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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,317
    edited February 2012
    This is a prime example of why I buy used. And if you want all those options, I suggest you do the same. Most of those depreciate far faster than the "rest of the car." Take, for example, the NAV. You pay $2500 new .... that's worth all of ~$500 at trade time. Metallic paint? $0. Sport pack $800. Heated seats $0. HIDs $0. Etc. And all of this is independent of age, to an extent. Those are the same values whether the car is 2 months or 2 years old. They start going down after about year 5 or so, in most situations.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,567
    I've only owned new my entire driving life from 2 weeks after I got my license in 1992. I'm not going to be in the market for another car for a while. A 3 year old 2013 X3 or 328i w/ X drive off lease with a little more than 45K on the clock for $25 - $28K represents a fantastic value compared to their respective almost $50 something thousand dollar MSRPs. I know they've been well maintained & will run for a long time. With young children, it would be much smarter of me to buy a $28K car as opposed to a $48K car. I'll let you know when the time comes. Right now, my TSX gives me the sporty ride I need for my daily commute & my Prelude Type SH gives me "yeah baby" for once or twice a week I crave brilliant handling. Your 135i is a fantastic car for the money.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    The idea of buying used cars is great, the problem with it is that there were no cars matching my list anywhere within 2 thousand miles - in fact there are not cars even close to one I wanted. Manual tranny - nope, wagon - nope, combined - forget it. So I got a new one. Of course I (over)paid, but did it willingly. When I spent 45 grand this Fall, I decided that the car will be EXACTLY the way I want it, as long as it is available - not close, not more-less, exactly. And it had all those "full depreciation" items: Nav, HID (part of convenience package), sports package. I was initially against 2-grand Navigation, thought Garmin would do, but they dropped the price by $600 when combined with Premium package, making the price more pallatable.

    My general stance on depreciation I don't care, because I buy a car for myself, not the next owner. I also like to keep it 6 to 8 years, as long as it's in good shape and has no major issues. At that point the depreciation is not such a big issue anyway . Doesn't always work this way; as a matter of fact, just traded a three-year-old Subaru STI, but that one was from the get-go intended to be a transition car. BTW, the depreciation came out just great, as I paid in November '08 $33K with all taxes and fees (even got no-interest loan on top) and sold it last week for $22.8K - less than $300/month!). So it worked out, even though I didn't care about it.

    Don't expect a similar miracle with my 328i wagon though. But again - as long as it stays in shape, I'll keep it. Until now there was always "the next car", even at the very moment of purchase. This time there is no "next car" for me, not from what they have to offer. Perhaps, if Audi brings S4 wagon again (but they won't), or the new 3-series Gran Turismo (MY 2013 and beyond) comes in 335i flavor and manual tranny (which it probably won't), or they go really crazy and make M3 or M5 in some hatchback/wagon flavor (which they won't).

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,633
    HOwever if you buy the car with cash then you don't have much to worry about. With BMW, you get the 4yr 50K full warrenty, with my 2011 I added it up 6yrs 100Kmiles. I do not plan on keeping the 2011 for 6 yrs, 4 tops. I like the 2011 don't get me wrong, but I feel a Z4 in my future. My 2005 330ic with the ZHP package I plan on keep for a while..

    So some people like to buy new and some do not, there is not a right or wrong choice here.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,317
    HOwever if you buy the car with cash then you don't have much to worry about.

    That, of course, has nothing to do with depreciation.

    I do not plan on keeping the 2011 for 6 yrs, 4 tops.

    6 years isn't bad. 4 years isn't so great. You definitely get hit hard in that case.

    So some people like to buy new and some do not, there is not a right or wrong choice here.

    Well, of course people can do whatever they want with their money. If someone wants to waste more, that is their perogative. I certainly have no right to preach. I am quite wasteful myself on my car spending .... just not nearly as wasteful as I would be if I purchased new.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,633
    Preaching is what you are doing. The group you are talking to now the ins and out of depreciation, cars and how to get the best deal.

    If you pay cash for your car there is no interest in the purchase, so the dollar outlay is less. I paid $39K (out the door) for my 2011 328i. In four years if I sell it for $30K I lost only 9K, I wont have more then 35K miles on the car, so selling it or trading it in wont be a problem.

    Now if you wont to buy a 2 yr old car, then buy a 2 yr old car, I like others do not want a used car, this should be the end of this discussion.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,317
    edited February 2012
    You must be talking to someone else.

    Here is what I said:
    This is a prime example of why I buy used. And if you want all those options, I suggest you do the same.

    Reread that again and again if you think I'm preaching. "Why I buy used." And "I suggest."

    Only friendly advice in those words. Hell, I regretted it after I posted it because I don't actually WANT folks to follow it. I'm grateful to those that load up their new vehicles and take a bath 2 years later.

    The group you are talking to now [sic] the ins and out [sic] of depreciation

    You certainly can't speak for everyone. Actually, MOST people don't realize the depreciation of options. So, again, I was offering up a SUGGESTION, along with some historical data. You certainly don't need to gives a rat's bum about my advice. Again, that's your perogative. I didn't offer it for your exclusive benefit.

    By the way, you won't be selling a 4-year-old 328i for $30k. Low-mileage '08s are going for right around $20k at auction, meaning, at the most, $24k retail and $22k private party. But I'm sure you knew that.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,992
    I paid $39K (out the door) for my 2011 328i. In four years if I sell it for $30K I lost only 9K

    LOL. I assume you paid sales tax and other fees so the car was probably around a sales price of $37k. Depreciation of less than 19% in four years? Good luck.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,567
    I didn't mean to throw up a topic & start an argument between 2 posters. Especially q who is our resident auction maven & 135i driver and flightnurse who tracks his ZHP on a regular basis & found an awesome E90 low optioned 328i w/ SP & stick. "Can't we all just get along?"

    Like I stated, I've only bought (or leased) new cars since the glorious day I got my license back in August 1992. I'm happy with my 2010 Acura TSX as a DD (could use more power, hydraulic steering, & MUCH better brakes), but am not head over heels in love with it (like I am my 2001 Prelude Type SH). My TSX was also a car that I bought originally for my wife with Cash 4 Clunkers money that I knew I'd be driving on the weekend, but not every day. This changed when we decided to have a 3rd child and now needed a bigger vehicle. Bought her a 2011 Pilot, The 2010 TSX becomes my DD, & my beloved Prelude gets driven once or twice a week (yes it gets the garage with the Pilot).

    I'm always thinking (building online & checking out used car values) about what's next. I know the financially smart thing to do is to pay off the TSX (just refinanced), and drive it with no payment until the wheels fall off. Cars are my "thing." I've been hooked on BMWs ever since I drove a friend's '95 E36 325is (stick, sport) through the streets of Buffalo one winter night when I was in college. I leased my wife an '07 X3 and just loved the way it drove. It was never in the shop once except for scheduled maintenance.

    With 3 kids and a mortgage, I think it would be selfish of me to go out and buy an almost $50K car (328xi or X3). If in a few years, I can muster together a small down payment, then I can convince the board of directors (my wife) that this Mid to high used $20K BMW (X3 or 328xi) is what i want and I think it'll last, then I'll go for it! Life's way too short to drive boring cars.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,317
    edited February 2012
    Hey, don't forget my poor 540. :P

    You reminded me... I wanted to also say that's the one nice thing about the Acura (well, seems to be most Japanese vehicles): low-to-no options. There is something to be said for simplicity and standard features.

    The Germans are notoriously horrible in that regard. I was shocked to see at a Porsche show that you could actually option up a base Boxster into 911 GTS territory!

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    edited February 2012
    paid $39K (out the door) for my 2011 328i. In four years if I sell it for $30K I lost only 9K, I wont have more then 35K miles on the car, so selling it or trading it in wont be a problem

    Talking delusional :D :D And my house is worth half a milon. :P

    After four years you'd be lucky to get $20K for a stripper 328. Unless you got something like 10 grand discount (which I doubt), it was probably base plus one package, no sunroof, no sports, no HID.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,567
    Something that I do love about my Acura. Tech pkg was the only option. Auto was a no cost option.

    Porsche's options are insane. It is cool how customizable the cars are from the factory. My Mom drives a 2011 V6 Cayenne. I think there are only 3 options on it, but one is a $10,000 option package.

    It is crazy if you ever look on a Porsche dealer's website to see inventory. Some of them have PDK equipped base boxsters with $70K + MSRPs.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,633
    I would like to hear from the regulars of this group if I shouldn't have made the comment "he group you are talking to now [sic] the ins and out [sic] of depreciation" is false!

    Regarding my 328i, first you are making an assumption that my 328 is a strip down car, MSRP was almost 47K, the GM ordered this car as an experiment and it failed on him. Here in Phoenix, 99% of all 3 series cars (non M cars) are sold with automatics, the GM wanted to see if he ordered a 328i with M sport package, (leather was a free option on my 328) xenon head lights, keyless access, cold weather package, moon roof would sell, and it did't not sale, it sat on the lot for 5 months. I must have hit the showroom at the right time, that is why I got the smoking deal. So yes most base 328 with very little options are selling at mid to low 20s. BTW, the average buyer can not get cars at auction prices so that is a mood point. So currently at one of the local BMW dealers in Phoenix, has 2 BMW 328s with the M sport package with 40 and 49K miles are asking 28 and 30K for them. Mine will have less then 40K and keep in pristine condition with all the right option.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,633
    Yes porsche does have a nice long list of options, I was looking at a Caynne GTS, however when I optioned it out how I want it, it was 93K....
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    edited February 2012
    So, you say you got $47K MSRP for $39K with taxes (that's what OTD means in my dictionary)? Even with dealer incentives, it's still five grand below dealer cost. Wow, on that I can only say your it sounds just too good to be true, but since you say you got it, congratulations and kudos.

    Now, on the resale: I'm no expert, I just sold a three year old car last week. First, the fact that dealers post $30K on something, doesn't mean you can sell same thing for that. Buyers don't care about auction prices, but dealers do when they take a trade. If you want to sell it individually, be prepared for weeks of no phone calls interrupted by text messages from people wanting to give you less that dealer would. I just went through that personally just in last month. Finally I sold it, but the reality was quite painful. You may have more patience and you obviously have more luck than me, so who knows.

    Well, it is funny you said about the "experiment" car. That's very close to what I got (no M package, but regular sports package, convenience pkg and Nav). The car was about $46.5K MSRP. Nowhere near your discount, but it was ordered, so no reason to go below costs either.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,145
    Your story sounds alot like those "leader adds" that manufactures put on there websites. Sorry guy
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,633
    dino I can only say the "experiment" was the word the GM used to me, I had no reason not to believe him, why would the car sit on the lot for 5 months with no bites. the Color combo was great, the options were right on the mark, except it was a manual and not an auto.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,567
    I'm sure you got calls from some serious characters selling your STi (right?). What were you offered by your BMW dealer on the trade? How much more did you get selling the car privately?

    Flightnurse - auction values are relevant because that's what you are offered (at least here in the north east) for your trade.

    I'm trying to talk myself into buying used next time around, so I'm trying to look at the glass as half full. Most BMWs here in the north east are leased for 3 years. When the lease is up, the car has anywhere from 30K to 45K miles on it. The car is still under warranty, has had all maintenance done by the dealer (ok, so not by Mike Miller's old school maintenance schedule) and is still in relatively good condition. It might have a new set of tires, fresh oil, and at least front brake pads & rotors. BMWs are wonderfully built machines who's life is FAR from over when the 50K mile warranty expires.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    Again, manual is just for me. Now, if I could only believe somebody would take 5+ grand loss just to get rid of it. I did some basic math. $47K MSRP car is about $44K invoice. Then we may have dealer incentive (2011 is last year of the model), say 2 grand or so. So to get to $39K OTD we have price at $35K-$36K. That's possible 6 grand hit. Say there is another thousand or two lying around with the mfr - still 4 grand loss. Dealer finances inventory at say 6 APR on their revolving account (maybe more, I don't know, but it seems reasonable). Car is $43 or so invoice, which means it cost the dealer about 2.5 grand to finance it over full year. Why would one take this hit after just five months? Is there something you want to tell us? ;)

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    edited February 2012
    Yeah, that was the worst part. Those jokers from 300 miles away sending you a text "would you take XXXX" . The long story was in December I got $22.5K offer from dealer ('08 STI, 37K miles, perfect interior, some scratches on exterior - $36.5K new MSRP, got it for $33 OTD - Subaru had $2.5K bonus cash then, it was November '08, Lehman Bros. just declared bankruptcy). Should have taken it right then. I decided to put in on Autotrader. Couple of serious calls, joker texts, showed it to one serious buyer, no avail, wife would not let him. At last, got a second buyer - lady buying it for her son (actually it is his money, but she's still calling the shots). It is month and a half from the time, I'm a little exhausted and she read me well. Bottom line - accepted 22.8K, which basically is about my "storage" costs added to the dealer's offer. But time passage also impacts the depreciation, so I think a dealer's offer today would be less than then. Playing it back in my head, I probably left five hundred to thousand on the table - but it's done, moving on. I take it as a lesson.

    Weird thing is, Edmunds TMV is far, far less than Kelley/NADA, not only on dealer retail, but also on trade. This is first time I saw such discrepancy - usually it is that Edmunds tells you trade is more than Kelley/NADA, but retail is less. Here, they all three values down by several thousands. I think it has something to do with low supply due the tsunami. Seeing my transaction, I'm inclined to thing Edmunds is wrong this time - it looks to me as a computer calculating price based on predicted value rather than actual asking/transaction prices, which seem to be in Kelley/NADA case.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,145
    Experiment = leader add? Are you sure its not a 323 you own and not a 328?
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    Those are sold in Canada, but not US.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,317
    Regarding my 328i, first you are making an assumption that my 328 is a strip down car ...

    No, I'm not. Actually, I'm assuming it has the right options. In the used car world, most options are assumed to be there and you start deducting when they aren't. So when I said $20k, that assumed premium package and auto trans, at the least. I didn't realize you had a stick. So the $22k is probably generous.

    You apparently don't understand depreciation as you said you did because you failed to realize my main point, which is that most options add zero-to-very-little value to a used car.

    BTW, the average buyer can not get cars at auction prices so that is a mood [sic] point.

    Thanks for that. Did you wonder why I posted selling prices as well as auction prices? :confuse:

    So currently at one of the local BMW dealers in Phoenix, has 2 BMW 328s with the M sport package with 40 and 49K miles are asking 28 and 30K for them.

    Good for them. But, as your own buying story indicates, asking price and selling price are vastly different things. I'd also bet those are CPO.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    edited February 2012
    Nurse may be a classic example of somebody who assumes they should get their car 20% below invoice, but same car should sell later 20% above dealer retail, just for mere fact of them keeping it in a garage and washing it every week. :D Look for highest dealer asking price in their area, add another twenty percent to that is and then say "That's the value of my car". LOL :D

    I disagree a bit with you on options. There is some "basic level" assumed, which usually may be above stripper, but there are options adding value, at least in first couple of years. Manual transmission does not have to be a value subtracting proposition for BMW - the car is rare enought to attract a few sporty stick shift afficionados, especially with M-package. That's a good combo. May not attract a buyer first day, but chances are those who show up may be more motivated - of course there will also be jokers as well.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,145
    Talking Mazda .
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    Now, THAT IS funny :D :D

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,317
    edited February 2012
    but there are options adding value, at least in first couple of years

    well, yes, of course. Those that I detailed in one of my posts above. With BMWs, for example, premium is assumed. Sport adds value, as does Nav. They do, however, as I said, suffer worse depreciation than the rest of the car.

    A stick does hurt it at trade time, but you are correct that it doesn't have to hurt it at selling time. Dealers do the same thing. That's a sort of joke I've told before, and complained to salespeople about, too... they'll tell me "nobody wants it" when trading it to them, but then its "rare/hard to come by!" when buying it from them. So poor stick drivers get the shaft coming and going.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    I agree - options do depreciate faster than base. I heard that Toyota actually accounts for that in their lease formulas (different residual percentage for base and different for options), which is probably smart thing for their protection, but will significantly increase lease payment for loaded models.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,567
    "...complained to salespeople about, too... they'll tell me "nobody wants it" when trading it to them, but then its "rare/hard to come by!" when buying it from them. So poor stick drivers get the shaft coming and going."

    Very well said Q! Right on the money!

    dino - I know the ride, build quality (solidness), RWD handling balance are very different between your 328iT & your WRX STi, but how are you holding up with the severe power differences between the 2 cars.

    Q - I totally agree with you regarding the auction values of cars, that's what you get from the dealer whether it is a 10/10 or a 7/10. They deduct more if the car is in rough shape and don't add so much if the car is truly exceptional.

    Sometimes, if you have the perfect car for the perfect buyer, things can work out in both of your favors. Back in 1998, when we graduated college a friend of mine had to have a Mustang Convertible with a stick. He special ordered a V6 (VEE SIX) Mustang Convertible with a stick. We tell him he's NUTS because everyone who wants a Mustang with a Stick Shift is going to want a GT (V8) & he's going to have a lot of trouble selling the car when the time comes.

    To say my friend is anal about how he keeps his cars is and understatement. He also made it look like a GT (Dual Exhaust, Rear Bumper to Integrate dual exhaust, fake hood scoop...).

    Fast forward to 2003. He Special orders a MINI Cooper S. His MINI comes in and he starts looking into selling his Faux GT V6 5 SPeed Mustang Convertible. I do some research for him & tell him that given the way domestics depreciate & given his car is a complete odd ball to expect to get maybe $11K TOPS for the car.

    He lists it himself anyway after getting trade in offer of like $10-$10,5 (Plus paying full sticker for the MINI). He gets a call from some 16 year old kid who wants a Mustang with a stick, but insurance (& his parents) prohibits him from buying a V8. He likes the stick, the convertible, (Mom Likes the V6), & most importantly the faux GT styling. I think my friend got $16K for his car.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    Well, I don't miss that power because I didn't really need it at the first place. I already feel my 41 years of age, so kid cars don't excite me as much. I got that STI because it was a deal one could not resists. Nice to get and have for a while, but glad it's over now. Traded these horses for better mileage, refinement, quiet cabin, and good stuff inside with no regrets. It is 230 hp vs 305, but in torque it is 200@2750 vs 290@4400, which means at low end the difference is less and delivery is linear. 328 is deceptively quick - not explosive or screaming, but it is just enough. I like it just the way it is.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

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