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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    I don't need to be chastised b/c you don't agree with my assessment but I have much more experience then you do with both vehicles so give me a break. Your logic about the $$$$ factor makes no sense at all either. This coming from a guy who at the max (no pun intended) only test drove each vehicles for 10 minutes each. I test drove each vehicle 3 times and had a G as a loaner many times when my FX was in for routine maintenance.

    I actually agree with you that the Maxima is not a true 4DSC in its current set-up and that is not the fault of the car itself but Nissan's stupid marketing schemes which they still don't get but that is another subject. I don't think anybody but you placed it in the entry-level lux sedan segment b/c I sure as didn't say it was. It is classified typically as an upscale or premium sedan.

    Your comments tell me that you don't have a clue when it comes to either of these vehicles b/c the Maxima is not the same price as a G37. As I stated earlier, no one is paying near sticker for a fully loaded Maxima. Typically you can get one for $33-35k when its all said and done, while a G37 does not have as big of a reduction. I have seen most people getting them for $37-40k depending on how its loaded up. That's still a difference and price and there are many luxury sedan features your getting in the cheaper Maxima that you can't even get in the G sedan even loaded all the way up.

    Is the fit and finish the same as the G, of course not, but it doesn't pale in comparison as you claim it to be. Its the best interior Nissan has had on the Maxima ever and that says a lot considering the interior's they had pre 2007.

    I was worried that there wouldn't be a market for the new Max but there is and the sales success of it prove it. There are big differences between the Altima and Maxima now that warrants the higher price of the Max and its more refined in every way, I should know, I cross-shopped that as well with the Maxima. As I said, the Maxima has found a market niche as a sporty family sedan that can get great mpg for the power.

    Now if Infiniti ever decided to bring back a FWD sedan or coupe then your argument might have more value.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    I don't think the situation is quite as simple as your explanation suggests. The Maxima used to be quite a sporty car relative to its competition in the market place, however, Nissan saw fit to supplant the Maxima in that market space with Infiniti G series while at the same time tarting up the Maxima to the point where only the barest smidgen of sporting intention remains. Did the tarting up process drive stick buyers away or did the lack of stick buyers force Nissan to tart the car up and take it into a different market segment? I suspect the former.

    Long story short, the Maxima is no longer qualified to compete in this segment, a segment of which it was a firm stake holder early in its earlier iterations.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    Well there are over 60,000 some people in 2010 that would disagree with you and at it stands it sells the best of any mainstream flagship sedan does.

    Problem with you logic is, the cars the Maxima competes with, Avalon, Azera Impala, Taurus, etc are not as sporty as the Maxima is and have sales not even close to it, except for the Impala which is just rent a car fodder. Its the sportiness for the competition in the market place it has right NOW.

    Is it has sporty as it used to be, no, but there is more than just a smidgen of sportiness left. The body style screams sport, the exhaust note screams sport, the acceleration is incredible, ride quality is definitely not Lexus cushy and gear toward the feedback side, and for FWD, it handles very responsively compared to the other FWD flagship sedans it competes with.

    I love how everyone says the maxima has no market and can't compete yet sales prove you completely wrong, especially if you compared it to the big/bloaty boat the previous generation was and sales failure it was. This generation at least started going back in the right direction after where it had been from 2004-2008. It blends family sedan comfort with some sporty driving characteristics. Something that both the Altima and G37 do not both due at the same time. The G37 is complete sports car while the Altima is a boring comfortable family sedan. The Maxima bridges some of the characteristics of each of those cars nicely.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    edited January 2011
    So sixty thousand customers makes the Maxima a contender in this category; how do you figure? True, it is sportier than an Impala; so what?

    Exhaust note? Geez, I've heard late model Cadillac land yachts that sound better. Even still, since when was exhaust note a metric for measuring sportiness? Wait-wait, I know; it's a measure among the crowd that likes to put far can mufflers on their tiny little econo cars. :P

    Acceleration? Here again, not exactly an attribute that is the exclusive domain of sporty cars. I mean really, a Dodge Ram pick-up with a Hemi in it will handily show its taillights to a Maxima.

    Long story short, the Maxima has been bloated up to be a nice grand touring car, nicer than Impalas and the like, but not a very good competitor to the cars that make up this class. I know you disagree, but even with those sixty-thousand souls in your back pocket, you're still not going to sell your argument.
  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    Well there are over 60,000 some people in 2010 that would disagree with you and at it stands it sells the best of any mainstream flagship sedan does.

    If you go back & read Shipo's post, you'll note that nowhere in it did he say that the Maxima isn't a strong seller - only that it's no longer considered a sport sedan as it once was.

    Problem with you[sic] logic is, the cars the Maxima competes with, Avalon, Azera Impala, Taurus, etc are not as sporty as the Maxima is and have sales not even close to it, except for the Impala which is just rent a car fodder.

    I don't see a problem with Shipo's logic here. If the Maxima's chief competition comes from cars that aren't perceived as sporty, then it would logically follow from that fact that the Maxima itself is not perceived as sporty.

    I love how everyone says the maxima has no market and can't compete yet sales prove you completely wrong

    Once again, Shipo's argument doesn't rest on sales numbers.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    edited January 2011
    It's simple my friend. If there wasn't a market for it as you and other stated and it doesn't compete well in its class competition then it shouldn't sell well. Problem is it sells very well as I pointed out and almost every review I have read states its a huge improvement over the last generation Maxima.

    Do you hear an loud exhaust note on a Camry? and Accord? a Altima? a Avalon? no you don't. That's because there isn't anything sporty about them. Only vehicles that have sporty pretensions and characteristics would do that. Why would a manufacturer waste the time to design and do that if it wasn't suppose to sound aggressive? B/c they want it to have sporty characteristics.

    Acceleration, looks, handling, ride, etc are not attributes that make a sporty car? Your definition of what makes a sporty vehicle is puzzling to say the least.

    A Dodge Ram pick up with a Hemi in it will handily show it's taillights to a Maxima; so what? I would expect it to. Now your going off on crazy vehicle and engines comparisons. Talk about going all over the place.

    Actually, the Maxima has been decreased in size compared to its previous generation so it hasn't been bloated up. I'm puzzled as to what you think are the cars that make up this class? Since the Maxima is a premium mainstream flagship sedan then that is what class it is apart of. That means the car's in its class is the Impala, Taurus, Azera, and Avalon. It outsells and performs all those vehicles.

    Bottom line is, you don't even know what class of car the Maxima is in, despite the fact it is in the mainstream flagship sedan class, sells better than its competition, and is more aggressive and unique then those other vehicles as well. It's class has changed compared to 10 and 15 years ago and so has the rest of the car market. Infiniti didn't even have anything sporty 10-15 years ago so even with in Nissan itself there are different vehicles that they have to be careful they don't compete against. Your logic and others makes no sense that a car that sells as well as the Maxima does has no market and is not a good competitor for its class. Even with your put downs and contradictions, your still not going to sell your argument.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    edited January 2011
    I never said the Maxima was a sports sedan. I said it was sporty family sedan or put it another way, a family sedan with sport/aggressive characteristics.

    Actually his argument can rest on sales numbers him and others said that its not class competitive and there is no need or market for it. Sales numbers prove that there is a market for it or people wouldn't buy it in the numbers that they are.

    Second, saying that b/c the Maxima's chief competition come from cars that are not sporty thus making the Maxima itself not perceived as sporty is just a gross generalization and to me isn't logical b/c in each car class their is always one or two vehicles that are different or an exception in certain characteristics then others. That's what makes test driving so important since the Maxima is very different with its driving dynamics then the others in the mainstream flagship class. That is the class the Maxima is in now, and it competes extremely well. I don't care what class it was in 10 or 15 years ago. Have to accept that is has changed to what it is today.

    Take the entry-level lux class for instance. An ES350, C-Class, IS, A4 and Lacrosse are more on the dull, less sporty side of vehicles but the 3-Series and G37 are the polar opposite of that. That would make a huge assumption about those sport sedan vehicles that b/c its in a class with a majority of less sporty (or luxury focus vehicles) they are not sport sedans as well. That of course would be a wrong assumption just like it is about a Maxima not having sporty driving characteristics.
  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    edited January 2011
    Your logic and others makes no sense that a car that sells as well as the Maxima does has no market and is not a good competitor for its class. Even with your put downs and contradictions, your[sic] still not going to sell your argument.

    Do you own a Maxima? If so, do you like it? If you do, why does it matter to you what Shipo, I or anyone else thinks of it?

    It's clear from your last couple of posts that you're getting a bit excited. (You're making some spelling & grammar goofs that you probably wouldn't make otherwise.) Calm down. We're talking about cars here - not the things that are really worth arguing about: books, music & single-malt scotch.

    Just relax & have some fun.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    edited January 2011
    If you had read the posts from the last day you would have seen that I had mentioned I had gotten a Maxima. I was trying to offer advice and information for the OP who wanted to know the difference between the G37 and Maxima since he was considering the two vehicles.

    Since I have the new Max and I test drove and weighed it heavily against the G37, I thought I could provide some valuable insight into the differences between the two vehicles since I made a similar decision and what the pros and cons of each vehicle was. That is what I tried to do.

    Instead, I got criticized by several people for my comments and comparisons and got multiple put downs on my choice of vehicle and was told that it was not class competitive and there is no market for it :confuse: Very puzzling statements considering its sales numbers and how the market/class segment it now occupies has changed very much from what it was 10-15 years ago.
  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    Instead, I got criticized by several people for my comments and comparisons and got multiple put downs on my choice of vehicle and was told that it was not class competitive and there is no market for it

    Well, I did reread the posts that you're referring to & I can't find any that criticize you personally for driving a Maxima. Shipo merely pointed out that the latest generation Max isn't available with a stick & that in his eyes it's not as sporty as the earlier versions. All he was doing was expressing his opinion, which he has a right to do, & you went after him with a shotgun. You're too thin-skinned.

    I'm going to pull rank on you - you've been a member only since '09, but I've been here since '98 - & suggest that you calm down & have a little fun. We're here to entertain ourselves - nothing more. If someone actually learns something along the way, that's frosting on the cake, but that's not what attracts us in the 1st place. In my case, I can't go outside - not before my wife finishes shoveling the snow that fell last night - there's nothing good on TV & it's too early to start drinking. (This all sounds familiar. Didn't I point this out to you once before?)

    No matter what you drive, someone, somewhere will have an opinion about it that you won't like. Shrug it off.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,870
    Most excellent advice.
    No one's criticizing your children, your profession, your intellect - they're expressing a different opinion about whether your car is a class leader. Even if you post ONE more time that it sells well, the opinion will continue to differ. I've been around for ages as well, and I have yet to see anyone berated and argued into submitting to another member's opinion - I've seen them respond to fact, but opinion? No.

    The Hyundai Sonata is selling extremely well. Does that make it an ELLPS? No. That fact in no way detracts from the vehicles sales or appeal, but sales numbers do not indicate anything about the car apart from its appeal to consumers. Period.

    Let's avoid turning this discussion, and a very minor point within that discussion, into the Middle East conflict.

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  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    I personally think the Maxima is a nice car. It just isn't an ELLPS and doesn't warrant so much real estate in this forum.

    Maybe you should create a new thread: Maxima vs. LaCrosse vs. Taurus vs. Genesis.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,870
    The good news is that such a thread already exists:
    Mainstream Large Sedans

    It's not been active in awhile, but perhaps, as with many general discussions, it would see new life & activity with an on-topic post to stimulate conversation.

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  • thanks smarty666 for your replies to my Maxima question, you have been very helpful. I feel responsible for this thread turning heated! my only intention was to get some feedback from members here who have shopped for the Max VS the Infiniti, the same as I have been doing.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    edited January 2011
    That was what I was trying to do in the first place, give you information to try and help make a decision. It basically comes down to this, both vehicles serve two different purposes, one is not vastly superior to the other, it all depends on what your personal situation is and what one fits your needs and driving style better. That is what I made the decision on when I was choosing between the two.
  • I never saw new Maxima in person. Nissan evidently does not want to participate in autoshows. Last one in San Jose for some reason had Infinitis on display, but not Nissans. I saw Maxima on the road though and it has presence while G looks kind of cartoonish and funny with strange proportions. Anyway Infinity G is spacious inside at least for me, but it is like compact car in back and has smallish trunk - but it has RWD after all. So it is not efficient as a family car.

    Well what I actually wanted to say that I went to Nissan website and took a look. Agree - interior does not look like luxury car but is pleasant enough. The point I want to make is that I compared it with closest competitors - Buick Regal and Lincoln MKZ - all they are similar in every dimensions and purpose. It does not look like competitor to Avalon or Taurus which are larger cars.

    Then I went to truecar.com and configured Maxima with all options and got price around $33,600 in Bay area - almost 6K discount from sticker price. Similarly equipped entry level luxury cars, like A4, MKZ, G37 cost around 36K-37K according to truecar.com. Regal is priced similar to Maxima with 2.0T turbo engine. BTW A4 has engine similar to Buick and MKZ as engine similar to Maxima, but better interior quality. And I guess Buick is to A4 (both are German cars) same as Maxima to G. With exception that it has better exterior design and higher quality interior than Maxima. I would certainly test drive and compare Regal to Maxima, Regal may prove to be more sporty car after all (though Opel never had this kind reputation) and it is certainly more elegant. If you do not like G - CTS is most logical choice - it cost same 36k options but with 3.0L engine. True there is G25 Journey - but it is decontented car, it costs less. BMW is even smaller car than G and Lexus IS is smaller yet.

    I remember comparos where Maxima lost to Dodge Charger in its spoting intentions. Nissan after all is a large FWD car. I drove previous Maxima - it was smaller but no more sporty than base Mustang. I do not know from where sport-sedan notion comes from when people talk about Maxima. People use sport-sedan notion too often. I heard even Sonata called sport sedan which is absolutely ridiculous.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    edited January 2011
    It is worth noting as well that the CTS is almost as good as a BMW 5 series in hard driving.(that said, 99% of us won't even get to those limits for either car) That base 3.0 is quite nice, and the 3.6 isn't really necessary. The interior as well is almost identical to an Acura or Audi in how well it's thought out and how nice it is. It feels properly luxurious and fits 4 adults quite easily.(though the G37 does that as well, I have to admit). The panoramic sunroof is awesome. And in a first for GM, the NAV system actually works.

    My only gripe with it is that you absolutely need the rear camera option or an aftermarket spoiler because you can't see the rear end while parking.(like the Civic, there are *zero* visual cues). But it's not alone in that, either. The worst offender currently is actually the new Honda Crosstour, which might as well be a utility van when it comes to driver visibility. It also could use something on the hood for the same reason - you kind of expect a Cadillac to have a hood ornament. It's an amazingly easy car to drive fast, but amazingly hard to park.

    Me, I don't parallel park if I can help it, so it's not an issue. Just something to be aware of.

    edit - truecar and cars direct say there are still some 2010 CTS models out there, so you might be able to get one for closer to 30-32K if you don't mind black. (27.5K for a base model(29 with auto), 30K for the Luxury, 32K for the Performance, and 34K for the 3.6) Almost all seem to be black or silver, which is usually what's left over.

    But.. even a base model CTS for ~29K... that makes every other mid-size sedan in the upper 20K range drop off of my radar. Especially the emasculated Regal. Got to love year end fire sales at GM. ;)
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    So, anyone here want to talk about Bimmers again? :blush:
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    I'll talk about any of the older "classic" BMWs all day long ;) Not such a fan of the modern plastic and heavy stuff, though the 1 series is thankfully only a little bit over 3000lbs.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    3373 lbs (135)

    Not sure how much weight is added by the options.

    Not light, but being a fat guy in a room with a bunch of morbidly obese people tends to make you look thin :)
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Well, most folks around here know I'll talk about e30's all day long. Unfortunately, it's not the topic of this thread.

    So, will the 1-series M qualify as the best ELLPS (I know, it's a coupe, but in a 3-box sort of way) on the planet? It's definitely piqued my interest.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    The base model with manual is 3208lbs. A little weight trimming and a few aftermarket mods and you're looking at probably 3100lbs without too much expense.
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,453
    It's definitely piqued my interest.

    I came very close to ordering a a 2011 128i, optioned to my specs(M Sport Pkg, Cold Weather Pkg, Harman-Kardon audio, keyless entry, and xenons). Manual leather seats and no hole in the roof. My dealer was offering $2000 off MSRP. With BMW's $1500 Holiday cash and my $500 CCA rebate I was looking at @$32000+TTL. Good deal, but I kept thinking what I could buy used for similar money, such as a Z4 M Coupe or a Cayman. I'd have the same dilemma with the 1er M Coupe- for $47,000 I can get a CPO E9x M3 or better yet, a pristine 2005 0r 2006 E46 M3 ZCP(and have plenty of cash left over for a Brembo kit, pads, and track tires).

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Or an 06 or 07 CPO Porsche 997...
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,453
    Or an 06 or 07 CPO Porsche 997...

    Yeah, that too... ;)

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,870
    As I mentioned several days ago, conversation about this vehicle belongs in Mainstream Large Sedans. You are welcome to continue talking about it there.

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  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,141
    understood - you missed a bunch of maxima posts from last week..
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,870
    No I didn't - that's what prompted my note earlier this week. You're just a few days behind, that's all. :)

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  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,141
    i'm behind your right- but 823-827 would have been interesting chatter.. love the new edmunds, nice work with the redu
  • I might get bet up about this here but has anyone considered the G25X instead of the 37X?
    The 25x is about 4k cheaper and if you can do without the xtra HP of the 37x it might be a good way to get into the car new, if you can do without some of the 37's options not available on the 25.You also gain about 2 xtra miles per gallon on the 25.
    Just something I was considering and thought others may have also??
    I say the X because I live in the N East and would want it for the winter.
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