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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Nope, but the well looks large enough for a couple of cans of goo. ;)
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    edited September 2010
    I provided facts about the 3-Series not having the best highway mpg; by the way, those vehicles are the 3-Series competitors in price, features, size in some cases, etc if you do not think so then you do not know the entry-lux segment well at all: you can come up with all the excuses why your right but guess what, no one cares

    You can use all the personal anecdotes you want from your own personal experience for mpg but what comes down to comparing between vehicles is what the epa and manufacturers say their fuel ratings are: why don't you provide a link about manufacturer discrepancies in mpg; I think its a bunch of bull b/c if anything, in the last 10 years, the epa and manufacturer mpg estimates have gotten pretty accurate a cross the board, compared to before that time, and I've seen this pretty consistently supported on all the personal avgs I've seen people report on the various auto boards I belong to; if you don't want to believe that, its your own problem.

    you can't say that no one cars about personal reports of people's mpg experiences but then its okay to take the numbers reported personally from a group of a few dozen or a few hundreds, which is what your saying; its still not that big of a population size compared to the tens of thousands or hundred of thousand owners of these vehicles

    There is no need to provide links and stats for my statement about prestige being a factor in BMW and MB purchases. This is real easy but you seem to not understand nor would I provide links since your going to just dismiss them and thus waste my time.

    1) German vehicles have lower resale values then their Japanese counterparts (look at ALG for that one)
    2) On a whole, the German manufacturers still do not have the long-term reliability and less problems their Japanese counterparts have ON AVERAGE (look at CR long-term reliability history charts specifically). Can also say, the chance of getting a problem littered German vehicle is still slightly higher than the chance of getting a problem littered Japanese vehicle
    3) similar equipped BMW/MB and Japanese vehicles do not cost the same amount with the Germans having a few thousand price premium (just build them on each website with same equipment to find this out)

    Those 3 FACTS indicate that, SIMILARLY EQUIPPED Japanese vs German luxury vehicles are giving the Japanese a better financial decision to get. But, there are a lot of people not choosing the Japanese vehicle and opting for the more expensive, more depreciating, higher chance possibility of problem littered German vehicle. Some people making that decision HAVE to be doing based on the prestige/ reputation factor that MB and BMW have.

    Now, as you conveniently leave out every post you respond to and don't say, I've said time and time again, not ALL people are making that decision based on prestige, though you are trying to make it out that is what I'm saying; I've said before, some are making that decision for other reasons, like performance advantage, luxury comfort factors, etc but prestige is a factor. Maybe its not called prestige, maybe its called something else, you can make up your own word, I don't care, just get over it.

    Again, you took my comment out of context that I said at the end of my post to try and make it appear I'm anti-German and that couldn't be further from the truth
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,853
    If you want a real sport sedan experience, you need three components(manual is a given):
    1 - RWD
    2 - Inline engine, preferably an I-6 or turbo 4 180-200HP minimum.
    3 - curb weight under 3000lbs. Preferably 2800.


    My 318ti Club Sport comes close; 2700 lbs. and 150 bhp. In a few years I'm going to fit a stroker motor that will up the power to around 220 bhp. I have to say I really like light tossable cars- my old 2002 may be a tad bit slow but with less than 2400 lbs. to carry around it is a real blast on a winding road.

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "Those 3 FACTS indicate that, SIMILARLY EQUIPPED Japanese vs German luxury vehicles are giving the Japanese a better financial decision to get."

    The problem I see with this statement is that they are not similarly equipped.

    I know you're talking about heated this, and bluetooth that, but much of the value in a European car is not in the bells and whistles, it's in the engineering.

    I can go to KMart and buy a wood veneer dining room set for $500 that looks and functions a lot like a $2000 Ethan Allen set. Which one is the better value?

    I guess it all comes down to how much "value" one places in having an in-line 6 engine, superb steering feel, and near-perfect chassis balance vs. 19" wheels, iPod integration, and a 30GB hard drive.

    I know which features I prefer...

    And, by the way, the days of the true "sport sedan" are long gone and not coming back. But this thread isn't about sport sedans anyways - it's about entry-level luxury sport sedans. Big difference. Mentioning sport sedans in this thread is simply off-topic.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,775
    edited September 2010
    I just lament the growth in size of these vehicles. I have an '05 TL and it is bigger than I like. My next car is going to be smaller. IMHO the new TSX is also way too big.

    I had a '98 A4 and it was just fabulous. But even that car has bloated up.

    I know it is OT, but have you seen the ugliness and the increased size of the new Jetta? OMG. :surprise:
  • I have only been reviewing this thread for a short time but I find this statement interesting...

    "Those 3 FACTS indicate that, SIMILARLY EQUIPPED Japanese vs German luxury vehicles are giving the Japanese a better financial decision to get"

    If you are only looking dollars and cents, then a Honda provides what your acura does at a lower price

    This whole line of bantering is silly any way - the best car is each of our opinion. I have had my car over 2 years now and it puts a smile on my face every morning - as long as your car puts a smile on your face each morning, then in fact you have the best car.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Well, the 180HP was considering a 3000lb weight. the RX8 does hit these numbers as does a first generation Altima with manual(oddly enough), so making a car this size that's this light isn't impossible. I'll trade a few hundred pounds of padding and sound insulation and fluff any day for handling. Shoot, my old truck is so loud you can't hear yourself hardly think. I think part of it is that BMW and Mercedes and the rest are stressing cocoon-like isolation over performance.

    My favorite sports sedan from the "classic" era was the 1983 Volvo 242 Group-A turbo("Flathood"). I sat in one about 20 years back and was shocked at how fast it moved. I mean, compared to stuff like a Camaro doing 8 or 10 seconds, it ran like a fire was under its rear end.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGHogwVJ1Nc&feature=related
    Almost 30 years old and WHY can't we get at least this good today, given modern materials and technology? Remember, this car cost 18K or so back then. So even adjusted for inflation, it's the same price as a base 3 series today.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    This is exactly why E30's are still so popular and in demand, and why so many enthusiasts who got excited about the 1-series were ultimately so disappointed by it.

    I'm waiting, but I still haven't found a worthy successor for my E30 M3. As long as I can get parts for it, I'm keeping it.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,310
    IMHO the new TSX is also way too big.

    I absolutely agree, which is why I'm so pleased to have slipped in just under the wire to buy one of the last of the previous versions -- besides which, it has no beak.
  • pv2pv2 Posts: 37
    I'm keeping my 2007 TL-S because it handles very well due to its lighter weight vs. the "beaky" new TL. Handles great and am averaging 21 mpg long term. Also, acceleration is better than even the 305hp SH-AWD.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    edited September 2010
    That was what I was talking about, similarly equipped vehicles, same options, equipment, features, engine sizes, etc and it is possible to build a German and Japanese vehicle pretty similarly with equipment, the only difference is going to be the total price on the window.

    I do agree with you about the value of German engineering and as I mentioned before, that is definitely a factor when purchasing one of their vehicles for many people, myself included. I would have not tried that Mercedes a few years ago if it wasn't. At least in my case, prestige did play a part in getting that MB because in conjunction with the luxury precision comfort MB's are known for. It except for 2 things covered under warranty, I really enjoyed that MB and it sure the heck was more reliable then the Caddy I had.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    Have to agree with most of what you say. My whole point is that it comes down to choices in the luxury market and as you pointed out yourself, it all comes down to what each persona personally is looking for in a luxury vehicle. If it is the best bang for your buck (financially) then its going to be Japanese vehicle, if its fine tuned mechanical and performance engineering its going to be a German vehicle and so on and so on depending on the specific features and characteristics your looking for.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited October 2010
    "That was what I was talking about, similarly equipped vehicles, same options, equipment, features, engine sizes, etc and it is possible to build a German and Japanese vehicle pretty similarly with equipment, the only difference is going to be the total price on the window."

    My point is that you cannot get them "similarly equipped." You cannot get an Acura or Infinity with an in-line 6 engine. The VQ is a thrashy mess, and the Acura V6 is fine, but it's no inline.

    Now the I-4 in the TSX is a sweet engine - especially when mated to their excellent 6-speed manual. If it had been RWD, I'd probably still be driving it...
  • gbosilgbosil Posts: 88
    BMWs and Mercedes are "TAXIES" in Europe. I rest my case. :P I don't see any Acura Taxies running around here in the states!
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    And your point is?
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,913
    edited October 2010
    That Europe has really nice taxis, and people there like to get where they're going... FAST. :)

    (it shouldn't be surprising considering those are European manufacturers, and Acura isn't.)

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  • alltorquealltorque Posts: 535
    And the vast majority, (if not all), of those BMW and Mercedes Taxis are, of course, diesels.. The Mercedes E300D is a particular favourite with Brussels taxi drivers, (from memory), and they are really rather quick............"Time is money, m'sieur and the fare is the same whether it takes 10 minutes or 20 minutes. So.............."

    Fun days and dicing with the trams was a great way to become fully alert on the way to the office of a morning.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    edited October 2010
    Hmmm, I've ridden in many-many taxi cab in Europe and I'd say that only a little over half are diesel. In Paris I'm thinking the number is closer to 90%, in Munich maybe only 30% to 40%. Said another way, it varies dramatically depending upon where you are.

    As for being nice and fast, yup, I rode in a brand spankin' new E320D a few years ago from the 8th Arrondissement to CDG at about five in the morning. The cabbie was justifiably proud of his new ride and absolutely nailed it when we got on the Péripherique; we were moving north of 160 kph (100 mph) in no time. :)
  • Beak is good- it intimidates the car in front of you, also its my favorite part of the car to put on my Zaino shine.:)
  • pv2pv2 Posts: 37
    Many European taxis that I've ridden in (Mercedes, etc.) are deisels, but some are also seriously de-contented to keep the price down (vinyl seats, etc.). The German brands promote an upscale image in the US and only ship their luxury versions here; the ones at home need to be competitive with mid-range cars in Germany.
  • gbosilgbosil Posts: 88
    edited October 2010
    Let me re-phrase... what I ment was... In Japan "Acuras" are not taxies and Toyotas are ;) Basically there used to be a prestige about BMW and Mercedes years ago only a select few individuals "accomplished" individuals could afford one... today they are a dime a dozen and mass produced. I see them everywhere. If you want to spend 17K more on a 528i vs the TL-SHAWD just to say " hey look at me I drive a bimmer" go ahead you fool! Thats you own perog. As soon as you dive it off the lot it's now worth 49K vs 60K and the depreciation on a BMW is just wicked! I just test drove the new 2011 5 series at my local BMW dealer... not impressed with the 60K+ price tag and ride quality. In fact the new look doesn't impress me either. Just can't justify it over a Acura or Lexus in terms of reliability, value, resale and similar quality. The Germans still have many ELECTRICAL problems to sort out. Read consumer reports talk to people who own them. Oh... and by the way.. CHECK THEIR LABOR RATES! YIKES!!!!!! :surprise:
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    edited October 2010
    Dude, there ARE NO ACURAs in Japan. Why? Because Acura is exclusive to North America. That said, a number of years ago I rode in a "Honda Legend" taxi in Osaka, a car that was identical to the Acura Legend of its day here in the U.S.

    As for calling folks "Fools", if you want a flame war, keep it up. Personally I wouldn't be caught dead in a TL-SHAWD, its a nose heavy sled for poseurs. You want a real car, stop looking at Acura.

    There, back at'cha. :P
  • gbosilgbosil Posts: 88
    Listen. you are wrong. there are Acuras in Japan I was just there in Tokyo and saw quite a few running around. Sorry to strike a nerve... not here to start any war just making my point heard under "free speeech and my opinon." BMWs and Mercedes are nothing but mass produced cars... period. :)
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,913
    edited October 2010
    "free speech"? Were you under the impression that you have a Constitutional guarantee of "free speech" on these Forums? Just a question....

    And no, we aren't going to start a war, at least not one that gets personal. That doesn't work for us.

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  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    edited October 2010
    There may be Acura's in Japan but they weren't sold there. To date, Honda has yet to market the Acura brand in Japan, that said, they have expanded the brand to include Mexico, Hong Kong, and China.

    As for BMWs and Mercedes-Benzs being "mass-produced", so? What's your point? All cars with the exception of a few exotics are "mass-produced"; the difference is that some companies imbue their cars with better design and engineering than others. With the lone exceptions of the NSX and the S2000, I've yet to see a Honda product that measures up (class for class) to any Benz or BMW.
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,853
    And to think that I've wasted the past 27 years driving BMWs- when all that time I could have been driving re-badged Hondas... :cry:

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    edited October 2010
    The I4 in the TSX is a loud obnoxious engine which gets piss pour mpg for an engine its size and displacement when there are I4s coming out now with the same and even better gas mileage then the TSX I4 and ones that don't sound like a V8 engine at idle; Acura really needs to begin working on their I4 engines because they are behind in their game compared to everyone else in that department among others

    Sure you can get them similar equipped I guess you've just failed to try and build them properly

    the only thing that is wrong with the VQ is its noise level at idle sometimes; it is one of the best performance oriented engine I've ever had and still kills the Acura V6s for performance and acceleration!. Might becoming to an end though if MB has its way in the partnership.
  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    The Germans still have many ELECTRICAL problems to sort out. Read consumer reports talk to people who own them.

    I have an '01 BMW 330i that I bought in June of that year - more than 9 years ago - & I've had exactly zero electrical problems to date.

    Also, I'm looking at the 2010 Consumer Reports auto issue as I write this. (I've subscribed to CR for over 30 years, BTW.) CR rates the 3-series BMW as "better than average" & the 5-series as "average". (The 5 gets a lower rating because of problems with its sound system.) For both cars, CR rates the core systems - engine, cooling, transmission, fuel & electrical - as either "better than average" or "much better than average".

    In fact, the frequency of repair ratings for late-model BMW 3s are just about identical to those for recent Acura TLs.

    Oh... and by the way.. CHECK THEIR LABOR RATES! YIKES!!!!!!

    I don't know about you, but after the factory warranty expires, I don't go back to the dealer. Why would anyone do that? I use an excellent independent mechanic, who takes care of my wife's Lexus, my BMW & our Honda CR-V. So I can say quite truthfully that I don't pay a higher labor rate for my BMW than I do for our 2 Japanese cars.
  • gbosilgbosil Posts: 88
    No... I realize that. ha ha ha . . . Just stirring the pot a bit... I guess it worked! :surprise:
  • gbosilgbosil Posts: 88
    edited October 2010
    Huh... :confuse: interesting... got my 2010 Consumer Reports Car Buying guide in front of me right now.... see an awful lot of BLACK dots for BMWs.... hummmm lookin' over at the Acura side wow to my surprise an awful lot of reds! CR Best Buys and Recommended TL, TSX, MDX . .. . etc...........................
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