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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • danny1878danny1878 Posts: 339
    IMO I dont care who or which country that make the car, as long as it meets my requirement then its fine.

    Why people keep comparing a 5.7 litre engine with ~3.0 litre engine? $50k VS $30-40k? What about the 3.6 CTS-V which is more makes sense.

    There is always something that we dont like either its about the look, reliability, performance, luxury etc. For 50k I would go with Lexus/BMW and maybe the future model of RL (need to see it first thou). Its a blunt attempt to make a car with performance only without considering other aspects.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    However when you say I want an American Car company(Ford or whomever ?) to go out of business, the line between car discusion passion and financial political discussion gets crossed.

    As a passionate car lover I'm speaking from a purely emotional level. I feel the same way about Steven Spielberg, Microsoft, McDonald's and a host of other franchises/companies that represent qualities I dislike.

    Of course on a business school, bottom-line side I totaly understand the economic ramifications created by voiding any of these moneymakers. The ardent capitalist side screams, "Make money any way you can. Sell them a box of rocks fro $1000 and call it Mars' Diamonds."

    The cold, business school trained analytical side tends to scare more people than the emotional side. If I could stamp out substandard products at half the cost of my competitors and lure more people into buying my products for multi billion dollar profits I would.

    Back to our regularly scheduled program: Squabbling about the performance of a 50k "entry level" luxury sedan.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    What's your problem with Spielberg?
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Posts: 252
    The Spielberg movie always use Ford Vans for talent transportation to shoots ;D
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Let's stick to the cars and leave the political views out of this -- whether you define some subjects as "political" or not, we are not here to talk about the American economy, anti-american sentiment, hostility towards American makes, etc.

    Please get back to the cars, and again, let's keep our conversation relevant to our subject.

    I would really appreciate that.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    ...regarding "Near Luxury Performance Sedans".

    As a point of reference, I drive a 2002 530i 5-Speed with enough extra goodies to have brought the MSRP up to nearly $49,000. That said, I got a good deal and did the European Delivery thing which resulted in a final price of just south of $43,000. That of course does not count the cost of the European trip, but I would have taken it anyway (and rented a car while I was there).

    From my point of view, my car completely meets my needs, wants and desires. It's fun to drive, economical (31 mpg on the highway), reliable (two years old and no unscheduled trips to the dealership), good looking inside and out, luxurious, certainly fast enough to get my attention, and capable enough to deal with it's power and ability to go fast. What do I mean by that last bit? On the autobahn during my ED trip, I was tooling along at the speed limiter (128.5 mph) when a motorcycle pulled out directly in front of me doing something like 60 mph. I performed an emergency lane change (unfortunately when he saw me in the mirror he did the same, keeping him directly in my sights), and then performed what could best be described as an anchor dropping test of the brakes. At our closest we only got within two feet of each other (him under full acceleration and me in panic stop mode) so he still had a little margin for his error and as such, he lived for another day (hopefully).

    Having said all of that, I have been reading here that there are certain cars of a similar price and size with bigger (if not substantially bigger) motors that are "superior" vehicles for the money. Uh-huh, right. I suppose anybody can throw a big engine in any given car and proclaim it superior to other similar cars with smaller engines, and I suppose to their way of thinking, it is. To my way of thinking, that's the easy part, and that it's the rest of the package that makes the "Upgraded" car truly superior. Would a CTS-V for instance, have acquitted itself as perfectly as my 530i did in the above situation? Unknown, but I suspect that the CTS-V is likely to have a much greater front end weight bias, and as such would not have been able to perform the lane change and the deceleration without hitting the individual on the bike after his ill advised maneuver.

    Balance, that's what the BMW offers, and yes, on paper it will certainly cost more for what you seem to get. So, if I had it to do all over again, and if I was faced with the choice of a CTS-V or my 530i for about the same price, what would I choose? Probably the BMW. Call me naïve, call me dumb, call me wasteful, call me a poseur, call me whatever you like. I can live with that. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    That site doesn't tell me anything about what CR found.

    M
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    I love it. In the end, you're happy.
  • kahunahkahunah Posts: 448
    Results likes these stem from surveys done on a vehicle spanning three model years. Trouble areas such as brakes, the electrical system, power equipment, and body integrity are surveyed.

    http://www.consumerreports.org/main/content/display_report.jsp?FO- LDER%3C%3Efolder_id=402621&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=389451&- bmUID=1078983779452#largesuvs

    Perhaps if you contact CR directly, they'll send their H2 problem findings...in a truck.
  • kahunahkahunah Posts: 448
    No Autobahns in North America :-(
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I'm aware of what they test, I was just asking what exactly what the problems were, its not that serious for me to contact CR.

    M
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    I know of two people personally who had catostrophic transmission failures on their H2s. We're talking totally blown trannies. Where? Off-road? LOL. These dorks bought the H2 for exactly the reason one would expect - to show off. One guy dumped his ZO6 for it and the other parted with his Boxster S because it was "too much trouble to shift."
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,527
    shipo, I'm glad you like your car and feel safe in it, but its extra mass means that it has worse skidpad numbers and longer braking than many of the cars in the title of this discussion. So I would certainly not say that they cannot handle the situation as well or better.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • chrisbothchrisboth Posts: 493
    Yeah I'd take a 28,000 G in that situation over any non M BMW. And I'd take a BMW over 99.8% of all other makes and models out there. I think the numbers and actual dynamics of both cars are good but there is a consistently better performance margin from the G which would indicate ease of manuevering in same situation. And we've beat the brakes thing to death. The BMW is more forgiving and not as sport as the barely entry lux G. Doubt there much to disagree with other than preference there. Both cars on the autobahn are better than any caddy - so far...Shipo hit it on the head pretty well with the stuffing a big motor in it doesn't make it better...I was dissapointed in what i've discovered about the CTSV and would hope a 300hp 6 and a better interor was in the making.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Extra mass compared to what? Not trying to pick a fight, however, the manual transmission version of the 530i weighs in at only 96 pounds more than a three pedal G35 Sedan; that's not even a tank of gas. That said, the SP on my 530i includes 235 section width tires as opposed to the 215 tires that come on the G35, my guess is that the extra inch of tire width will at least offset the whopping 96 pound weight difference. Call it a draw.

    Regarding my comment about another car acquitting itself as well as my car did in the situation I found myself in, you will notice that I was referring a (presumably) nose heavy CTS-V and not the G35. I consider the G a reasonably well balanced car with very acceptable driving characteristics. To my eye however, its styling inside and out just doesn't pass muster, which I understand is simply personal preference.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • bxd20bxd20 Posts: 68
    CTS-V is 54/46 according to Road and Track. That's not nose heavy.

    Since you are commenting quite a bit about your 5 series and weight, consider this comment by C&D Mar 2004 in regards to the M5 vs. CTS-V:

    "Cadillac's steering was gratifyingly precise. It turned in like Marshall Faulk cutting for the goal line, and if its weight transfer wasn't quite as smoothly managed as the M5's, there wasn't a hint of reluctance in its transient responses. The CTS-V was also perfectly happy to provide the driver with as much oversteer as he wanted. The breakaway might be a little more abrupt, but once rotation set in, it was easy enough to control with a judicious throttle foot."

    As we all know, the CTS-V edged out the M5 in lap times despite the driver admittingly short-shifting due to a faulty oil pressure sensor on the CTS-V. In his best estimate, he would have beaten the M3 as well if pushing the Caddy at 100%.

    Brian
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Hmmm, 54/46 sounds nose heavy to me, maybe not FWD nose heavy but front biased nonetheless, especially when compared to the 50.1/49.9 of the 530i.

    Regarding the E39 M5 that was so gracefully retired, still at the top of the heap last year; I suppose that Cadillac should in all fairness be able to crow about being "King of the Hill", for a while that is. Like everything else out there, the competition does not stand still. The odds on bet is that the CTS-V will once again be considered an "Also-Ran" in a year's time or so, just like the CTS has been since it was launched.

    Best Regards
    Shipo
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,527
    The TL is nose heavy, but still stops faster than the 530 and is neck and neck with last gen's sport package 530 on the skidpad (the 2004 is a big improvement, however).

    I do stand corrected on the mass, however. I thought it was much heavier than it really is.

    As far as the CTSV being an "also-ran", I think it will still be held up as "the most bang for the buck" regardless. Its the same reason the Z06 does so well in comparisons with much more expensive cars. Its not that its the best, but its good enough that the reviewers would opt for it and save a bundle of money over similar vehicles.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    "Cadillac's steering was gratifyingly precise. It turned in like Marshall Faulk cutting for the goal line, and if its weight transfer wasn't quite as smoothly managed as the M5's, there wasn't a hint of reluctance in its transient responses.

    Uh, Marshall Faulk hasn't cut smoothly in a couple years. He's basically Emmitt Smith Jr out there now.
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Posts: 650
    I am glad you avoided an accident and you are ok, but to say that your BMW 530 could do something and another car could not do it is simply ridiculus. Unless you have tried the same manuevuer with another car you are taking a huge leap of faith.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Ummm, maybe I missed it. Where exactly did I say that my 530i would do anything better than anything else?

    If I remember correctly, I said, "I suspect...". Yes, no?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Posts: 650
    Come on Shipo, you are implying that the CTS could never pull that maneuver because of what you infer about its weight distribution. Let's not kid.
  • billyperksbillyperks Posts: 449
    the ongoing conversations but I am just letting you all know that yesterday I gave a 528I a spanking it would never forget.
    The guy initiated the call and all he was looking at during the race was my TLS doulble pipes.

    One up for us FWD.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Given that the CTS-V and the 530i are within seven pounds of each other, with similar sized brakes and tires, and assuming that both cars have an ABS system that keeps the rubber on the ragged edge of lockup, and that both cars have the "Brake Assist" feature (I'm not sure about the CTS-V), my guess is that it would be a very close contest to see which car would slow down from 128 to about 70 the quickest.

    All else being equal (which of course it never is), the car with the better weight distribution should handle the maneuver better than the one with the front end weight bias. Would the CTS-V have acquitted itself as well? Maybe, maybe not.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • chrisbothchrisboth Posts: 493
    oooo - a TL beat the 200 hp machine of a 528. When you can pull on the 540i then you might impress someone
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    That's assuming this guy with his 528 was actually looking to race too. Seems many people think you're looking for trouble when you're just out and about.

    I get people all the time spinning their engines and glancing at my at stoplights. The light changes and then they take off. Have fun, bud. I like to play with my car but in SD racing or giving the appearance of racing is a sure ticket. No thanks.

    That said, once in awhile I'm at the front of a light, I know the two lanes become one quickly and somebody pulls up beside me doing the creep thing as they await the light change. We all know he wants to shoot out and take the lead.

    When I'm feeling nice, I let it slide. Feisty...I like to let him accelerate and I keep pace for a bit as his engine screams - seems SUV drivers do this the most often. As we build speed I finally just wave and punch it. Bu-bye...

    Silly people.

    I just know one of these days a kid with a turbo-charged protege will smack me in the face as he scampers away faster.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Depending on the year, the E39 528i had either 190 or 193 hp. Regardless of which one was the subject of the above abject humiliation; BillyPerks, you da man now!

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "The TL is nose heavy, but still stops faster than the 530 and is neck and neck with last gen's sport package 530 on the skidpad (the 2004 is a big improvement, however)."

    The TL has turned in some extremely disappointing stops from 70-0. Was it the R&T article that listed 188 feet? The 530 certainly stops faster than that from 70 to 0. So I don't see how it stops faster than the 530.
  • danny1878danny1878 Posts: 339
    STD VS STD 60-0 Edmunds stats of :
    BMW 530i 119.33 ft
    Acura TL 115.96 ft or msn auto 114 ft

    You dont see it while everybody else does :-)
  • chrisbothchrisboth Posts: 493
    I see good numbers on the TL in once place and see them very inconsistent everywhere else. The car does seem to give every tester a sub 6 0-60 so i'll give the car props for that. Just be careful when stomping it from a stop...people in other forums are saying if you're next to a TL and it launches it will veer right and one guy almost got slammed. I now stay to the left of TL's when appoaching lights - they are everywhere now. And a racy bunch too ;)
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