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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    I live in the San Diego Southern California region where snow is extinct and rain is rare. I am still running stock 245/40R18 (Pirelli P7's Z-rated speed) Summer tires on my OEM wheels and will soon be trying 255/40R18 Extreme Performance Bridgestone RE-71's on my aftermarket 18" wheels that are a 1/2" wider than stock (and several pounds lighter). Not because it is summer season, but because anytime a track event looms on the future horizon, I can just switch out, but I enjoy the extra performance on roads too, and not having to buy tools or spend time swapping them out myself at the track. I think the stock Pirelli's fall under Max Performance, but they are just OK for the times. They'll be replaced with Michelin Pilot Super Sports when needed.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Tires (mark brought it up not me)

    I was a guy- who has lived up east both Boston and NYC. Thought all season was the way to go- then they came out with All season sport tired I bought them and they were ok most of th time but a little suspect in snow and not great in heat. For 3 years had a guy chirping in my ear about dedicated shoes, now he is a rally car guy. When I bought the s4 I was lucky it had a Spair set of dedicated snows on stock 18's (non factory all seasons) and a set of 19 rims (Hartman which is an Audi copy rim,s5 in my example) with slick summer tires. Well boy have my thoughts about tires, tire pressure, dynamic setting, sports mode, launch control, limited slip, dsg
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    we're waiting for the other shoe to drop......AND.....?
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,288
    Dedicated summer and winter tire/wheel sets are definitely the optimum setup. That's what I run on the Club Sport, 328i, and MS3. The TJ and X3 run all seasons year round, but note that the Jeep's A/S tires also have the Severe Snow(winter) rating.
    Yesterday I had a hearing @70 miles away and I drove the MS3- taking a more scenic and rural route. I can't say enough good things about the Michelin PSS I fitted a while back. Wet or dry, grip level are simply phenomenal.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Roadburner: Perhaps a bit of a word game, on my part, but I would say dedicated summer and winter tires are the MAXIMUM setup not the optimum. UHP A/S are optimal, just not the maximum you can achieve.

    I tried the summer winter set up once and didn't like the "rash" that developed on my expensive wheels. I would think, today, that the maximum set up would be as you suggest summer tires/summer wheels, winter tires/winter wheels. Having just purchased 8 new DWS 06 UHP A/S's plus paid for the mounting, balancing and all wheel alignment, I guess we're going to wait until next time, which will probably be either on the next car or 40K miles from now.

    Were money no object, I would like to compare these DWS 06's to dedicated extreme performance summer only tires -- but, since money is an object, we're going to live with the current top UHP A/S's we could get.

    Thus far, I do think these tires are the ones Audi should choose when the customer checks all-season tires on his/her S4. Probably will fall on deaf ears though. But god, the Grand Touring tires just seem like totally the wrong choice at least for an S car, and I would think for a regular A4 too, frankly.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    @shiftright the shoe drops with dedicated summer and winters for performance cars if you live in drastic weather conditions for the 2 seasons is prob the thing to do. With the winter we had last year prob not a bad idea to get the wifes awd a set of dedicated snows.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm a big fan of dedicated snow tires, too. If you pitted a RWD or FWD car with dedicated snows against an AWD car with all seasons, it'd be pretty close. The AWD would probably be better on gaining traction for acceleration, but in steering, braking and handling I think the 2WD would beat it every time.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    If you live where there is routinely more than moderate snow (SW Ohio is typically low to moderate snow, for example), I would NOT suggest using A/S tires thinking you'd be OK, even with AWD. Much of the US, however, has some cold without much white stuff, that is where I (speaking only for myself) would stick with the year 'round one-tire solution.

    Come to think of it, were I to feel the need for a summer and a winter tire, I would almost certainly use dedicated wheel/tire combinations rather than have the wheels be ever so slightly damaged every time I changed the tires.

  • zandorzandor Member Posts: 67
    I prefer two sets of tires and wheels even on AWD cars. AWD + winter tires = awesome. The other reason I like 2 sets is I like summer tires. If I get summer tires I need something else for winter, so I might as well do it right and get winter tires. Around here (Chicago) the snow isn't usually too bad, so I prefer performance winter tires unless it's a RWD car. They're much better on roads that aren't covered in snow than something like a T-rated snow and ice tire.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,674
    As a life-long New Englander and skier of the beautiful Green and White mountains, beyond choice in drive wheels and/or tires, I find a major factor in handling driving in the snow is the fact that many drivers are just not that bright.

    Until my wonderful '05 TL, I had done quite nicely with FWD/All Seasons, snow-driving experience and a modicum of common sense and luck. The TL was just not as confidence inspiring once the snow got more than a couple of inches deep, so I bought a set of Dunlop snow sneakers on dedicated rims. Night and day.

    My AWD XF with the stock Contis was a champ in this past winter's several Snowmageddons/Snowpocalypses. However, if I lived in the mountains of Maine, NH or Vermont, likely I'd go snow shoes without giving it a second thought.

    My Jag XK with the stock summer Dunlops? 1/8" of snow in my driveway and I was going nowhere!!!

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Love the tire talk and good to hear others are going the 2 set/season route - the cars we drive today have a boatload of safety tech built in but have added weight and power which can cripple you in a tough situation. 
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    This is not directly related to ELLPS, but many people here expressed their admiration, or at least interest in diesel-powered cars. I just read an article that essentially vindicates my diesel position. European Union is changing its stance on diesel emissions. Up to now, they were giving diesels essentially free pass, or forbearance on tested emission levels. Their current testing procedures measure unrealistically low levels emission (it is by setup) and those levels are used in certification process. Moreover, those unrealistic values look better than gasoline engines. This is similar to old EPA highway gas mileage, when those high numbers were obtained by running cars on a sunny day, with no wind, super even speed in an oval track, with a skinny driver behind the wheel, everything taken from the trunk, tire pressure set up at above normal levels, etc. Moreover, the carbon emission fetish (which was huge in Europe way before our administration caught the bug) lead to additional forbearance on nitrogen oxide, which is much more toxic to humans in immediate effect. Carbon is supposedly bad for the planet, so we have to prevent ourselves from being drowned in oceans, or suffering other horrible "Inconvenient Truth" death scenario due to temperatures raising by 2 degrees, but nitrogen oxide killing us before then was apparently OK. This whole setup was to made diesels look much better than they really were, and as such they were taxed at lower levels. All politics.

    The regulators are looking now to made all emission testing realistic and using those values for certification process. The situations is reportedly so bad that, if implemented immediately, multiple models would have to be withdrawn from the market, which tells you how much skewed the setup was. Thankfully, United States government never bought into that diesel BS to the same degree. I also recall the difficulties with "clean diesel" implementation initiative (e.g. Navistar having to pay huge penalties on their engines because they couldn't make them compliant on time), I suspect part of that was that there was no forbearance on the testing.

    I always maintained that Europeans bought diesels not by choice, but because they were made by artificial market setup. Also, American "resistance" to diesel was not as "irrational" as many people would try to make us believe. There is surely place for those engines - in agriculture, construction, heavy and midsize transportation, buses, perhaps on SUV-level. I think diesel Suburban, F-150, or even BMW X5 (or Honda Odyssey, if they made it) make perfect sense. If you have three kids and like taking long road trips, diesel would should advantages, My problem was with worshiping TDI Jettas and Passats. They may be fine, but I would still take a gasoline engine every day and twice on Sunday.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    dino001 said:

    I think diesel Suburban, F-150, or even BMW X5 (or Honda Odyssey, if they made it) make perfect sense. If you have three kids and like taking long road trips, diesel would should advantages, My problem was with worshiping TDI Jettas and Passats. They may be fine, but I would still take a gasoline engine every day and twice on Sunday.

    Dino, you can take your stand and use it any car. Do we really need a 120K MB S600? Doesn't a 60K Lexus LS460 give the same ride and comfort? Just because you don't see a need for a diesel power Jetta doesn't mean others do not. Currently here in phoenix diesel fuel is roughly .30 cents less then regular unleaded
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    edited July 2015
    That's true, to each their own. My point is that many that say they want to see more diesels, because Europeans have them, so it must be so great, but it turns out those Europeans were convinced and coerced by their governments using tax incentives, penalties, and other means as diesels were supposed to be so great for the environment. Turns out, it was a giant con, based on phoney metrics, made to fit a story. The tide turned, it will take some years to change, but it seems diesels ain't so great when things are made equal. Once the goverments remove those preferences and even the field, you'll see European market move back toward having much more gasoline-leaning market, where diesels will have their place, but the siliness of pusing them into every model will likely stop. It will never be as barren as here, but it likely resemble what was there twenty years ago or so, when those new diesel everywhere hoopla started.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    @flightnurse - they sell a $60k LS460 in Arizona ?
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,288
    I found a couple of CPO E92 335i manuals while car hunting- both had xDrive, unfortunately.
    Meh.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's just weight + complexity. What's not to like? B)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    edited July 2015
    Regarding Diesels:

    dino001, are there issues/circumstances that argue against diesels? I thought, here in the US, that once the fuel was cleaner and with the advent of "ad-blue" that the only factor arguing against diesel being widely adopted was inertia.

    The message that I have bought into is that diesels -- and this means the hardware and the fuel -- produce more torque and can often achieve some 1/3 better mileage than gasoline (around here premium and diesel are often close to each other in price.) In short, I have bought into the notion that diesels can actually be fuel sipping "hot rods." The SQ5 which is a terrific performer, is actually offered as a diesel in Germany, for instance.

    When my S4's tank is full the "miles to empty" reading is 400. I assumed this would mean it would be at least 520 to empty if I had the diesel set up that is in the German market SQ5 in my S4. Based on the AudiUSA website (which, for example offers up a 3.0T A6 and a diesel A6) I assumed it would be a pretty simple calculation to estimate the asking price for an S4d (if one were to be made for the US market) and to then determine how many tankfuls until break even, etc.

    That "perception" which I somehow seem to be reading in your post, may be part true, part myth. Please elaborate -- here's why: I have been against using "food" to make "gas" since some politician, I assume, started pressing for e85 fuel; conversely, it has always seemed that diesel engines in our cars could be a good bridge to a future where we actually can use less and less fossil fuel.

    I read your post, however, and I wonder if I just drank some diesel flavored kool-aid some years ago.

    Again, please elaborate on your point about Europeans being coerced and apparently tricked into adopting diesels whilst we 'mericans adopted, almost universally, gasoline.

    Thanks.

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,288

    It's just weight + complexity. What's not to like? B)

    Plus, you don't even get a sport suspension. Most FXX cars at least offer the option of an adaptive suspension with xDrive. Without it the cars have a floaty ride and even more understeer.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    It's just weight + complexity. What's not to like? B)

    For some reason BMW will not offer the sport suspension on X drive cars, so the sport package and M Package are just appearance packages, however, if you do get a X drive car you get the DHP (Dynamic Handeling Package) which the Adaptive suspension is part of and will take care of the suspension problem. Ricks GT will have the DHP, since all GT's are xDrive here in the states.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    edited July 2015
    The trick was in the tax structure, favoring diesels. That tax structure was justified by a doctored science, making the diesel engine look like a savior of the environment (vs. evil gasoline engine) due to lower carbon emissions, with nitrogen and particulate data using emission tests that were set up to produce appearance of much lower emissions than real life. As a result, the measured nitrogen oxide and particulate levels in cities did not go down and they tracked it to the emission test overstating the reduction of those emissions. In essence, if new diesel emission standards were followed using real life tests (similar to those in the US), there would be materially fewer engines certified in the marketplace (just like in the US), and those approved would be much more expensive. Hence the "con". There are some other interesting particulars in diesel market in Europe - like particulate filters that are often cut out by rogue drivers, because their replacement is horribly expensive, which defeats the purpose of the filter (this is more Eastern Europe phenomenon than Western). Also, it has been well documented that durability of those new breeds of diesel engines is well below what it was before and the maintenance is horribly expensive. Premature failures of double mass wheels, emission systems (especially in situations of frequent short trips, when particulate filters don't have a chance to burn out), increased sensitivity to fuel quality, make those engines equally or even more fragile than gas engines. The old stinker could go for million miles on vegetable or heating oil, the new quiet, "clean" diesel, has a lifespan similar or sometimes shorter than the gas engine with higher costs of overhauls. The prices of diesel repairs of those new TDI engines at authorized garages are legendary over there (it's not unique to VAG, same happens to MB, BMW, Peugeot, or Renault).

    European Commission is trying to rectify the emission situation by tightening the standards to resemble American, but the issue is of course transition time. I believe once new enforcement is in place and costs of engines go up, the proportions of diesel engines in small cars will revert to values similar to those prior the whole craze, which is more than in the US, but much less than today. The move is already happening, primarily due to equalized diesel fuel prices (that used to be much cheaper), observed increased maintenance cost and lower durability (majority of Europeans, even in the West buy cars for eight-ten years, not three or five), but tightening the standard will likely accelerate it.

    Americans never caught that bug, partially due to unrelenting of the US government on nitrogen oxide emission requirements. From what I understand it was also California that was even more "anti-diesel" than the feds. When you had fifth of the market excluded, there was little incentive for the manufacturers to even pursue the technology. After 20 years of apparently failed European experiment, it appears this was one of the few times, US/California governments did something right, even if not knowing why. ;)

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited July 2015
    Let's start with...I've never seen the BMW 3 gt - the 5 gTs that I've seen all look dumpy and for some reason the ones I've seen have smaller 18 inches where 19/20s should be in place. It's a cool concept which seem more at place in the 3- but let's be honest given the choice...
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 239,555
    sweendogy said:
    Let's start with...I've never seen the BMW 3 gt - the 5 gTs that I've seen all look dumpy and for some reason the ones I've seen have smaller 18 inches where 19/20s should be in place. It's a cool concept which seem more at place in the 3- but let's be honest given the choice...
    The 3-GT is on a longer wheelbase than the 3-series sedan, supposedly to accommodate the Chinese market. Many owners are driven. 

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  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Michaell said:


    The 3-GT is on a longer wheelbase than the 3-series sedan, supposedly to accommodate the Chinese market. Many owners are driven. 

    There is 3 inch more leg room in the back and the car is 1 inch wider then a 3 series sedan. The amount of leg room in the back is more then a 5 series sedan. The 5 GT has more leg room in the back then a standard WB 7 series.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    of the cars with 4/5 doors - if you had to vote one off the island, legroom aside it would be the GT every time. If I had to drive my 7 foot grandmother around it would be in the GT.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    edited July 2015
    I agree, GT is not really a BMW in the same way other cars. I liked the general idea, but the execution was in a wrong direction. Now, 4-series Grand Coupe looks fantastic and hits all the right tones - 440i GC (when it comes in 2017) is most likely going to be my next car - unless I decide I can't wait and get 435i GC.


    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,382
    I have given up trying to keep the BMW models straight. Confusing nomenclature, and seemingly ton of overlap between them.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    Grand Coupe is a 4-series because it uses 4-series wheelbase and wheeltrack. It also has a rear hatch, which is a hoot to me. I won't buy a car without a rear hatch. The sloped rear is a downer for 6-ft tall individuals in the back seat, but I don't care - I sit in the front and don't chauffeur anybody around.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 239,555
    dino001 said:

    Grand Coupe is a 4-series because it uses 4-series wheelbase and wheeltrack. It also has a rear hatch, which is a hoot to me. I won't buy a car without a rear hatch. The sloped rear is a downer for 6-ft tall individuals in the back seat, but I don't care - I sit in the front and don't chauffeur anybody around.

    Yeah, if only it were so easy to remember ....

    2, 4, 6 - coupes
    3, 5, 7 - sedans
    X1, X3, X4, X5, X6 - SUV/CUV/SAV (whatever)

    (except for the 4 GC and the 6 GC - the former is the hatch, the latter is a sedan. Oh, and the 3GT and the 5GT - those are hatches, too)

    Yeah, I think BMW may have lost the plot.

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  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,288
    For anyone interested, I posted my driving impression of the 2016 STI in the Buying and Selling Cars topic.
    Condensed Version: I liked it. A lot.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724

    For anyone interested, I posted my driving impression of the 2016 STI in the Buying and Selling Cars topic.
    Condensed Version: I liked it. A lot.

    What's not to like about the STI. You should like it. I guess there is one thing, you are forced to get a sedan rather than have the option to get the hatch version like the good ol' days.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,288
    Yes, I would prefer a hatch.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724

    Yes, I would prefer a hatch.

    Have you test driven the Golf R? I've heard reports that in real world driving it is faster than the STI.

    Of course, I know you favor the manual over DSG even if it means sacrificing two tenths to 60 MPH.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,288
    edited July 2015
    I'd like to try a Golf R, but they are extremely thin on the ground. The local VW dealers can also be jerks- that quells my enthusiasm a bit.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724

    I'd like to try a Golf R, but they are extremely thin on the ground. The local VW dealers acn also be jerks- that quells my enthusiasm a bit.

    That is very true about them being thin on the ground. And VW dealers seem content to markup sticker if they can get away with it, yet they sell anyway. As to VW dealers being jerks, that's the rumour and the reputation. The dealers I went to in So Cal (3 different dealers) were all reasonably accommodating and didn't seem abnormal. Of course, 2 of the dealerships were owned by the same company.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    An interesting bit on the Q is the tire pressure monitor. It shows the air pressure in each tire. You can see the pressure rise as the tires warm. Cool to start, typically rises from 35 - ~ 40 psi.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Many cars have this.  I do the same on my Acura.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,288
    I'm now on an Ohio BMW dealer's email list because they had a 135is I was interested in(before I came to my senses, but I digress). Anyway, today they sent me an email announcing that they were leasing 2015 320i xDrive sedans for $299-$399 per month- for 36 months with $0 down(10k mile/year). Not a car I'd ever consider, but it does sound like a decent deal for someone who'd want something like that.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 239,555

    I'm now on an Ohio BMW dealer's email list because they had a 135is I was interested in(before I came to my senses, but I digress). Anyway, today they sent me an email announcing that they were leasing 2015 320i xDrive sedans for $299-$399 per month- for 36 months with $0 down(10k mile/year). Not a car I'd ever consider, but it does sound like a decent deal for someone who'd want something like that.

    Local dealer here in Denver has them for $299 with $1799 down. Not enough miles for me and just a bit beyond my budget.

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  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    On the comment above - I'm amazed dealers would markup "hot" cars and not just go with msrp. Seems like a dangerous game to play as they can piss off customers. If dealers Are really into satisfying customers for more then one car sale- if I went into a dealership and wanted a certain car (like I did years ago looking for an accord v6 couple, manual) and they up priced said car - I would never go back (which I didn't a few years later to get my wife's crv, but I did use there discounted price to get a better deal elsewhere) 
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 239,555
    sweendogy said:

    On the comment above - I'm amazed dealers would markup "hot" cars and not just go with msrp. Seems like a dangerous game to play as they can piss off customers. If dealers Are really into satisfying customers for more then one car sale- if I went into a dealership and wanted a certain car (like I did years ago looking for an accord v6 couple, manual) and they up priced said car - I would never go back (which I didn't a few years later to get my wife's crv, but I did use there discounted price to get a better deal elsewhere) 

    Dealers are simply striking while the iron is hot .. folks are willing to pay above sticker for the new hot thing. First generation Miata, PT Cruiser, GT-R are examples that come to mind.

    Lot of folks with more money than sense, it seems.

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  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    I colleague of mine had pre-ordered a BMW i8 to the tune of about $200k. Much later when the car came in they demanded an additional $50k over the MSRP. He was incensed because this was non-negotiable, and they would not even compromise, plus he had to exert considerable pressure on them to get his deposit back. They definitely lost him as a repeat customer. He had been a repeat customer up till then.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,288
    A few dealers pulled the same stunt with the Z8 and 1 Series M Coupe.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited July 2015
    I get they are "striking, while hot" but the next car a guy Who is now looking golf gti might be looking in 3/4 years time for a Passat or some suv - mainstream dealers are about volume- seems short sided to me. 
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited July 2015
    Interesting data as of 2014:
    Light Vehicles
    • The top nine manufacturers selling vehicles in the U.S. produce 52% of the world’s vehicles.

    • U.S. sales volumes increased by nearly 50% from 2009 to 2013.

    • Sales-weighted data on new light vehicles sold show a 124% increase in horsepower
    and a 47% decrease in 0 - 60 time from 1980 to 2014,
    with the fuel economy of vehicles improving 27%.

    • More than 18% of cars sold in 2013 have continuously variable transmissions.

    • More than 90% of new light vehicles sold in 2014 have transmissions with more than 5 speeds.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Wonder what the % of manual transmissions delivered to customers is (and if there is any historical comparison available, what that might be)?

    My wife and I purchased cars with manual transmissions up until 2005 when -- the cars that we wanted -- basically stopped being offered with manuals.

    I did, mostly, enjoy my first 6-speed auto (a Tiptronic), but always wondered what the same car would be like with a manual. No way to tell, as a practical matter, anymore.

    Then, I test drove the 2014 S4 with a manual and the 7-speed DSG (dual clutch "automatic manual") -- I found the DSG to provide all of the good things (except the actual depressing of the pedal) of a manual, but after a back to back demo drive (of both transmissions in otherwise identical S4's) I decided the DSG actually felt quicker, and it certainly could be a hell of a lot smoother. Moreover, I use the type of car washes where you give your car to "the guy" to drive through the tunnel, etc -- and I smelled a burning clutch and heard grinding gears one time too many, so I talked myself into the DSG.

    Now at some 30,000+ miles later, I find the DSG to be the best transmission experience I have ever had, relegating my love of manuals to be my sentimental favorite, but not for the performance, I used to believe could only be achieved by rowing your own.

    I am fortunate to also have another Audi an SQ5 with an 8-speed Tiptronic. Oddly, despite the torque converter, this iteration of the 8-speed is also better even than an S4's manual (there is no way to back to back test the SQ5 manual vs Tip since Audi only offers the SQ5 with the 8-speed.) But the 8-speed still has a hint, a vague suggestion really of being "almost instantaneous" making it sort of like the Coke Zero of Cola -- it's not Diet Coke, but it's not quite the real thing either.

    The march forward of auto trans technology is, I would assume, largely responsible for the death and dearth of manual offerings. And, even though the DSG easily justifies its existence, I wonder if all 8-speeds are as good as the tuned version in the SQ5. I would, therefore, imagine there are other reasons for the paucity of stick shifts -- the only one I can think of is convenience, unless the real reason is "we've" been marketed to, so convincingly, and been convinced that we've lost the manual dexterity to undertake shifting, and that we don't really need it.

    I'm going to stick with convenience as the killer of the manual.

    But, I would be keenly interested in knowing the percentages if such source for that data is available.

    Thanks.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited July 2015
    Jon Ikeda promoted to General Manger of Acura:

    http://www.autonews.com/article/20150727/OEM02/150729892/hondas-accavitti-leaves-top-post-at-acura

    Ikeda, among other things, led the styling team for the successful 2004 Acura TL. He has been with Honda since 1989.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,495
    edited July 2015
    The alphabet-soup transmissions are probably wonderful, so long as they work and/or are under warranty.

    When they break (and they do), then it's time to find out if the technicians at the dealership even know how to spell transmission. Most of them are told to remove and replace the whole assembly. If it's under warranty, then it's "only" a couple of visits to the d'ship and some amount of time in a loaner. If it's not. . .

    Mark is a well-known proponent of never driving anything out of warranty. I've driven most of my vehicles way, way beyond the warranty coverage. We differ.

    I like manuals. For simplicity and maintainability reasons, I seek out vehicles with them. My drive to and from work every day, and the trip up to the cabin and back, make use of (at most) 20% of the capability of the vehicle I drive. I just need the vehicle to need minimal attention. Back when I drove among Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary & Regina through the Canadian Rockies in the middle of the night, having a vehicle that demonstrated excellent handling was important. Now it is not; the latest and greatest technology is for those who love bells and whistles. Actual driving rarely enters the discussion The Fraser Canyon at 2 am was a wonderful thing.

    Many pretend, as they go around on-ramps. I'm not interested, but recognize that many are. YMMV .
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited July 2015
    Here's some detail regarding transmissions as of end of 2014:
    The number of transmission speeds in new light vehicles has been growing.
    A greater number of gears improve fuel economy and performance by more closely matching the wheel speed to the optimum engine speed. Four - speed transmissions were the norm for cars and light trucks until the mid - 2000’s when transmissions of five speeds or more began dominating the market. The market share grew for 6 - , 7 -, 8 - and 9 - speed cars and light trucks in 2014. Continuously variable transmissions (CVT) are also making their way into the market.

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