March 2015

Maybe I should join the BMW CCA and find out what this BMW enthusiasm is all about...

cdnpinhead · March 2015

markcincinnati · March 2015

flightnurse said:
Mark, why didn't your wife choose the Q5 TDI? better MPG and more torque then the SQ5, and a lower price point too. If I was going to get a SUV, it would be either the Q5 or X5d. Hard to bed 400lbs of torque and mid 30's MPG...

The SQ5 with the supercharged V6 is much quicker and the S treatment just can't be replicated from the option list.

The German SQ5 is a TDI -- now THAT would be the one. The US spec Q5 TDI is just not aimed at the customer who puts the performance Audi builds into its S cars first.

The only thing that she thought was a worthy competitor to the SQ5 was the Macan S (we didn't drive the Turbo -- and yes I know they're both turbocharged -- since it was way more money than we had planned to spend); yet similarly equipped the Porsche was some $10K more and it didn't even have pushbutton start and the design of the Macan made is have less utility.

An SQ5 TDI with an adjustable suspension and sport diff, now that would be something!

benjaminh · March 2015

andres3 said:
I think a 2.0 A3 can be had for about $33-34K, and that's with Quattro AWD standard. Why must one "trick out" a vehicle?

The least expensive A3 2.0 at my local dealer has a list of $38 k:

http://audi.bluegrassauto.com/new/Audi/2015-Audi-A3-7f8b7d2d0a0a0002230841a6a420a379.htm?model=A3

It looks very nicely equipped at that price, including a power passenger seat, Bang and Olufsen Sound system, push button start, etc. It's not clear to me if this one has a back up camera at that price, but it doesn't list it.

Nice car!

For less money than that, however, I'd probably consider an Acura TLX with the Tech Package for about $3k less in msrp. For that you'd get navi, memory seats, a hard drive for music, LED headlights, more room, etc. , although of course your don't get the Audi 4wd, acceleration, or prestige.

Both are good choices, but serve different kinds of customers.....

sweendogy · March 2015

Acura still makes cars.... @benjaminh - ? come on dude they only build SUVs - unless this is 2001 again

dino001 · March 2015

flightnurse said:

For 2016 BMW has "supposed" to have fixed the "numbness" in the steering, it wouldn't be like the E46 or E90 but better then what the F3x cars have currently. I drive the 320 the way BMW has intended it to be driven, as a daily driver, and the car does this well. I love hearing people tear apart BMW's, these are generally are people who have no real seat time in them, as I posted driving one for a day or two isn't really real seat time.

I drove "bare bones" 328i multiple times, as loaners, each time it was for a couple of days (they always kept my car for service overnight), so I got about a week's worth of standard F30 328. Still don't care for the steering. Yes, the car actually goes where I want it to go (suspension seems to be responsive and compliant enough), but lack of the feedback is pretty significant for anybody who ever owned cars like Subaru WRX, or previous 3-series, especially like mine, with sport suspension. Every time after those couple of days, or a test-drive of other 3-series derivatives in the market, including 335 or 435 (those were with MSport lines), I'm glad I can get back behind the wheel of my 328 wagon. It's not as fast, or fuel efficient, may be even a bit noisier, but the steering feedback feel is far superior. Why BMW changed it? Two reasons - fuel and market demand. The second one came from their desire to sell more and more units. The more you want to sell, the more you have to appeal to average Joe, even if Joe has more than average income. Americans like things soft, I cru through tears every time I read those comments about "such harsh" suspension on sport package, they clearly never drove Audi, whose "sport suspensions" generally consist of stones in places of springs

. But the steering was reporteadly "too rigid" for people - so BMW changed it. In America bigger and softer is still "better".

benjaminh · March 2015

sweendogy said:
Acura still makes cars.... @benjaminh - ? come on dude they only build SUVs - unless this is 2001 again

Acura has been weak when it comes to cars. But maybe, just maybe, they are coming back?

Here are the bestselling luxury cars for Feb:

1. BMW 3/4 series 8748

2. MB C-class 7072

3. Lexus EX 4192

5. Infiniti Q 50 3649

6. BMW 5 series 3606

7. Acura TLX 3419

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2015/03/usa-best-selling-luxury-autos-february-2015-sales-figures.html#more

Not very impressive, but the new TLX is in the top
11. I think there's a chance the new ILX might join it in the next 6 months or so. Time will tell....

sweendogy · March 2015

@benjaminh‌ - Benny interesting data thanks- good to see acura on the list. Amazing how many bmw 3/4series they sell(lease) and how audi doesn't make the list at all- wow - up here in newengland can't go a block without seeing an a3/4/5/6

graphicguy · March 2015

BEing a staunch Acura and BMW lover, I was as shocked as anyone when I found the CTS to be more engaging to drive than either.

My 3rd gen TL was good, but a bit darty on the road. Fun to drive, though. The 4th gen TL (Acura Shield grill) added to the previous gen in big doses. It was more sophosticated, suspension was much better, it was faster, smoother....just all around better.

The current TLX I need more seat time in. But, it seemed to regress a bit over the previous version. Yes, it had all the tech....LED lights, shift buttons, 9 speed trans, quieter, plus it hit a price point with the 4 cyl that will appeal to many. But,, I came away thinking I enjoyed my 4th gen TL drive better.

I do think RB is right. There are driving enthusiasts who do know what their car can do and the specs of just about every important function of the car.

Then, there are those who just don't care. They just want a BMW or a Mercedes. They know what they're buying before they get behind the wheel of the test drive. They wouldn't know the difference between understeer or torque steer if you held a fire to their feet.

Not saying any of that is bad. Just think the majority of sales by the likes of the German brands have little to do with how engaging their cars are to drive. It has more to do with the perception of themselves by owning one of those brands.

Benjamin....the thing with a TLX, you'll not find a car with more tech in it on the road. It handles well (4 cyl and SH AWD versions). It's relatively quick. And, once you drive it off the dealer's lot, the only things you'll be back for is oil changes and tire rotations for most of its life. And if you do need something out of warranty fixed, you won't have to take a 2nd mortgage out. They get good MPG to boot. So, there's a lot to like.

TLONG....have you driven the new TLX yet? Might be worth it if you're actually starting to look. Although, I can't knock you for looking at something like the Mazdaspeed 3, however.

markcincinnati · March 2015

"We have met the enemy and he is us." -- Pogo.

I agree with the following statement made here by one of our fellow posters:

"The more you want to sell, the more you have to appeal to average Joe, even if Joe has more than average income."

What I sense here, however, is that "average Joe" is meant to imply someone who, due to their lack of sophistication, and due to their sheer numbers has been at least partially responsible for the degradation of the "essence" of BMW automobiles (at least the 3 series apparently) ride and handling characteristics. Somehow I get the feeling here that I (we) am (are) meant to hold "average Joe" accountable and to blame for the sorry state of current BMWs steering and ride/handling characteristics.

What BMW did was realize, apparently, that it is better to be popular with respect to your target market rather than attempt to appeal to what some have called the lunatic fringe. If you are the CEO, what is your charge? I would argue it is to first retain market share then to gain market share. If your loudmouth customers won't put their money where their mouths are, do whatever it takes to find the customers and prospective customers who will.

Why is it so difficult, virtually impossible, these days, to find manual transmission cars? If you read what I read, you would think manuals are the best way to go if you want the best performance possible. Were I an auto manufacturer's CEO, and I read these posts and virtually all of the automotive enthusiasts magazines, I would start making stick shifts available all across my car lines. I would spend time and treasure to make certain my brand would offer stick shifts and that my dealers would be required to keep stick models in stock.

My company would suffer, because as Pogo says, "the enemy is us" [sic]. All of us loudmouths who want stick shifts (based on our bellyaching) were all yak and no shak! Stick shifts aren't popular, they don't sell and if I listened to the lunatic fringe, my car company would die on the vine.

Stiff suspensions and steering that offers road feel don't increase sales, in fact they must actually decrease sales or they would dominate.

It is possible to order an Audi A6 with a sport suspension, ultra low profile tires and 20" wheels -- and those tires would be max performance designation and be made of short tread life summer only compounds. You would think the benefits of the lower stiffer suspension calibration thicker anti-roll bars and the above mentioned tires and wheels would be so obvious that dealers couldn't keep A6's so built in stock.

The reality is, the very few sport suspension equipped models are the slowest sellers. Pogo strikes again.

I say we all need to go out and BUY the 3 series all tarted up with every performance enhancing option possible, ditto the Audi, Cadillac and Mercedes (and other brands) models.

We need to shut up, grow up and pay up -- the cars you're (me too) bitchin' about are the way they are because of YOU. If you had forced the issue and actually put your money where your mouth is, well we'd have great performing BMWs (and the others, too) instead of the cars so many of us decry as "not what they used to be."

The way they used to be is not responsive to the market.

Qwit yur bitchin'

graphicguy · March 2015

Mark....bravo.

I have a little bit of a different view on a couple of points. Manual transmissions......frankly, I doubt there's anyone on this board that can shift faster than the current crop of autos. That's why we've been seeing performance numbers that are higher for autos than they are for automatics. Same goes for MPG (which isn't a "nice to have"....gov't is making big MPG numbers a necuessity).

Personally, I'd rather have a 4 on the floor big block to carry me around. Efficient? Not hardly. Heavy and unwieldy? Yep...pretty much. But, that's what I'd like.

Point being, to gather market share, the BMWs, the Mecedes, the Infinitis, etc are all moving towards the middle. "Let me have my 3-pointed star or my roundel, so I can get noticed. The rest? Performance? Handling? Who cares? That's not why I bought this car." Those are the customers in this segment, now.

dino001 · March 2015

I generally agree with you, Mark. I AM paying up (of course within limits of my abilities), I WILL NOT buy a car from a lot, just because it is a "better deal", if it doesn't hit my minimum requirements. There is no deal, if one gets not what they want. I also totally understand BMW's move. Calling me a part of "lunatic fringe" is a bit harsh

- perhaps "eccentric few" would be more polite

. Unfortunately, both average Joe Sixpack and Joseph Broker want a car "today". They can't fathom waiting for one a few weeks. So dealers and manufacturers run their business for those guys' pleasure, not mine. I already feel lucky, when I mention a special order, I get a quick nod from a salesman saying "no problem, all we need is XYZ", rather than more typical deer in headlights looks.

While I acknowledge BMW's right to do what they think is best for them, I also reserve myself a right to [non-permissible content removed] a little, if their choices differ from my preferences - just like with any other product we buy. There is no law saying we have to be ecstatic every time we buy something. Sometimes we buy a compromise - I venture to say most of the time. Ultimately, I know I have to adjust and get something closest to my "ideal" product. Doesn't mean I can't express in places like this, what I would like to see, or why I think that product is not available.

markcincinnati · March 2015

dino001 said:
I generally agree with you, Mark. I AM paying up (of course within limits of my abilities), I WILL NOT buy a car from a lot, just because it is a "better deal", if it doesn't hit my minimum requirements. There is no deal, if one gets not what they want. I also totally understand BMW's move. Calling me a part of "lunatic fringe" is a bit harsh - perhaps "eccentric few" would be more polite . Unfortunately, both average Joe Sixpack and Joseph Broker want a car "today". They can't fathom waiting for one a few weeks. So dealers and manufacturers run their business for those guys' pleasure, not mine. I already feel lucky, when I mention a special order, I get a quick nod from a salesman saying "no problem, all we need is XYZ", rather than more typical deer in headlights looks.

While I acknowledge BMW's right to do what they think is best for them, I also reserve myself a right to [non-permissible content removed] a little, if their choices differ from my preferences - just like with any other product we buy. There is no law saying we have to be ecstatic every time we buy something. Sometimes we buy a compromise - I venture to say most of the time. Ultimately, I know I have to adjust and get something closest to my "ideal" product. Doesn't mean I can't express in places like this, what I would like to see, or why I think that product is not available.

OMG -- I am not in any way, shape, manner, form or regard suggesting (for REAL) that we shouldn't express our opinions. For pity's sake, I was ranting -- sometimes I just get worn out reading posts about how things were better then than they are now.

Sure it is possible that a product (and a car is a product) from 2000 or 1996 or even 2012 is superior in some way or many ways to a 2015 model. Overall, it is my belief that as time passes the products generally improve either by being more effective or more efficient or both.

The thing is, somebody writes (while obviously wringing their hands) how they're so very very disappointed in the (speaking of automobiles) fill-in-the-blank's appearance, engine, transmission, seats, sound system, nav system, fuel economy, wheels, tires, brakes, headlights, tail-lights, side-lights, and on and on and on until I could just scream.

If, for instance, you don't care for the Audi A4 2.0T (insert trim level and options here) because it has a 4-cylinder engine and a tinny sounding audio system and flat, non-supportive seats, well I would counter with either: Don't buy one or Option the thing up the way you want it including getting an S (and in some cases RS) model. Audi and BMW (again, to name just two) provide customers with extensive optional (or "available") configurations.

"The 'old' 3-series was better?" Better than what? I would argue you can option the 3-series to provide the looks (within reason), performance, handling, creature comforts, etc, that will allow you to have it your way.

Miss the i6 engine of yesteryear? Can't see yourself driving anything less than a vehicle with 6-cylinders? Get a 335. Better yet, get an M3 and stop being such a cry-baby. Me? I had to settle for an S4 with a 7-speed DSG transmission with a very nice B&O sound system and blind spot monitoring to say nothing of beautiful red leather seats. You'd think I'd gone daft were I to tell you my 1996 5-cylinder S6 was seriously a "better" car (even though it is a sentimental favorite).

Have to have a stick shift? -- well maybe you can maybe you can't get one in the particular fill-in-the-blank you want; but, as has been correctly noted above, today's dual clutch automatics and even torque converter equipped 8-speeds can and will out-shift Walter Röhrl on his best day -- do you think you can do better? (and besides the reason there are no stick shifts has already been explained and it is still YOUR fault).

The car you want in this era of virtual mass-customization probably does still exist. If you have to have analog steering with hydraulic assist, well, you'll probably have to buy a used car that may not have as many improvements as the 2015 or 2016 that you can buy off the lot, or better still order direct from BMW (or whoever).

Yes, yes, we should and hopefully will be permitted to continue, letting of steam: Wishin' and Hopin' for the good ol' days.

Gawd, some of us (and you know who you are) sound like my parents when I wanted to listen to the Beatles or Led Zep (or, heaven forbid, Pink Floyd): "That's not music, its a bunch of barbarians, barbarians I tell you. Now Lawrence Welk, THAT's music Mark!"

If you (and you know who you are) just can't take the direction BMW is going, find something else and buy it. What I am concerned about (and often representative of) is our becoming a bunch of curmudgeons or maybe even Luddites.

Buying a 2005 fill-in-the-blank because that was the last year the arbitrary capillary was still used to keep the pressure evenly applied to the crank-knuckle, doesn't do anything for the advancement of the art and science of the automobile business (and we mustn't forget it is first and foremost a business).

All I am asking is that you (we) don't adopt my dad's approach to rock music in your descriptions of your disappointments with BMW or Audi or even Acura for abandoning us, the faithful -- dear old dad used to say this about rock music: "Noise, Bohemian tripe, bang and twang over-loud, barbarians at the gates of hell!"

It gave me such great pleasure when I came home (from my first quarter of college) for Thanksgiving having gone without a haircut for nearly 5 months and blasting (I turned it up to 11):

"You need cooling
Baby, I'm not fooling
I'm gonna send, yeah
You back to schooling
Way down inside
Honey, you need it
I'm gonna give you my love
I'm gonna give you my love
Wanna whole lotta love
Wanna whole lotta love
Wanna whole lotta love
Wanna whole lotta love"

They don't make music like THAT anymore, eh?

Nothing Gold Can Stay

P.S. Lunatic fringe is preferable to eccentric few if you axe me.

I remain: Often wrong, NEVER uncertain!

dino001 · March 2015

I was joking with the "impolite" comment. I guess the wink wasn't enough to convey the message... I can be a lunatic, why not. Will wear it as a badge of honor.

dino001 · March 2015

BTW, I disagree with all this mess being MY fault. Don't look at me, I did my part - all my cars, but one had manual transmission. I got a manual, I got sport suspension, I insisted on a factory order with everything I wanted, not the sales manager thought I wanted. So I did my part, yet they still changed that because others didn't. In other word, IT IS SOMEBODY ELSE at fault, namely all other self-described "enthusiasts", who couldn't wait six weeks for their car, or had thousand other excuses (my wife won't let me), so they took what was on the lot. So yeah, I will [non-permissible content removed] a little...

BTW, I can't get 335 in a wagon. I can get it in a 435 Gran Coupe and that one is likely going to be my next car, unless I decide I can trade the price. I also can get 335 Gran Turismo, there is even a nice demo available today, but the steering is just awful. Can't bear it.

NOT MY FAULT, NOT MY FAULT

markcincinnati · March 2015

I know you were and it did, dino001 -- we're having a snow day here at the office, so I'm pretty much alone, no emails, no phone calls, just white death out my window. I could hardly be in a better mood and in no way didn't get the "wink".

Sorry if I conveyed anything other than passion in my prose. Eccentric few is OK, I just happen to like the sound and fury of "Lunatic Fringe (I know you're out there). See you on the other side." -- Red Rider.

I am a child of the late '60's and '70's (and so on), and a whole bunch of song lyrics just keep coming to the surface -- which I must attribute to the "flashbacks" (no not THAT kind) I have frequently since I spent over 6 years of my life as a Rock 'n' Roll DJ in lil' ol' Oxford, Ohio.

dino001 · March 2015

It's all good. I totally get what you say. Companies make what sells at prices they deem appropriate for return on their capital. If just a few lunatics want what I want and they still are not willing to fork over the money, there is no point. They make what will make them money, not what I, you, or three other people think they should make.

cdnpinhead · March 2015

graphicguy said:
......frankly, I doubt there's anyone on this board that [sic] can shift faster than the current crop of autos.

Where is it written that shift speed is the key factor? What about shifting when you want, how you want, skipping as many gears as you want, and changing your mind in the middle of it all, if traffic or other conditions warrant?

Then there's the robustness (or lack thereof) of the transmission if one keeps the vehicle beyond the warranty period (I know, I know, who would be so stupid?). Even if the thing is under warranty, there's the PITA factor of bringing it to the dealer and picking it up. Then there's the how much does it cost to fix and how long does it take, once the thing packs up?

Those who trade every 2-3 years look at many of these things differently than those of us who don't.

cdnpinhead · March 2015

"They don't make music like THAT anymore, eh?"

I was rolling through southern New Mexico about that time (Dec '69) at 70 mph or so in an MGB at 1 a.m. when it was about 15 degrees outside listening to the same music, turned WAY up.

Good times.

qbrozen · March 2015

cdnpinhead said:
What about shifting when you want, how you want, skipping as many gears as you want, and changing your mind in the middle of it all, if traffic or other conditions warrant?

Well, to argue the other side, when talking about the good autos out there, they can do all of that. Its just as matter of pushing a button enough times. Drop down 3 gears? Click-click-click. Done. I drive with the Caddy in manual mode all the time, by the way. I prefer putting it in the correct gear before telling it what I want with the gas pedal.

roadburner · March 2015

cdnpinhead said:

Those who trade every 2-3 years look at many of these things differently than those of us who don't.

Exactly!

markcincinnati · March 2015

cdnpinhead said:

graphicguy said:
......frankly, I doubt there's anyone on this board that [sic] can shift faster than the current crop of autos.
Where is it written that shift speed is the key factor? What about shifting when you want, how you want, skipping as many gears as you want, and changing your mind in the middle of it all, if traffic or other conditions warrant?

Then there's the robustness (or lack thereof) of the transmission if one keeps the vehicle beyond the warranty period (I know, I know, who would be so stupid?). Even if the thing is under warranty, there's the PITA factor of bringing it to the dealer and picking it up. Then there's the how much does it cost to fix and how long does it take, once the thing packs up?

Those who trade every 2-3 years look at many of these things differently than those of us who don't.

Have you seen the pictures of the cockpits of the new mega class passenger jets? There aren't any windows!

My '14 Audi doesn't have a cassette player!

I can, however shift my DSG with greater precision than I could ever shift a stick shift, and I was (and hopefully still might be) good at shifting.

But, it still doesn't matter -- "no one" buys them. I did test drive both an S4 6-speed manual and the DSG I ended up getting -- the DSG (shhh don't let this out) was better at it than I and, at high RPM's, the DSG never made a misstep and didn't require me to drive with one hand on the wheel.

I drank the Kool-aid apparently.

And, although I could have gotten my S4 with a stick, the S3, perhaps foreshadowing other coming attractions, can only be had with a 6-speed DSG.

Even my wife's 8-speed tiptronic has been programmed by folks so skilled, it seems like it MUST be a DSG, too.

I don't know about durability, but I imagine I might find out this time, since I plan to keep the thing beyond the factory warranty (but I have been thinking I would buy an extended warranty, cover myself with butter and carry lemons just in case.)

Yet, another argument that "they're" hoping "we'll" make is that we'll want to keep our vehicles as up to date as possible; and since most cars can't be updated to adopt the latest and greatest technologies, the notion of replacing cars about every 3-4 years does have some merit.

circlew · March 2015

I checked out leases on a q50 but the sport model like the $28k '13 G37s goes into $500/month and up.
Looks good for the G instead.

There is only a few within 100 miles of my zip on cars.com. Tons of the x and a few more sport coupes but I want the sedan although the coupe is the looker of the two.

nyccarguy · March 2015

The wide net they have cast allows them to sell more cars & SUVs. At the same time, the brain trust in Munich is driving away it's core customers (or are we clients now?). There was a time in my life when I had a major part of my automotive life mapped out in my head. It was filled with 3s, 5s, X3s, M3s, X5s, and Z4s. The current crop of 3ers are just normal cars to me. They aren't super heroes anymore (except for the brakes, they are tremendous).

If I'm shopping in this class right now, I'd look at an IS350 AWD, TLX V6 w/ Tech AWD, Q50S AWD, & a Buick Regal GS AWD.

tlong · March 2015

graphicguy said:

TLONG....have you driven the new TLX yet? Might be worth it if you're actually starting to look. Although, I can't knock you for looking at something like the Mazdaspeed 3, however.

Actually have not driven either yet. If I were to buy Acura again I would get the ILX as I've had the TL for 10 years and am tired of a car of this size - I want it a bit smaller. So no TLX, plus I'm not in the mood to spend that much. I certainly could afford it but just want to maximize my enjoyment and luxury for the $$.
-
I looked at the specs - I would pay probably $5K more for a ILX than a fully loaded Mazda 3 sedan. The Mazda has things like HUD, blind spot warning, even radar cruise control, all around $30K tops. It is a small bit larger than the ILX. It is widely praised as being like a baby BMW in handling. I know that in our '07 Mazda 5 which is of course a microvan, in pure maneuverability it outshines my current TL by quite a bit - tighter turning circle, better steering feel as an example. I would expect the current Mazda 3 to do quite a bit better than that.

The ILX on paper is a little smaller. Given my TL experienc, I'm sure it would be reliable and might be more refined than the Mazda, which is a consideration. The ILX has more HP but less torque, so not sure how they will both feel. And am still considering getting a manual if I could find either of them in that tranny, since they are both still offered with manual transmissions.

The other alternative is just hanging onto my '05 TL a few more years. It stays reliable at 150K, still looks good and drives well, I put a few $$ into it occasionally for battery/tires/brakes/fluids/etc. I did get the engine mounts and some suspension bushings changed at about 137K and spent about a grand. I figure that is ok given the mileage and it was my most expensive repair on the car.

benjaminh · March 2015

tlong said:

graphicguy said:

TLONG....have you driven the new TLX yet? Might be worth it if you're actually starting to look. Although, I can't knock you for looking at something like the Mazdaspeed 3, however.
Actually have not driven either yet. If I were to buy Acura again I would get the ILX as I've had the TL for 10 years and am tired of a car of this size - I want it a bit smaller. So no TLX, plus I'm not in the mood to spend that much. I certainly could afford it but just want to maximize my enjoyment and luxury for the $$.
-
I looked at the specs - I would pay probably $5K more for a ILX than a fully loaded Mazda 3 sedan. The Mazda has things like HUD, blind spot warning, even radar cruise control, all around $30K tops. It is a small bit larger than the ILX. It is widely praised as being like a baby BMW in handling. I know that in our '07 Mazda 5 which is of course a microvan, in pure maneuverability it outshines my current TL by quite a bit - tighter turning circle, better steering feel as an example. I would expect the current Mazda 3 to do quite a bit better than that.

The ILX on paper is a little smaller. Given my TL experienc, I'm sure it would be reliable and might be more refined than the Mazda, which is a consideration. The ILX has more HP but less torque, so not sure how they will both feel. And am still considering getting a manual if I could find either of them in that tranny, since they are both still offered with manual transmissions.

The other alternative is just hanging onto my '05 TL a few more years. It stays reliable at 150K, still looks good and drives well, I put a few $$ into it occasionally for battery/tires/brakes/fluids/etc. I did get the engine mounts and some suspension bushings changed at about 137K and spent about a grand. I figure that is ok given the mileage and it was my most expensive repair on the car.

I didn't know you could option up a Mazda3 all the way to 30k. But I went to their site and you're right--it can be done. Since the Acura ILX starts at 28k msrp, depending on the options you want you could have an ILX for less than a fully tricked out 3. In terms of size, the two are very close. In fact, the ILX and the 3 are within about an inch of each other in length and width.

The Mazda 3 with the 2.5 is rated by the epa at 32 mpg combined, which is a big jump from the 21 of your 2005 TL. But the ILX does pretty well at 29.

In terms of acceleration, at least according to Car and Driver, the ILX is about a second faster going to 60 than the Mazda3 2.5. ILX: 6.3 ; Mazda3 2.5: 7.3. To me it seems like a possible case for the ILX, but since I haven't driven either one I don't know about driving enjoyment.

The 2016 ILX is no longer available with a manual. The standard transmission is an 8 speed DC with an exclusive torque converter. It does come with paddle shifters...

robr2 · March 2015

So BMW has announced Project XCite (wonder if it will come with Rimz and Tintz like the kids say these days):

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/spy-shots/bmw/bmw-guns-for-the-juke-1-series-sportcross-coupe-coming-in-2018/

the 1 Series SportCross set to take on the Nissan Juke and Citroen C4 Cactus.

Is there any niche that BMW won't chase? The white van market is red hot right now - where is BMW's entry?

graphicguy · March 2015

markcincinnati said:
I know you were and it did, dino001 -- we're having a snow day here at the office, so I'm pretty much alone, no emails, no phone calls, just white death out my window. I could hardly be in a better mood and in no way didn't get the "wink".

Sorry if I conveyed anything other than passion in my prose. Eccentric few is OK, I just happen to like the sound and fury of "Lunatic Fringe (I know you're out there). See you on the other side." -- Red Rider.

I am a child of the late '60's and '70's (and so on), and a whole bunch of song lyrics just keep coming to the surface -- which I must attribute to the "flashbacks" (no not THAT kind) I have frequently since I spent over 6 years of my life as a Rock 'n' Roll DJ in lil' ol' Oxford, Ohio.

Mark....Are you a Miami alum? I am. Are you talking about WOXY?

markcincinnati · March 2015

graphicguy said:

markcincinnati said:
I know you were and it did, dino001 -- we're having a snow day here at the office, so I'm pretty much alone, no emails, no phone calls, just white death out my window. I could hardly be in a better mood and in no way didn't get the "wink".

Sorry if I conveyed anything other than passion in my prose. Eccentric few is OK, I just happen to like the sound and fury of "Lunatic Fringe (I know you're out there). See you on the other side." -- Red Rider.

I am a child of the late '60's and '70's (and so on), and a whole bunch of song lyrics just keep coming to the surface -- which I must attribute to the "flashbacks" (no not THAT kind) I have frequently since I spent over 6 years of my life as a Rock 'n' Roll DJ in lil' ol' Oxford, Ohio.
Mark....Are you a Miami alum? I am. Are you talking about WOXY?

Yes I am a Miami Alum, too and actually a Miami Merger -- got my undergrad and grad degrees from MU, worked at WOXR (not OXY) as the program director, commercial producer and had an on-air show 5 nights per week. We WERE for about 6 years the only prog rock station in SW Ohio. Those were the days. OXford Radio (OXR). I have no idea why the name was changed to OXY.

When I went to Miami, no cars were allowed unless you were married or until you were in grad school, so car commentaries weren't even on my radar. Actually did my Master's work (which used to be called a thesis, but by the time I was there it was called "independent reading" which was, so it seems, about 10x the amount of work as just taking a class would have been -- I mean I felt like I read the entire freaking library for pity's sake) on how mass-media (when there was no Internet) helped win World War II financially by getting people to buy the bonds that funded the thing. And, in 1976, your final act before getting your Master's was what was then called Master's Orals. As far as I know these days if you take and pass the courses you get the degree. Back then (1976, before you were born probably), you had to sit in front of three PhD's and the Dean and answer their questions and spar with them for about 90 minutes or so, so they could determine if you knew your subject matter. Probably helped that I was a DJ since talking was how I made my living (such as it was) at the time.

Too bad I don't get paid by the word, I'd be rich!

graphicguy · March 2015

Mark....I graduated in the early '80s from Miami (Computer Science). Thought about grad school, but that's as far as I got. I remember WMUB (university's station) and WOXY. But remember listening to WOXR and WEBN growing up.

Loved my years there and actually thought about living in Oxford after graduation. I stayed for a little while, bartending at Mac and Joes. Not much in the way if gainful employment around there, though.

Made a stint out west for awhile but ended up in and around Cincinnati for the last 20+ years.

Small world!

markcincinnati · March 2015

WEBN = We Eliminate Banal Noise.

Those were the days . . .

graphicguy · March 2015

markcincinnati said:
WEBN = We Eliminate Banal Noise.

Those were the days . . .

Tree Frog Beer....Fools Day Parade....Jelly Pudding Show.....King Biscuit Flour Hour.....great radio at the time.

Saw Springsteen and Fleetwood Mac at Millet when I was in high school. First love and first broken heart happened in Oxford. When Western College was still their own University.

I'm betting I probably heard you on the radio at some point.

flightnurse · March 2015

dino001 said:
I generally agree with you, Mark. I AM paying up (of course within limits of my abilities), I WILL NOT buy a car from a lot, just because it is a "better deal", if it doesn't hit my minimum requirements. There is no deal, if one gets not what they want. I also totally understand BMW's move. Calling me a part of "lunatic fringe" is a bit harsh - perhaps "eccentric few" would be more polite . Unfortunately, both average Joe Sixpack and Joseph Broker want a car "today". They can't fathom waiting for one a few weeks. So dealers and manufacturers run their business for those guys' pleasure, not mine. I already feel lucky, when I mention a special order, I get a quick nod from a salesman saying "no problem, all we need is XYZ", rather than more typical deer in headlights looks.

Dino, our CA (Client Adviser) told me that 50% of the their 5, 6 and 7 series buyers order their cars, and less then a 1/3 of them do the ED. When it comes to the 3 and 4 series about 30% order their cars and over half of them do the ED. But that is a small # of 3 series buyers, you might be right that when it comes to the 3 series people want it now...

cdnpinhead · March 2015

markcincinnati said:
WEBN = We Eliminate Banal Noise

Now THAT is ironic.

markcincinnati · March 2015

flightnurse said:

dino001 said:
I generally agree with you, Mark. I AM paying up (of course within limits of my abilities), I WILL NOT buy a car from a lot, just because it is a "better deal", if it doesn't hit my minimum requirements. There is no deal, if one gets not what they want. I also totally understand BMW's move. Calling me a part of "lunatic fringe" is a bit harsh - perhaps "eccentric few" would be more polite . Unfortunately, both average Joe Sixpack and Joseph Broker want a car "today". They can't fathom waiting for one a few weeks. So dealers and manufacturers run their business for those guys' pleasure, not mine. I already feel lucky, when I mention a special order, I get a quick nod from a salesman saying "no problem, all we need is XYZ", rather than more typical deer in headlights looks.
Dino, our CA (Client Adviser) told me that 50% of the their 5, 6 and 7 series buyers order their cars, and less then a 1/3 of them do the ED. When it comes to the 3 and 4 series about 30% order their cars and over half of them do the ED. But that is a small # of 3 series buyers, you might be right that when it comes to the 3 series people want it now...

When I was new to trips to Germany, I would take every opportunity my wife would permit to go into Audi dealerships. I did the same thing on one trip to Zurich. I kept noticing no inventory -- but sometimes quite a showroom.

One trip, I went to the new Audi dealership that is at the Munich airport -- I asked the rep why no inventory? He told me that almost all of the cars they sell are ordered. Almost every Audi (and BMW) that we've had since 1978 have been special order cars. I always thought if you're going to spend ($50K+ in today's $s) and will settle for your third color option and not getting the options you wanted, etc, there must be something wrong with your sense of money. Why pay that much for a car that you wouldn't ever special order, but you'll take it because you can pick it up on Monday?

The 10th (so they say) largest BMW dealer is here in Cincinnait. We have two Audi dealerships, two BMW, three Mercedes, two Porsche, etc etc, stores in our Big Town (almost a small city). I have, many times, attempted to find THE car I wanted in stock -- "can't be done!" My most recent Audi was $57+K and my wife's SQ5 was $65+K. At what level of income does one have to achieve in order to settle for a $60K car that is "sitting on the lot?"

I wanted blind spot monitoring and red leather. I also wanted all-season OEM tires. My wife also wanted blind spot and red leather -- but she wanted metallic black, while I wanted white. I would've probably taken the metallic white Audi offers, but I was very specific in what I wanted as was she.

What I can't imagine is being willing to settle on in-stock inventory, unless the exact vehicle was available or unless the price was hugely discounted. I took my 2012 Acura TL with a black leather interior -- a color I said I would never have (it makes the inside of the car feel small, to me at least, plus it is hotter than hell in the summer and the black seats often fade and look cheap) -- because the price was steeply discounted. What was I thinking? That fugly interior may have contributed to my relatively short time with the thing.

So, here is the other "benefit" of ordering your car: it kind of feels like you get "the new car joy" twice, once when you order it and once a couple of months later when it comes in.

Ordered cars, too, generally cost less than ones from inventory. The reason? The dealer doesn't have to pay the interest on the cars while they sit in inventory -- the dealer has a customer the moment the car comes in. Floorplan costs for your ordered car are likely to be very low.

When I see one of those mega dealerships with a 150 car showroom and a huge (acres) lot -- one so big you have to be shuttled to the location of the car you're going to look at -- I assume someone has to pay for that, and I assume it will be the customers.

The tiny dealer can order the same car as the big guy -- so if you're looking for the best deal, well the dealer that is so big the TV commercials have to be shot from a helicopter, is the one to avoid. Sometimes, Small really is Beautiful.

graphicguy · March 2015

Mark....like you. many times I've bemoaned the fact that the BMW dealers just seem to carry the "middle of the road" colors and options on their cars. My BMW dealer (Sweeney) is a little bit better than the other place as far as having stock that meets my wants closer. But still, it's a struggle to find exactly what I want.

As you noted, the two Audi stores are even worse. Mercedes dealers seem to be a bit better, but I'm not really a fan of their cars. So, outside of helping my sister buy one, and the cursory looks I give them when I'm shopping, I can't mention whether their stock situation is good or not.

I know whenever I've become frustrated with the selection when buying a BMW, my long time sales associate is more than willing to order something. I never have. But, depending on their cycle of ordering, he's said it takes between 4 to 6 weeks from ordering until I'd be picking it up.

I can see the allure for the dealership. No floor plan to pay. It's pretty much a guaranteed sale, getting exactly the car YOU want. And, price is agreed up front (or at least it should be).

I've been to one of the Porsche dealers. Like their cars, but the dealership acted like I was invisible. I passed by two sales offices where the sales person looked up to see me, and ignored me. I passed two in the showroom who wouldn't even make eye contact.

No Porsches for me.

cdnpinhead · March 2015

graphicguy said:
I've been to one of the Porsche dealers. Like their cars, but the dealership acted like I was invisible. I passed by two sales offices where the sales person looked up to see me, and ignored me. I passed two in the showroom who wouldn't even make eye contact.

No Porsches for me.

I had exactly the same experience when I visited a BMW store in Scottsdale in 1999, back when BMWs were BMWs. Haven't darkened the door of a BMW dealership since.

dino001 · March 2015

Why pay that much for a car that you wouldn't ever special order, but you'll take it because you can pick it up on Monday?

That's what I say. I think same principle applies even to much cheaper cars. Considering that they are often even bigger portion of buyer's income (i.e. price of Ford Focus is most likely higher percentage of their buyer's income than those buying new 3- or 5-series; not always, but more often than not).

I never understood American "have to have it today" culture. Ironically, the need for instant gratification, today considered a "core American value", is a far departure from thrift and patience were virtues preached by the first settlers, but that's another story. As I was saying many times before, part of my attraction of German brands to me is the real ability to get something that's in the catalogue. The salesmen never complain, never roll their eyes, or repeatedly attempt to sell you what's there here and now. I consider a single proposal acceptable, what I hate is a hard push against clearly expressed customer's wish. Many other brands have "phantom" configurations, options and packages that can be specified together as "available", but not really available - not just not in stock, but simply not possible to get, even with waiting. When ask, you get this blank stare, like you just arrived from another planet. Some dealers would pretend to take an order and then try to fit what they have in the pipeline. Two months later, you get a phone call: there is one coming, just your color and option X, but it has a sunroof that you didn't ask for, is that OK? I've seen that too many times.

My only beef with German brand dealers, is that there are some options that truly change the car's characteristics, but not available in stock. Case in point - BMW 3 and 4 series have this adaptive M-sport suspension, which may or may not be a good thing. It is the only way to get a sport suspension on their AWD models, where Sport and M-Sport lines are only decorative aesthetic options (as opposed to RWD models, where sport suspension is added). I'm still yet to see any car in stock with that option. So should I want an X-drive car (e.g. wagon or GT models comes only with that that), I'd like to know how that adaptive M-sport suspension would work, if it's worth that extra thousand bucks, or not. I can't. Well, I'll live, I guess. Most likely I'll get RWD 4-series with Sport Line, anyway.

dino001 · March 2015

graphicguy said:

Mark....like you. many times I've bemoaned the fact that the BMW dealers just seem to carry the "middle of the road" colors and options on their cars. (...)

I can see the allure for the dealership. No floor plan to pay. It's pretty much a guaranteed sale, getting exactly the car YOU want. And, price is agreed up front (or at least it should be).

I think that's the price we pay for much lower price point on those cars. As you may know, Europeans pay often more than double for the same vehicles. I checked it - literally my $46K MSRP wagon in 2013 would have been around $100K over there. At that level, volumes must be significantly lower, but the choices are much bigger. Rather than three engines, you get something like eight. Interior comes both bundled and unbundled, same thing with convenience and performance options. Our option sheet for a model is three-four pages, theirs are fifty-page books. We enjoy lower price at expense of choices, limited even further by dealers catering to our own instant culture. They can be very particular, what to buy, but they pay for that privilege. To each their own, I guess.

BTW, there are similar market differences in electronics. When I was first buying some audio equipment (long time ago), I was struck how little choice was there in a big box store, despite all that square footage in comparison with a typical European store, especially in "above entry level, below upscale" category.

flightnurse · March 2015

I was talking to our CA yesterday he was informing me that BMW has not released their ED allocation yet for the 2016 MY (something I already knew.) Chapman BMW has 2 2014 328i GT, both with M sport package, both equipped the same way. chapmanbmw.com/Phoenix-BMW-3-Series-2014-BMW-328i+xDrive+Gran+Turismo-440868.htm Our CA was telling me that we can get the car for 9K off MSRP plus the additional $1500 for in stock unit, then add the $1K rebate from BMWNA for being a BMWCCA member, Its a nice offer, but the car has black interior, the exterior is the Estoril Blue Metallic. Rick does not want Black interior living here in the SW that is the last color one wants to have.

What I find interesting is, the CA say's, the GM orders the cars based on what people buy, this makes sense, however, I told him if the GM only orders cars with black interior and people purchase what is in stock does that really mean that black interior is what they want? Most of the 3 series they have in stock has, black interior, I would beat that many who purchase 2 and 3 series do not know they can order their cars and of course the CA's are going to say anything about as they do not make money until the car is delivered.

Now on a side note, my CA informed that BMW has raised the residual on the 5 series from 60% to 64% on all 5 series excluding M5's, So this means you can get into a 5 series for less then $500/m on a 36 month lease.

nyccarguy · March 2015

flightnurse said:
I was talking to our CA yesterday he was informing me that BMW has not released their ED allocation yet for the 2016 MY (something I already knew.) Chapman BMW has 2 2014 328i GT, both with M sport package, both equipped the same way. chapmanbmw.com/Phoenix-BMW-3-Series-2014-BMW-328i+xDrive+Gran+Turismo-440868.htm Our CA was telling me that we can get the car for 9K off MSRP plus the additional $1500 for in stock unit, then add the $1K rebate from BMWNA for being a BMWCCA member, Its a nice offer, but the car has black interior, the exterior is the Estoril Blue Metallic. Rick does not want Black interior living here in the SW that is the last color one wants to have.

What I find interesting is, the CA say's, the GM orders the cars based on what people buy, this makes sense, however, I told him if the GM only orders cars with black interior and people purchase what is in stock does that really mean that black interior is what they want? Most of the 3 series they have in stock has, black interior, I would beat that many who purchase 2 and 3 series do not know they can order their cars and of course the CA's are going to say anything about as they do not make money until the car is delivered.

Now on a side note, my CA informed that BMW has raised the residual on the 5 series from 60% to 64% on all 5 series excluding M5's, So this means you can get into a 5 series for less then $500/m on a 36 month lease.

a $52K 3er without Xenon Headlights? Hmmm. How cheap are they willing to lease the car?

carnaught · March 2015

It's amazing how many black, white and silver Bimmers with black, occasional beige with light beige carpet interiors they have in stock, same with Audis. To me, bland.

roadburner · March 2015

carnaught said:
It's amazing how many black, white and silver Bimmers with black, occasional beige with light beige carpet interiors they have in stock, same with Audis. To me, bland.

I've mentioned that to my sales guy and he said he prefers more interesting colors as well- but bland colors are what the buyers want. Boring.

markcincinnati · March 2015

When we ordered my wife's two X3's we did order the sport seats, the sport steering wheel, etc -- we also got sport wheels with +1" wheel size and wide and lower profile tires.

Two things struck me:

#1 if you get the package with the sport steering wheel, you can't have the wheel heated.

#2 no matter what "sport" option you selected, there was nothing that changed the calibration or ride height -- i.e., there was no sport suspension. The best you could do to sport the thing up was the bigger wheels and tires, which do help somewhat -- but the overall suspension is the same with or without the sport options.

Audi has a package they call "SLine" that is or was available -- and it did (on the A4 at least) offer sport seats, +size wheels and tires and lower ride height, stiffer springs, struts and thicker anti-roll bars (front and reat). Sometimes they even included a special steering wheel but they did include paddle shifters too when one ticked off the "SLine" option.

I see the A6, too, can be had with an all season or summer only sport package which does alter the suspension to "sport" calibration.

According to the special brochure, Audi's S cars have "special S tuned" suspensions which I believe our friends over on AudiWorld.com say is different from the sport package offered on the A4 and A6.

Why BMW chose NOT to offer a sport suspension on their X-drive cars is a mystery to me -- they surely must have the technical know how to engineer it, one would think.

Tires contribute to the cars handling, doh!, you already knew that. So, here is something you can do that you may find has value to you. When you order a new Audi S4 with the all-season tire option, it comes with 18" wheels and 40 series tires. The optional tire package comes with 19" wheels and 35 series tires.

The all-season tires are H rated grand touring Continentals or other Name Brand all-season tires. When you graduate to the 19" wheels, the tires are Z rated (at least) and could be Continentals -- but they are MaxPerformance tires.

The difference, here in America, at least is that the Continental tires are "good," but unless kept inflated to at least 42 pounds, they are built for comfort, not for performance. Why Audi chose H rated tires is beyond me.

When ordering the 19", the tires are summer only rubber that helps the car go like a snake in a rat hole when compared with the H rated grand touring rubber.

So, what you can do, if you are an American who doesn't need or won't swap out tires twice per year, is go ahead and get the all seasons that come with the thing and upgrade (it is called +Zero) to a wider, lower profile Ultra high performance tire that will fit on the 18" wheels -- or you can keep the same size tires but get UHP all-seasons. The difference is not subtle -- the car's willingness to turn in is cranked up to 11, it then really does go like a snake in a rat hole, and you won't be obliged to swap out your tires semi-annually.

Here's the deal, I THINK: European manufacturers, attempting to cater to American tastes, try to err on the side of comfort, quietness and durability beyond 25,000 miles. In doing so, I think they go too far. Why would Audi (for example) put H rated Grand-Touring tires on an "S" (not SLine) vehicle? I replaced ours with W rated UHP DWS Continentials (all season, Dry Wet, Snow), inflated the fronts to 43 and the rears to 41 -- transformation!

With virtual mass customization the norm these days, why not offer Grand Touring, All-Season Ultra High Performance and Summer only Maximun Performance tire options on the order form and be done with it?

Or at least think: BMW "M" is supposed to be more than an emblem or decal, more than trim and bling; likewise "S" (for Audi) is supposed to be a special version of a given Audi model, that includes sport: seats, exhaust, suspension, steering wheel and pedal covers, AND (one would think) TIRES. Somehow both Audi and BMW have an incomplete circuit somewhere that seems to prevent the inclusion of all of the required ingredients that go along with the notion of a "sport model" designation.

Let's see what Volvo and Mercedes offer . . . . hmm?

dino001 · March 2015

Why BMW chose NOT to offer a sport suspension on their X-drive cars is a mystery to me -- they surely must have the technical know how to engineer it, one would think.

They do - it's called M-Sport Adaptive suspension, sold together with variable sport steering as Dynamic Handling Package priced at $1000 for 3- and 4- series. On X3, they're selling same name package with somewhat different content.

carnaught · March 2015

I've mentioned that to my sales guy and he said he prefers more interesting colors as well- but bland colors are what the buyers want. Boring.

Oh, horse feathers! If it is true it's because most buyers don't want to take the time and effort to order, and they'll settle for what's in stock. They want immediate gratification.

At least, in the case of our A4, although it's a pearlescent white, the interior being beige came with the rare dark brown carpeting matching the dark wood in the car, a nice combo.

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