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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • I am at 5,000 miles on my 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD Advance. Mileage ranges from 20.+ around town to 25.6+ on trips between Cincinnati and Columbus (about 100 miles each way.) Car requires premium, but I haven't had a car in years that didn't, so that is no biggie.

    I am at 30% of oil life left and am going to switch to Mobil1 5W-20 at the first oil change; I would expect a very slight bump in mileage due to that and due to the car reaching approximately 7,500-8,000 miles at the first change.

    Coming from a 2009 Audi A4 2.0T quattro (6 speed tiptronic) -- I am impressed as my mileage is slightly better on the Acura and the Acura has 305 HP compared to the Audi's 211 -- the torque (max) is better on the Acura too, but, in fairness to the Audi, since it was a turbo, the torque was available at sub 2000 rpms -- the Acura has to spin a lot faster to reach its full torque.

    So, net net: the Acura, IMHO, is not exactly a sipper of fuel, but it is damn close considering the power and the AWD system.

    No complaints from me!

    Drive it like you live. :shades:
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,194
    Seems like your getting Mpgs that match the govt and seem pretty good o me given the size of the car. Here's edmunds take -

    http://www.edmunds.com/acura/tl/2012/road-test.html
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,582
    I just had an opportunity to drive my BMW 335iS on an extended road trip. Approx. 700 miles over 2 driving days. Since I was curious, I filled the tank twice during the trip, both times at approx. half tank remaining. At the 2 fills, the car displayed 28.3 and 28.0. Excel calculates 26.9 and 27.2.

    Much of the driving was Interstates [ typically posted 70 MPH and maintaining 75-ish ] or divided rural routes [ typically posted 55 and running 65-ish ] – with some ‘in town’ driving as well.

    Currently at just over 2,000 miles.

    Car: 335iS – trans. = seven speed DCT.
    EPA rating is 17 \ 24.
    Not bad, methinks, not bad at all.
    - Ray
    Unable to calculate the MPG for the 1,000+ miles in Europe, because I did not realize until I returned that 2 receipts did not include the number of liters purchased . . .
  • Markcincinnati
    thanks for the info. i appreciate it. i agree that the MPG is good for a car with that amount of power in an AWD version. I imagine the car's FWD bias is partly responsible for that, as is the V-Tec technology. I don't mind the FWD bias as long as the car moves power toward the rear in more spirited driving. The test drive I took proved it does just that.

    The sales rep knew that I didn't like the amount of torque steer in the FWD model I had previously driven, so he suggested an open route with a lot of curves and he had me push the car to limits beyond what I would normally do with a stranger in the passenger seat. The car was rock solid throughout. i was really sold on the handling.

    I have not had a BMW or an Audi, so I don't have a true benchmark comparison, but I can safely say the car handles much better than any of the cars I have owned in the past.
  • I have (correction, my wife and I have had) twenty-nine Audi's, three BMW's and two VW's since the mid 1970's. We currently have a 2011 Infiniti FX35 AWD Premium and a 2012 Acura SH-AWD Advance.

    The Acura, upon first test drive (in a day with several test drives over identical routes and speeds, etc) was "close to" a 2011 Audi S4 Premium+ without any additional options (that is, it did not have the torque vectoring option called Sport Differential.)

    Many -- myself included -- scoff or repress a scoff (that's me) -- whenever I utter or type those words. But damnit Jim, I'm a doctor, not a plumber, no wait, I'm a software guy not a professional car reviewer.

    But there it is -- a $47,000+ Acura TL drives and feels pretty much like a potentially $59,000 Audi S4 (if they are equipped similarly the Audi's price shoots up, big time.) A serious Automobile magazine comparison of the two cars may not convice you that the Acura should be shopped against the Audi, but the numbers (produced and recorded for both cars) are not that far apart -- and it feels as if the Acura and the Audi are twin-sons of different mothers or something akin to that.

    look here:

    http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1008_2010_acura_tl_sh_awd_vs_2010_au- di_s4/viewall.html

    In any case, I was driving a 2009 Audi A4 2.0T Prestige w/sport package and 19" wheels and tires with Audi Drive Select for Pete's sake -- and I wanted a new 2012 Audi. A reasonably well equipped A4 (not S4) could be had for about $47,000, so the Acura, at the price, seemed a good place to compare.

    Problem was, the Audi came back at a 42 month lease point that was much higher than the Acura's lease point for 36 months.

    Bzzz. A 4-cyc Audi w/211 HP (and it seemed smaller than the Acura) vs an Acura w/305 HP with every possible do dad that Acura throws on these cars?

    Even the loyalty and "pull" of 29 previous Audis could not make me cough up the extra money (which would have been about $200 per month).

    In any case, given an identical deal, I probably would have re-upped for the Audi (at the time, in fact, I am certain I would have); but the dollar done me in. Hell, at the time, for the exact same money, I probably would have gone for a Volvo S60 T6 AWD with a few option boxes ticked off.

    Now, 5,000 miles later -- I am, I admit it -- very pleased with my decision and love to press down on the accelerator and be rewarded with great power and power delivered as if it were coming from an ultra smooooooth turbine.

    The Acura TL SH-AWD Advance may not quite know what it wants to be, but for the time being it is the bargain of the bunch for performance and content methinks.

    Still loving the Germans, but temporarily on vacation with the Japanese.

    -- Mark

    Oh yea, drive it like you live.

    :shades:
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,194
    edited November 2011
    Glad you like the TL - seems like a nice rig and for the dollar is abetter buy then a loaded a4 but here is another review that's not as glowing.

    http://m.automobilemag.com/reviews/editors_notebook/1106_2012_acura_tl_sh_awd_ad- - - vance/index.html

    Here is an interesting blurb:

    "I appreciate Acura's offering a manual transmission in the TL, but I was not nearly as enamored of it as my colleagues seem to be. Perhaps it felt a little out of place to me because I don't really see Acura as a brand for enthusiasts. Keep making your cars heavier, cancel the development of your V-8 engine, unleash the ZDX on the world, and it's no wonder enthusiasts are more interested in BMW, Audi, and Cadillac these days"

    This is similar to what I wrote 3 years ago before I got kicked out of a tl chat
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,776
    "I appreciate Acura's offering a manual transmission in the TL, but I was not nearly as enamored of it as my colleagues seem to be. Perhaps it felt a little out of place to me because I don't really see Acura as a brand for enthusiasts. Keep making your cars heavier, cancel the development of your V-8 engine, unleash the ZDX on the world, and it's no wonder enthusiasts are more interested in BMW, Audi, and Cadillac these days"

    That's nice, but you should separate the CAR from the BRAND. One poster says the CAR is 90% of the Audi. No arguments about the BRAND, but development of a V8, the existence of the ZDX have nothing to do with whether the TL is a good car or not.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,194
    The article never mentioned the TL as not being good. Infact they said "When looked at side-by-side with the BMW 3-series, the Volvo S60, or the Cadillac CTS, the TL strikes me as mid-pack at best in terms of performance, refinement, and status and brings up the rear in the looks and sex appeal departments. Although this is a very good car, it lacks emotion and that intangible something that makes it more desirable that its competitors."
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,111
    edited November 2011
    I have no disagreement with anything either you or the professional reviewer said -- I have found, after some 5,000 miles however, that the Acura is more, er, enthusiastic than I would have, could have, imagined.

    The overall brand, Acura, faces its detractors and challenges. By the time Acrua had a V8 in the market, "everyone" would be writing "why bother" as even BMW and Audi are moving to fewer cylinders and blown engines instead of naturally aspirated ones.

    I give nor take any points away from Acura due to its lack of a V8.

    It remains true, today, however, that Acura is typically not considered an enthusiast's brand. Some of this perception could change however now that Tony Stark is getting an Acura in the new Avenger's movie (who'da thunk he'd turn in his R8?)

    :surprise:
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,697
    You are getting right on target for your car. How long did you have to wait for your car to return from Germany? This spring we are doing the European Del on our 535i, the last time I did the Euro Del it took 7 weeks.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,582
    7 weeks + 2 days.
    Spent a bit longer before boarding in Germany and
    longer at port \ dist. center here than I
    had expected. [ hoped ]
    OTOH, they replaced a front wheel I scraped up in Italy!
    BMW estimates 6-8 weeks for East Coast.
    So....
    - Ray
    Really enjoying the drive!
  • Sweeny- you must have something against the brand, you are always digging up negative articles. There are buyers who are more realist- we actually go out and test the cars ourselves to detrmine if its to our desires. Why dont you try that the next time you are in the market, maybe some of the cars you are malicing will blow your mind.
    I used to subscribe to Car and Driver several years back, but I realized that if the car does not have a BMW emblem on the hood the reviews went south- hence, I cancelled my subscription.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,194
    Billy - I would again read all posts it was in responce to the article , that was in the same mag as Mark posted about the s4- it was the other side of the agrument -

    How's the search for the E65 going? Us 99% ers could only dream.

    Mark- I agree the V8 is no longer needed for the brand.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,697
    Granted that BMW and MB and Audi are downsizing their engines, however you will notice that in their flagship cars, all have a V8 and will stay that way. Acrua needs a V8 to stay competitive in that market or drop the RL all together
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,111
    edited November 2011
    I would assume Audi and BMW (and Merc, Infiniti and Lexus, too) will continue to offer V8's -- why not, they already have them and they are good, often great engines.

    My point is more to the practical notion that "what was once a V8 is now a 6" (either I6 or V6) with a turbo, twin-turbo or super-charger. Likewise, we are increasingly seeing these companies moving from a 6 to a 4, also with forced induction.

    These changes are being done for a variety of reasons, but the one that seems to get press, is they are using smaller CI engines (with forced induction) to improve the car's efficiency (without sacrificing performance.)

    Acura may well skirt the "marketing need" for more than 6 cylinders by taking the approach of further refining the current 3.7L and then breathing on it, one way or another, to get the HP and torque needed for a flagship vehicle.

    When I was in Germany I noted the D class cars all over the place, but mostly with smaller engines (an A8 with a V6? yep.)

    Maybe Acura will pull the covers off of a new "Honda" V8 and put it in their flagship car (assuming they can muster, or, better said, WANT to invest in a complete re-do of the RL.)

    At this point, I care not -- and I have no idea if I will get another Acura.

    I really like the TL in SH-AWD Advance trim -- but a lesser TL didn't do it for me; so who knows, maybe the next gen Audi (B or C class) will draw me back. In other words, I was passionate about Audi's, but I am much less inclined to be thus insofar as the TL is concerned.

    The hell of it is, the Acura TL SH-AWD advance is "more car" a better performing car (gulp, please forgive me oh Ingolstadt gods) and a more efficient car. Add to that "everybody" says Acura's are both reliable AND durable (especially when compared with Audi's, eh?)

    "Everybody" says so, anyway.

    But this claim, at least, is left to be seen. At 5,000 miles the Acura feels "new" (actually better than new now that the engine is a bit looser); but, so did my last 10 Audi's and my wife's last BMW (a 2008 X3 with all the toys on it.)

    I would tell you my Audi's were reliable (for 50,000 miles), but damn, out of warranty they were breathtakingly expensive to maintain and repair. I have only an opinion as to their durability, and, well, I assume Audi's are simply not as durable as some other cars, once the miles climb well above 50K.

    So, will Acura survive and THRIVE as an LPS or ELLPS without a V8? Beats the heck outta me -- customer's memories are short and most shoppers will probably be unaware of the lack of a V8 offering (if that is what happens) if there is a buttery smooth, powerful and quiet engine that responds to the touch of the accelerator. Any of these companies is now capable of doing that with 4, 6, 8 or more cylinder engines.

    Acura needs, more than anything, to figure out what it wants to be when it grows up -- the current "Advance" campaign is pretty good, but the entire product line needs a refresh and to keep and build a marketing campaign that imbues the brand with a positive image. Currently, the image, if you asked me, is "We're the Bucky Beaver Brand" -- with the exception, perhaps, of the ZDX and who knows what the hell that thing is and who it is supposed to "speak to."

    The current TL is a band-aid -- the upcoming generation of all of their vehicles needs to refine the styling cues across the board and update the technology offered.

    Hopefully the budget and the will to do this becomes evident.

    In any case, I'm sticking with the "who cares about offering a V8?" theme for them.

    Drive it like you live.

    :shades:
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Posts: 198
    edited November 2011
    Sween- its actually E63 AMG or the E550. I only have 13K miles on the TL with 3yrs of payment to go. The Mercedes is not on the radar as yet but you never know when the new car itch sets in- maybe next week.:)
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,697
    No doubt that in Germany (Europe) you will find D class cars with 6 cyl's that to me is a given. First time I was in Germany (1981) I had a 520i. However we all now that a 520i wouldn't sell here in the US. If I could afford it, our next BMW would be the 740i (will settle for a 535i for now) with the ( twin turbo I6) to me that is the uber car to have. For less then 3K, that engine can make 400hp with no problem (with the factory turbo) and be stone reliable, no need for a V8.

    The RL has been the problem child for Acrua, and why? For me, no flagship car should have a V6 as its only engine, and second, the styling doesn't say Flagship. Yes, we all now the factory;s can make lots of HP from a good 6 cyl but many people want a V8.

    If I'm off base, I would love to hear why..

    Tony
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,111
    edited November 2011
    I think you are on-base for some (perhaps many); but, the number of folks who want a V8 is on the decline. I don't know how long it will take for this decline to be big enough to really make a V8 irrelevant, but I do believe it will, eventually, happen.

    I believe most folks care more about the way the car feels when the accelerator is pressed down (a little or a lot.) If the car feels as if it has weapons grade torque, is smooooooth and quiet (except at full cry), and does not require frequent fill-ups or fill ups that rival a car payment, well what the heck. If the car has a 6 and an electric motor and it is able to meet the requirements noted above -- to hell with what is under the hood.

    In my observation, which is just that, mine, folks that buy the big buck luxury cars (like the A8 or 7 series, or Lexus barges) are often not enthusiasts.

    I'd take a 5 series for the most fun over a 7, any day -- especially if I were footing the bill to care and feed it.

    So, no, to repeat, you are not TODAY off base -- but your statement strikes me as being dangerously close to becoming an historical observation, not a current event for too much longer -- now cut a buck off the price of gas, well, maybe.

    I remain: Often wrong, but never uncertain.

    Drive it like you live.

    :shades:
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,697
    Thanks for the info, when I took delivery of my 330i in Germany I had a blast. Do you have Nav in your 335?
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,194
    edited November 2011
    Must want out bad huh? A pre 2012 tl automatic with the 5 speed auto and no advance package-Let's not forget the beak and rear end. I
    would of had a couple of test drives or maybe read a mag or 2 before purchase - I guess live and learn- bonus coming soon and soon will be the e550
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,582
    I did not order that option - too much $$s for too little use here.
    Had a portable w/maps for the trip.
    - Ray
    Managed to find where we needed to go.....
  • No way Jose.
    I am quiet satisfied with the beak, 5 speed and rear.
    Secondly, why would I trade up for Blind Spot, Ventilated Seats and an extra gear?
    I know the value of money, the dealer would win, I would be left with a higher payoff balance and just for what-keeping up with the Jones?
    You need to get in contact with me and I will give you a few pointers on the value of money-remember Economics 101?
    Be content with what you have, your day will come for a upgrade. :)
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 8,018
    How right you are. So many people "upgrade" their vehicle for the wrong reasons & cannot afford to do so. They'll dump their gas guzzling SUV for a fuel efficient Hybrid to "save money on gas," but don't take into account the cost of depreciation. Or they'll trade in their current ride for one that has a lower payment, not counting the fact that they now have an additional 5 years of payments to make.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,194
    Never said you should upgrade to the new TL just pointing out your current state, Acura sold the 2011 Tl for only a few months before launching the 12 because it wanted to move on and advance the brand. But did you say bonus season is coming and you wanted a e63 or e550?
    Being such a hitter I thought you'd be able I withstand the lease break hit, with the bonus coming soon. I do agree breaking a lease or flipping a car ever year is prob not a smart idea. In my economics 101 class they did not go over this as it's more common knowledge but happy to hear your Eco 101 recap at anytime.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,697
    I had a co-worker do this in the last gas crunch, she traded in a big SUV, payments of $499/m for a toyota Prius, new payments $599/m her commute is all freeway, so she get better gas mileage, however she isn't saving that $100 difference because of her driving habit, she doesn't drive 65, more like 80... So she isn't getting the mileage she should. After 2 years she finally realized she made a big mistake.... BTW, insurance cost on hybrids are higher then that of non-hybrids.
  • How much advance is the 2012 from the 2011?
    Secondly, let me reiterate for the 100th time- my car is on finance, do you want me to scan the contract on Edmunds?
    I have never heard of anyone leasing for five years, either that person is financially incapable or just bluntly speaking, an imbecile.
    When I mentioned in my post (many moons ago) about my next purchase, I meant the distant future, not immediately.
    Lastly, please stop talking about my bonus, just let it go or if you need one, spend less time on Edmunds and try to improve your financial modelling skills- that way you can properly cover your sector/companies and make your company some money.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,697
    Mark you posting is right on, shoppers have short memory and most people shop for price and that is it. I would have to say, that the people who post on these forum make up less then 10% of buyers who really understand the brand and the cars. But you have ignore the fact that the Acrua RL has been a disaster for Acrua from day one. For $56K there are better cars out there people to chose from.

    For me the TSX is a great car, however it needs a new engine, take the engine from the RDX and detune it to about 220hp and have it run on regular gas, this would transform the TSX in the car Arcua needs.

    If Acrua is going to follow other companies, then the TL needs a turbo I4, if BMW can do it, so can Arcua, at the current RDX turbo and add some HP to it.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,776
    For me the TSX is a great car, however it needs a new engine, take the engine from the RDX and detune it to about 220hp and have it run on regular gas, this would transform the TSX in the car Arcua needs.

    IMHO the previous TSX was the car Acura needs - not the bloated up, numb newer TSX.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,697
    Bill, its not worth the trouble trying to get sweeny to understand what you are posting, he makes it a habit of trying to make the other person look like a fool.

    In Sweeny's world it is OK to place 4K down on a lease to get that uber low lease payment.... So maybe you should teach him car econ 101... Leases are not for everybody they work well if you can AFFORD the car, and I don't mean the payments, however sweeny doesn't think so...

    Wow talk about two different cars the E65 and E550, either one is a nice ride.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,918
    (Just replying to the most recent message... this post is for ALL):

    Let's tone down the personal comments and the hostility. Really, the best course of action for posts or members that you don't care for is to just SKIP them and/or avoid responding.

    MODERATOR
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