Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

1418419421423424590

Comments

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,900
    Maybe they have 30K intervals so this way they'll try to get more people to pay for the upgraded 6yr/100K maintenance pkg;)

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,455
    nyc.....$47K for a 4 cyl sedan is expensive, regardless of who makes it. You can get an awful lot of cars, with luxury name plates, that have a nice 6 cyl under the hood, for a whole lot less.

    I know BMW is spinning it as a move to better MPG. In this country, at least, that's a tough sell, however.

    I suppose some will fall into the showroom just because of the badge (just like those who pay major dollars for a C series, regardless of how whimpy the motor is in them).

    You can get a 335i for considerably less than $50K (discounted). I did it.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,541
    edited February 2012
    I also think it is surprising (and even disapointing) they could not get their duck in row with xdrive, but to me since RWD is BMW lineage anyway, I don't see this as a big blow. They have always done phase-in approach, but this one is a little odd, as there will be old and new sedans being sold at the same time with same badges, just one "x" or "d" (diesel is also old) letter difference. Strange and confusing to some to say the least.

    And you're welcome for the grammar lesson. As an immigrant (legal), I like to give back to the local folk. Nothing better than some literacy lessons . ;) :P (ducking and covering)

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,613
    They may have made that clear ... but I don't think they were telling the truth.

    Why, then, do they have far cheaper examples in Europe? Why, then, do they offer a $31k 1-series? Frankly, I think claiming they don't WANT to offer it here is sour grapes. They don't believe there to be enough of a market to warrant it and/or they don't want to canibalize their own sales (would someone who stretched themself to buy a new 328 rather buy a 320? probably.), so they'd rather just say "I don't wanna."

    That's my uneducated guess, anyway.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    I don't have a problem with a 4 cylinder BMW - Audi and Mercedes have them. The problem I do have is that NA isn't available anymore.

    People ranted on and on when the dipstick went away and the cars became "leasers" (keep it for 3 years then ditch it) because of the inability to self-maintain them. Shade tree mechanics used to love BMWs, but not these new ones. And now, with a turbo in all of the 3ers, BMW is telling "don't even think of working on this car yourself." They might as well remove the hood latch mechanism...

    As much as I like the engineering, performance, and economy of a turbo-4, I would never buy one.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,613
    I don't necessarily mind the electronic oil level gauge. BUT, the problem with it is you can't check the level without running the engine! Ummm... anyone else see a problem there? "I think my oil is low, so I'd better run the engine to find out." :surprise:

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,541
    edited February 2012
    Why, then, do they have far cheaper examples in Europe?

    That's not entirely accurate description of their European offering. What they have there is lots of different versions and options with their smaller-engine offerings obviously are cheaper to manufacture, but their prices are HIGHER than here - and by higher I mean INSANE.

    They didn't have there "old" 328i (there were 325i and 330i, positioned just below/above in terms of hp, I believe these are same engines as those offered here before 2008), they have 335i just the same. If you configure one sold in German market to what sells here (largest in Europe), you come up with some ridiculous values. It would cost you there near double to get similar vehicle, I am not kidding (currency exchange already included). 335i for 100 grand anyone? A visit in BMW Welts is a real eye opener. A 1-series with smaller engine than here can cost you there equivalent of a base 5-series here. If you want to pay what we pay here, you come up with a base NA 4-cyl. engine, cloth seats, no extras of any kind. So it is not that people buy there 316i because they really want to and they simply don't like 335i, it's basicall most they can afford to buy. If you add their gas station bill being about double of ours, you get the picture. Oh no, if they'd take 328 or 335 in a heart beat if they paid what we pay.

    People, you don't even realize how tough US market is for those guys and how lucky (demanding) we really are. They pay labor rates higher than here (especially if you factor in taxes paid by the employer) then they have to come here and sell it for a little more than half the price they'd command in their domestic market. If you realize that, you wonder how they are able to sell anything here at a profit and still offer decent (perhaps not great) choices.

    On the flip side, there everybody gets choices upon choices, even in lower end brands. A typical 3-series price sheet is two pages here for a given body style, there it's a twenty-plus page booklet just for the same body style. People rarely buy from dealer's lots, they order and pick it up three to six months later. They often can't really test drive the car with engine they order (that's regardless of brand). Totally different experience.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,900
    I agree that $47K is expensive for a 4cyl sedan. Heck, a 528xi w/ a 4cyl can be optioned well into the $60K range (yikes). I don't know if there is a stigma about driving a 4cyl car like there used to be back in the '80s & '90s. The "serial leasse will no doubt take the F30 out on a test drive and feel it has the same amount (or more, I haven't driven one yet) of "pickup.". The salesman mentions it's a 4cyl turbo that gets 30 something MPG on the highway. The customer hasn't driven a 4 cyl car since their early 1990's Toyota Tercel says: "wow, 4 cyl engines sure have changed."

    You got a fantastic deal on a smokin 335i w x drive coupe. So you are right, it is possible.

    BMW is a performance luxury brand. In the American market, performance (for the masses) is equated by 0-60 mph times. They don't want a 320i NA 4cyl in their stable that does the sprint in 7.5 - 8.5 sec.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,613
    edited February 2012
    OK, but what is the overall cost of living and average income? I mean, if we're talking US dollars here, is it just a matter of the US dollar being worth far less there? I'm not an economics guy by any stretch of the imagination (nor am I a world traveler), mind you, but I'm pretty sure something just simply costing more there means it is more expensive in relation to the average joe. Know what I mean?

    I know this is going back a ways, but I know base Benzes, for example, served taxi duty. I would guess that's because they are relatively cheap, no? Does that still hold true today? Are they still used for that purpose?

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,541
    edited February 2012
    Yes, there was a loss of value of the dollar in recent years, which opened the gap further than before to those insane levels, but it has always been there, even during strong dollar times. America has always been a land of cheap cars and energy. The payoff was lack of sophistication, generally relatively fewer choices, lower expectations of quality, especially fit/finish. An American buys a car (used or new) with an expectation of a trade in next three-five years, European expects to to keep it "for life", even if they ultimately do not. That sets a tone, pretty dramatically. They spend much higher portion of their income and then their operating costs are also higher to their income, which sets expectations very high. You'd have to watch some Top Gear comments every time they get an American-made vehicle for a test.

    Ford Focus is sold there as "family" vehicle. It is sold with 1.4 and 1.6 engines. Ford Mondeo/(Contour/Fusion) is considered an "middle level executive" - also sold with 1.6-1.8 engine. In many countries there is a big tax and insurance penalty when you go over 2 litters. Denmark has new car registration fees at levels comparable to value of the car. I'm not kidding - people have been known to take loans to pay off registration tax. And the list goes on. Even Germans, most affluent of all Europe drive mostly VW, Fords and Opels in configurations that would make Americans laugh.

    Taxi Benz is nothing like Benz you see here, the only thing in common is the shell and the star on the hood. It used to be attractive for taxi because of durability of their base NA diesel engine vs. price relation to other brands. Regardless if you buy a Ford or Benz, you will spend much higher share of income, but Benz (used to) offer million mile durability, tons of spare parts available from knock off manufacturers.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,541
    edited February 2012
    but I'm pretty sure something just simply costing more there means it is more expensive in relation to the average joe.

    Don't want to sound condiscending, but Americans are really cute sometimes. Let me tell you what an average median income Joe Brit/Hans Deutch/Jose Span/Jaques the French get from life: They live in a 800 sf apartment in a multi-apartment house, commute to work with bus/trane and on weekends they drive a five-to-eight years old Ford Focus/Renault Megane/Opel Astra with 90-110 hp engine, most likely diesel. Dr. Hans or Dept. Manager Jaques have vastly better life - they live in 1500 sf house and commute in three-year-old Ford Mondeo/Peugeot 405 with 140 hp engine, also diesel. Regional Manager Julio just moved into 2000 sf house and bought a new BMW 520d (4-cylinder diesel) with cloth seats but a keyless entry, which he showed to every neighbor.

    Well, exact facts may differ slightly, but that's a general tone. When you understand those differences, the perspective changes dramatically.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,613
    Obviously, I had a typo in that statement. It should have been:

    I'm not an economics guy by any stretch of the imagination (nor am I a world traveler), mind you, but I'm pretty sure something just simply costing more there doesn't means it is more expensive in relation to the average joe.

    Just keep in mind, regardless of whether you find it cute or not, it doesn't mean what I said is incorrect. Everything is relative. Yes, if everything you say is true, then the cars apparently cost a larger portion of their income (although I have NO IDEA why). But since everything appears to be that way from what you are saying, then it is relatively on par with all living expenses, if you get my meaning.

    Its the same thing from state to state here. Gas, food, taxes, real estate all vary WIDELY across the country. I could live as a king in Texas for pauper wages in NJ.

    Hell, I'm middle management and I sure can't afford a new bimmer.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,673
    Regarding switching to a 4 cyl in a 40+ car, MB is doing it too and Audi had done it also, BMW just happens to be the last one to have a 4 cyl turbo in their line up. BTW, the new 5 series is selling very well, higher then BMW predictions.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,673
    Audi's A5 starts off at 38K and and top off at 50K with a 4 cyl turbo... MB will do the same with the E class soon enough. Not too sure why you and others think BMW is going backwards, but its typical American thinking, small is bad, bigger is better...
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,673
    Dino you are so right, when I was in Germany to pick up my 330i, I stopped off at a BMW dealer, they had 3 new cars on their lot the rest were used BMW's. Also not too sure how many 316i bmw would sell, since people are complaining now about how horrible it is to have a BMW with a 4 cyl.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,541
    I knew what you meant to say and that was cute to me (assuming that is something is true in US, it must be universal), but let's not dwell on that. I meant to be funny, but I probably wasn't. The fact stays that United States is a world with BY FAR cheapest cars and energy, not just in terms of currency prices, but in terms of actual income percentage. It is also true about other items, such as certain electronics (iphone/ipad costs in Europe about twice what it does here, even more in China).

    The reasons for that to be the case are plenty, from general output (i.e. US is still in fact either highest of almost highest GNP/capita), combined with scale (even small price break could bring marginally more sales, which can fuel more price breaks). However, the biggest difference lies in market fragmentation (combined Europe is about US size, but each country has its own very separate ways and they don't interact in terms of retail) and more redistributive economy, i.e. higher taxation on all levels, from capital, to income, to consumption (e.g. Euro sales tax, called VAT is from 17 to 25%, Euro income taxes are progressive reaching 50% and beyond on top bracket, Euro social security taxes paid by employers as surcharge go into 30-50% territory, all depends on the country). There is also large amount of social engineering going on there as well, where "undesirable behavior" (such as owning large-displacement engine vehicle) is directly punished by the government through additional taxes and scrutiny. They also excert a direct pressure on manufacturers to make or not make certain products as well, a concept introduced to US just only recently. All this combines into really punitive taxes and high prices of "unnecessary good", which cars, especially luxury ones are perceived as.

    It gets even worse in poorer countries, almost inversely proportional to their wealth. Explanation for that may be in volume: even if MB or BMW lowered the price, they would not sell more product, so prices remain high to pay for higher distribution cost of smaller markets and the circle closes.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,541
    To me it is not really the size of the engine, but its configuration. There are big advantages of straight six in terms of balance, smoothness, power delivery. Sure, you can make a screamer 4-cyl sewing machine producing same power as a larger I6, but the experience is not the same. Long term durability is also an open question. Europeans are already going through that now with their modern diesel engines - in quest of clean quite and high power turbo diesel, all advantages of old diesel (resiliency, low maintenance, million mile durability) are all but gone. Pour wrong fuel to your tank and you need new injectors. Put wrong oil and watch your car die... Sure, they are all nice, clean and quiet when new, but they last just about the same as gasoline engines, but still cost 30% more.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,613
    Euro sales tax, called VAT is from 17 to 25%, Euro income taxes are progressive reaching 50% and beyond on top bracket, Euro social security taxes paid by employers as surcharge go into 30-50% territory

    wow.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,541
    edited February 2012
    Yes, wow. Why do you think I'm here ;) Don't want to turn this into political fight, but every time I hear people idolizing Europe as some kind of working man heaven, I want to scream. Yes, there are some aspects of life there that may be called better than here, but overall our economy and society becoming like theirs is not a good thing in my book, period.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,914
    I'd have to agree. My ex lived 20+ miles outside of central London, in a 400 sf 1-bedroom, 1-bath attached unit with exactly ZERO closets and one window. Not even a coat or small linen closet. It sold for £214,000 ten years ago - that was around $300,000 US. I know other residents who lived further out who had homes/mortgages at a similar level. Everything else is also pretty expensive - a lot of income goes to just the basics in many households.

    re: Cars - a lot of positions over there come with company cars or a company-provided vehicle allowance. That may account for *some* of the higher-end cars, as the allowance has to be used for a vehicle and is use-it-or-lose-it.

    MODERATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 30,536
    Don't you guys watch, "House Hunters International" on HGTV???

    An apartment in Paris that is about the size of my master bath sells for $200,000..... :surprise:

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,613
    Well it is a city after all. Hell, Boston is more expensive than that these days from what I'm told.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 30,536
    edited February 2012
    Okay...

    Literally..... the size of my master bath... 140 square feet... ;)

    When you have 20 minutes to spare:

    Paris studio apartment video

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,673
    I watch it from time to time and yes I see how us American live, compared to our European counter parts. For the price of a very small apt in Paris, I bought my 2900Sq Ft house for, and there is only two if us living in it. IN some ways its a waste of space... But I wouldn't trade it for anything.

    Just like my BMW's better cars out there for less money, yes, but I wouldn't trade them for the world..
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    BMW has a whole marking campaign talking about how awd is availiable on 20-25 models - talk about history all you want this is the new BMW. Up here in the north east you'd be hard pressed finding a rwd (non m) BMW.

    On the grammer - try posting from an iPhone- it stinks- plus 6 grad education
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    So, I may be in the market for an ELLPS sooner than I expected.

    Not to stray too far off-topic, but does anyone have experience with negotiating with an insurance company regarding the appraised value of a car facing a "total loss?"

    I need advice... :sick:
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,900
    Oh no. Don't tell me someone was texting while driving, ran a red light, & hit the M3

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited February 2012
    No, not quite NYC - I wish it was that simple and anonymous. I let my brother drive it and he fish tailed it into a ditch.

    My insurance company has come up with a rather lower than expected 3rd party valuation report.

    I don't want to derail the thread with off-topic chatter, but if someone has experience in this area, I would really appreciate some advice offline.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 30,536
    Contact Mr_Shiftright

    He knows all about special interest auto appraisals.

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,673
    while driving?
Sign In or Register to comment.