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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,111
    NP -- my guess is they "dumbed" it down for people who are looking for quieter engines and proper cupholders= prob in your wheelhouse then
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,111
    edited January 2012
    wow google is something-- nice work -my favorite line is "You stick to thinking that your mad horzepowerz yo! is where it's at. All I gotta say is, I regret not test driving a 328 before I got my G37."

    good research= does it say anything about the price spread?? any comments on the c350 we were speaking or are you just coming to your boys back with comparisions on cars we are not talking about--

    i love the 335== infact im looking for a 2010 335 6 speed with low miles, m package and x drive to replace my g- dont want to buy new because they are way overpriced but can justify used- tell your buddy, yo..
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,744
    Google is great, yo!!!! :P ;)
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,111
    edited January 2012
    Your welcome- yahoo is new 2 -love helping your boy but he's out of bullets - keep distracting the agrument it's great. Anyone who Wants to bring the Newley resigned c350 into a comparison vs a g37 I'm ready - bring friends like tlong - quite car lovers no matter the price
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,486
    MB and BMW are more expensive for comparable equipment. One could carefuly option those to get somewhat close to G or TL, as long as they can let go some of those luxuries.

    However, one of my biggest complaints is 3-seres and C-series having fold-down seat optional (except 328 wagon). There is really no excuse for that - 12K Kia and Hyundai have it standard - there is no excuse. It's all about hitting some arbitrary limit for advertising "starting at..." BS. I know, I have 328 - fortunately it's a wagon, so it has folding seats and sunroof standard, but sedan does not. What makes it worse, I see dealers actually ordering those without folding seats in large numbers. I can only imagine a brand new owner of 50K 335 trying to fold his/her seats and discovering the car doesn't have it. :sick: :lemon:

    On many other options, I'm more agnostic - there are merrits to both approaches (bundling and not bundling). I tend to want almost everything, but "experimental" stuff (like adaptive cruise control or variable speed steering), but bundling sports package with Nav is a little too much, even if I would order both anyway. To me it's OK to bundle related items in package, like all convenience, all tech, or all sports. But cross-bundling does sound a little like making a run on customer's wallet, even if some customers would take them both.

    For value-oriented people probably nothing beats Acura - you get everything except Nav/technology. I like it, but it does have its limits - front wheel drive base version is one and that ugly nose :lemon:. We still don't have it so bad here - you would have to see a price sheet on BMW in Europe - it's actually a book!!! Proverbial mirrors and steering wheel are optional. Of course, they also have three times as many engine versions, which creates many more permutations, but that's a different story entirely. Not to mention everything costs nearly twice as much (literally - $50K+ 335 would likely cost you almost 100 grand there).

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited January 2012
    FWIW, I don't have a personal stake or emotions tied to this discussion because I don't own any of the cars in this segment. Also, I can research (and maybe eventually purchase) a boring Passat or Subaru Outback for my wife without craving more excitement because I already own an honest sports car that gives me more driving and ownership pleasure than any car in this segment ever could.

    M-B C350 Standard features missing on the G37 Journey:

    *Sport suspension with electronic control adaptive dampers
    *Adaptive brakes with predictive brake priming, auto brake drying, and hill start assist
    *14 way power driver seat with power lumbar adjust
    *Power steering column
    *Driver memory with settings for seat, mirrors, and steering column
    *Auto dim rearview and driver outside mirror
    *Moonroof
    *Wood trim accents
    *Rain sensing automatic wipers
    *Split-fold rear seats
    *Harman Kardan Logic 7 450 Watt audio
    *9 airbags including pelvis and knee airbags
    *Attention Assist to detect driver drowsiness

    G37 Journey standard features missing on the C350:

    *Xenon headlamps
    *Leather seats
    *Keyless start
    *Free metallic paint

    Please let me know if I've missed anything...

    So, my assertion that the G37 lacks quite a few features seems to be valid. But more importantly, did you notice that most of the C350 features are performance or safety related while the G37 features are basically fluff? But to even things up as accurately as possible, let's load them both up as closely as we can...

    So, a C350 with added Xenon headlamps, leather seats, Navigation, metallic paint, 18" wheels, and Keyless Start costs $46,440.

    Now, a G37 Journey with wood trim, Premium Package, Navigation Package, and Sport Package costs $45,045.

    It looks like the Mercedes is $1400 more expensive than the G37.

    But the G37 still lacks electronic adaptive suspension, adaptive brakes, and attention assist. Also missing are headlights with adaptive highbeams, curve assist and headlamp washers, split-fold rear seats, knee and pelvis airbags, and rain-sensing wipers.

    The C350 lacks DVD playback, Zagat Restaurant Guide, aluminum pedals, magnesium shift paddles, and a Viscous Limited Slip.

    Draw your own conclusions - I'm exhausted... :sick:
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited January 2012
    I discovered an error in my research. I'm not sure what I did, but the above described C350 actually costs $48,190, not $46,440. (Edit: the $1750 leather seats didn't get added in)

    I also just noticed that when I added the wood trim to the G37, it automatically added the $1200 Technology Package, which includes rain-sensing wipers and pre-crash seatbelts. Since these are standard features on the C350, this doesn't change the math in my previous post.

    The increase in the price of the C350 raises the gap between the Merc and Infiniti up to about $3150.

    However, something else occurred to me...

    Take the well equipped C350 described above and remove the metallic paint ($720), 18" wheels ($1040), and leather interior ($1750) - options which affect appearance only (barely, if at all) and have no effect on performance, comfort, safety, or functionality.

    The same C350 now costs $44,680 - a savings of $3500!

    Now do the same thing with the above described G37 and remove the wood trim...oh wait, the Technology Package requires the wood trim. OK, lets remove the 18" wheels...nope, they're part of the Sport Package that includes the upgraded suspension. Leather seats are standard, so that's not an option. OK, I hate to lose it, but what about the moonroof? Sorry, it's part of the Premium Package which includes driver memory settings and Bose premium audio.

    The C350 now costs $350 less than the G37. Bundles = :mad:
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,111
    What honest sports car do you own?

    Nothing wrong with outback - crocodile Dundee drive one for years.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited January 2012
    Happy New Year fellow enthusiasts!

    image

    image

    SRP Lapping Video
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited January 2012
    What trim level and options does your G37 have?
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,602
    Very nice Fedlawman.. I have wanted to get up your way and play on the racetrack. It reminds me of Sears Point errr Infineon Raceway... Does your baby have the 2.3l 4 cyl or a 6 cyl ?
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,602
    Sween has a G35.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,111
    sweet rig-- love the rear flares at the back corner.
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    I find it can be a bit embarrassing when you ask leading questions without knowing the answers beforehand.

    How about you... Got any opinion on that?
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,111
    edited January 2012
    embarrassing, ok..

    congrats on the new tranny in your rig-- shouldnt you be on a long trip right now?

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f24cc96/1!keywords=#MSG1
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,744
    edited January 2012
    Sween has a G35.

    ...the growler....but lots of power and it's a rocket! :P
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited January 2012
    Thanks Flightnurse. I've lapped at Spokane and Seattle and they are great tracks. Unfortunately, I travel a lot for work during the summer months and probably won't get to lap the "great" American road courses (Infineon, Gingerman, etc.) until after I retire.

    It used to be a 2.3L, but it's had a few upgrades...

    EVO III 10.2 : 1 pistons
    EVO III 2.5 crankshaft
    EVO III 272 degree intake cam
    EVO II 264 degree exhaust cam
    Ported/polished cylinder head
    EVO III valve springs
    EVO III airbox
    EVO III Air Flow Meter
    EVO III intake trumpets
    EVO III 48 mm throttle bodies
    EVO III (big green) injectors
    Gruppe A 2 piece 50mm exhaust header
    EVO III lightweight flywheel
    Powdercoated intake plenum/valve cover
    Oil pan baffle
    Z3 1.9 (short) shifter
    Bilstein Sport Shocks/Eibach Springs
    Eibach strut tower brace
    Supersprint center resonator and muffler
    17x8 BMW Style 5 two piece wheels
    215/40-17 Pirelli PZero Nero tires
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,111
    indeed i do- back when i bot only 3 cars had similar power. one was the TL (we all know how I feel about the looks) the other was BMW 335. Price was my deciding factor. 4 years 29k miles- no problems except replacing pads at 20k which i thought was real early. 15mpg in the city also tough.

    it is a rocket= but sounds like a tank according to my 95 year old grandfather.

    edmunds helped me with the decision -
    http://www.insideline.com/infiniti/g35/2007/comparison-test-2007-2008-sport-seda- ns.html
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited January 2012
    Some reviews have said that the MY 2006 3.5 was smoother than the current 3.7 - that the bore and stroke job added a few horsies, but apparently increased the harshness.

    Also notice that the peak TQ rating for the current VQ is only 9 higher than the MY 2006 car and occurs 400 RPM higher. Peak HP is up 30 but it arrives 700 RPM higher.

    Robbing from Peter to pay Paul is a tuning trick the manufacturers use to raise the HP on paper. The rated HP is higher now, but a sacrifice in midrange grunt is the trade-off.
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    Actually, my daughter is on the road with the car at this very moment, and since it's her car, well...

    I elected to take the start of the New Year off and veg around the house...
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,467
    He's actually got a 2.5 L 4cyl E30 EVO M3.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,467
    I love the pix & the video of your E30 M3!

    I never realized how cheap competitively priced the new C350 really is. Built My Own C350 & it came out to $45,350 with standard paint, mb text, lighting pkg, & multimedia pkg. If you put the same options in a C250 Sport, it comes out to not that much less. Now MB doesn't give me a "row your own" or AWD option.

    I quickly built my own 335xi w/ 6 speed stick, leatherette, metallic paint, sport pkg, 18" wheels, NAV, cold weather, & Sirius. MSRP $50,925. Now when the new 320i 328i comes out with the turbo 4, this might get interesting.

    Someone made a comment about special order BMWs. Yes, here in the northeast dealers stock mostly what people walk on the lot to buy (328xi with auto, premium, cold weather, nav). Ordering a BMW does not mean paying MSRP.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited January 2012
    Thanks NYC, I'm glad you enjoyed them! If you explore my Youtube page a little, you'll find a few helicopter videos I made with the new camera I got for my birthday last month. I'm still experimenting with it so they're a little rough...

    Yes, I was very surprised to discover how much value is actually in the C350. Pretty cars, and impressive performance and safety too. I would never actually buy one though - too much technology to fail a few years down the road and too expensive to fix.

    I am excited about the upcoming 328i though. I've never really liked the E90, but this F30, with significantly more power (torque!) and less weight, has the potential to be a real game changer. I predict it will steal a lot of 335i sales and be THE sales and value leader in this segment. I also think it's much better looking than the E90. And following current industry trends, it should also be less expensive than the E90.

    If options are anything like the 2011 model, a base model 6-speed MT with a moonroof and heated seats (a la carte! :blush: ) should sticker for between $36K and $37K.

    Do you think my wife will like it?
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,111
    http://www.edmunds.com/mercedes-benz/c-class/2012/road-test2.html

    Review of the mb coupe. They also mentioned the robbing Peter to pay Paul of the engine. Would love to read a comparo test in sedan with the group.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    This is the game one plays when comparing a German manufacturer vs a Japanese manufacturer.

    One can either see what a given price point gives or option the vehicles as nearly as identically as possible and see the price difference.

    The 350 is a classier car, but the G37 is definitely the value leader not giving up anything in performance to any other car in this segment. There has been a lot of discussion on the NVH at wot of the G37, I could care less as long as the thing goes, when I step on the gas. The enthusiasts will nit pick everything.

    Different strokes for different folk. I do like the 350 and maybe will look at that as my next car.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    I agree with you completely KD. That's why I said the other day that it's not a fight with a winner and loser, but a circular discussion with no end.

    I really like the G37 too, and agree that in Journey Trim, it's the performance value leader of this segment. Personally though, if I was shopping in this segment, I would want my sporty car to have an equal measure of luxury.

    The European cars have the secret formula. Stylish and luxurious cabins, smooth powerful drivetrains, and sublime ride and handling. Infiniti is close, but not quite there.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Posts: 1,580
    edited January 2012
    I agree with you completely KD. That's why I said the other day that it's not a fight with a winner and loser, but a circular discussion with no end.
    ......................................The European cars have the secret formula. Stylish and luxurious cabins, smooth powerful drivetrains, and sublime ride and handling. Infiniti is close, but not quite there.


    I agree with you but in saying this, you've kept the endless circle going. Can't we agree to disagree, the "different strokes for different folks" attitude, and just move on? :)
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited January 2012
    It's the journey that gives me happiness, not the destination. ;)
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,602
    Very nice Fedlaw the engine growl is just right when WO, I remember when these car came out, I just graduated college was making great $ and went with the MB 190E 2.3-16 with a 5 spd manual. I wish I still had that car.

    If you ever have a change get down to Laguna Seca there is NO track like it...
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,602
    I have test driven a new C350 coupe, my only issue is the "sport" package isn't that much sport.... If MB would do a real sport package and place a manual tranny in it, I think they would sell more.

    So now I'll keep my 2011 328i with M sport package and 2005 330is with the ZHP package.
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