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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,891
    Not with the E90. I'm sure this has changed with the F30 as I believe you can get a true sport pkg on the F10 5er.

    The Infiniti G37 only offers a true sport package in its RWD models as well.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    Sorry I don't speak BMW- the pre 2012 models didn't offer a true sports pack on awd ? The 2012s do?

    I know Infiniti awd is just big wheels, a nice grill, seats and paddle shifters- I think the biggest misstep is no manual shifter.
  • I am not going to get into the defending car mode. All I can say is I own a the AWD drive TL and for what its worth, it does a pretty good job in the handling department-have you driven the car?
    Further more the A-SPEC TL was the heavy FWD car that was pure cosmetic set-up-nothing to do with performance. I owned the 2003 TL Type S and deliberately stayed away from the 2004-2008 models, basically because of the FWD.
    In my opinion a C300,A4, 328 are just basically overpriced luxury.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,676
    I agree with you regarding the TL AWD, it handles very well. Unless somebody is a hardcore RWD fanatic I think it belongs in the battle-royal.

    I think some companies, like Infiniti, walk a tight light between luxury and value.

    My general feeling is that in a competitive market you can't get something for nothing. Infiniti may have a lower selling price (for a similarly equipped automobile) but IMO it has to come from somewhere...So you may lose in materials, engine refinement, etc.

    Infiniti is still competitive and the 'mix' of luxury/value still seems to persuade some people to put their hard earned $'s down.

    And it makes sense, why pay for something you don't want.

    I see this on my IS350 as well...switches that are shared with 'regular' Toyota's, internal components, etc. I had a G35 and Q45 (at one point) and it was littered with Nissan labels. I'm not certain I would have paid more if these components were all unique to Infiniti. I know my IS is a Toyota...

    There does seem to be a large overlap between luxury and non-luxury vehicles.

    The resent surge of Hyundai and KIA initially would give the impression that you're getting something for nothing, but their prices have crept up as well. I think (this surge) it's good for the market to bring the other prices down...In the past few years I haven't seen the "value" in Honda's and Toyota's

    A few years ago (for some reason) I went through the effort of comparing all the small details between the 3 series (think it was 328) and a fully loaded Camry (they were within a couple $ k's of each other). The Camry was lacking in many areas...don't recall the specifics...something like the ABS used, the chassis construction, suspension design, etc. The difference was substantial enough for me to conclude that the BMW was a "deal" :)

    I guess what I'm trying to convey in my ramblings is I don't really see true "luxury" divisions any more, not for the general car market anyway. A Toyota could be equipped and constructed up to "Cadillac" levels. I think this thread is limited in scope to "try" to compare vehicles of a much broader group...but for me personally I'd add a VW CC V6 AWD (and others) to this group while loosing some existing participants.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,452
    nyc...as always, it depends on the deal you can get on the 328. You should be able to do very well, given the new '12s are out. In addition, I'd much prefer the 6 cyl in the '11 over the 4 cyl in the '12.
  • wirelesswireless Posts: 47
    Oh goodness, Acura are overpriced Honda's that look equally as bad. Those little light-touch doors and controls aimed at women, the busy interior, the buzzy engine, incoherent interior and exterior design, over-boosted power steering, how they sell a one I haven't a clue, well at least they're reliable... I think.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,676
    heh...Love it :)

    No "shot-across-the-bow" here.

    "and controls aimed at women"...them's fighting words!

    I routinely get ridiculed at work for my IS 350's light blue "ol' Lady" color; heh, I like the color, shows the lines well :)

    Difficult to retort against my 'girly' color when the barrage comes from jacked-up of F250 diesel guy's :)
  • Why the insults at the car manufacturer? -pointless post.
    How is your Nissan Juke holding up?
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    The main issue that I have with the current generation TL, is while the AWD model does fit the handling and usability model, it utterly fails because it's clearly an entire size/class too large.

    3948 Lbs for the AWD model without a driver or typical accessories and things (floor mats, tank of fuel, maps and stuff in the glove box, etc...) is just simply too heavy. A typical person will be rolling down the road in one at a whopping 4200lbs.

    The previous generation S could manage to barely eek into this category with a ~3400lb weight. (though FWD did kind of keep it from being a true contender)

    And, yes, I did drive one last year. Absolutely underwhelming in turns and the steering was so over-boosted that it felt, quite honestly, a lot like a Buick. And not in a good way, either. The TL is a very very nice car, but it's not a "sport sedan" any more than the Lexus ES is.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited March 2012
    I don't think an ES can pull .93g on a skidpad...

    And FTR, I think all of these cars are oversized, overweight, borderline Buicks from a certain point of view.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    While I agree with Pleko that the (awd) TL is not a great sports sedan and more of a sports cruiser - as 95% of them leave the lot as automatic, and it's weight which I agree with you that the group is getting more bloated. it's no ES which is Buick Camry, the standard TL is also a Buick Es. Speaking of buicks I just watched a women win 70k worth of cash and prizes on wheel of fortune- amazing never saw anyone win that much.
  • "And, yes, I did drive one last year. Absolutely underwhelming in turns and the steering was so over-boosted that it felt, quite honestly, a lot like a Buick. And not in a good way, either. The TL is a very very nice car, but it's not a "sport sedan" any more than the Lexus ES is."

    If you drove the AWD version and made that statement this tells me you are absolutely clueless when it comes to analyzing a cars driving dynamics.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,452
    Still stand by my belief that the TL SH-AWD is the best "bang for the buck" lux/sports sedan on the market. You'll pay more for something else (i.e. a 3 series). But, the performance gains go up in much, much smaller increments for a lot more money to get there over a TL.

    (This coming from a former TL SH-AWD owner and a current 335i xDrive coupe owner).
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,673
    Each person has their likes and dislike in driving dynamics. I do not like AWD, give me a good RWD with a balance chassis, with a engine that loves to rev and I'[m happy. This is why I have BMW's. Of course people [non-permissible content removed] about price, but when it comes down to what I LIKE, I don't care what others have to say. So Bill not too sure your comment has merit "If you drove the AWD version and made that statement this tells me you are absolutely clueless when it comes to analyzing a cars driving dynamics."
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Acura TL AWD:
    3948 lbs
    38.4 ft turning radius
    109.3 wheelbase
    194" length
    74" wide

    Buick Lacrosse:
    3835 lbs
    38.8 ft turning radius
    111.7 wheelbase
    196.9" length
    73.1" wide

    Dangerously close to each other. Cars these days are absolutely massive compared to even a decade ago.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Infiniti G37x:
    3822 lbs
    36.1' turning radius
    112.2" wheelbase
    187.9" length
    69.8" wide

    Cadillac CTS Performance AWD:
    4118 lbs
    36.6' turning radius
    113.4" wheelbase
    191.3" length
    72.5" wide
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 15,427
    cars really have gotten overweight recently. Amazing how heavy even some relatively small sedans are. heck, I think a Golf weighs over 3K now.

    2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4i Limited Tech (mine), 2013 Acura RDX (wife's) and 2007 Volvo S40 (daughters college car)

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,891
    4000 is the new 3000

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,891
    My 2001 Prelude Type SH which was basically the same from 1997 - 2001. It weighs 3042 lbs. Weight was always one of the Prelude's "faults" during the era of 2600 lb Integra GSRs & 2700 lb AWD Turbo Eclipse GSXs.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 15,427
    heck, my 1991 mazda 626 5 door (a perfectly fine family sedan and plenty roomy and nice to drive on the highway) only weighed about 2,650#s. making it reasonably peppy with a whopping 110HP.

    2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4i Limited Tech (mine), 2013 Acura RDX (wife's) and 2007 Volvo S40 (daughters college car)

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited March 2012
    "4000 is the new 3000."

    And 300 is the new 200 (horsepower).
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,914
    They've clearly been taking queues from women's clothing sizing, except the other way around. Size 6 is the new size 10.

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  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    All kinds of possibilities with that opening Kirstie...but I know better.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    How am miles are on your prelude and is it a stick?
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,891
    My Prelude Type SH has 145,000 miles. Yes it's a stick. Type SH Preludes were only sold with a 5 speed manual transmission.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,891
    Stopped by a BMW dealer this evening on my way home from work to test drive a 2011 328xi. I dig it. The steering, suspension, handling... You all know the drill.

    If I can get some more cash for my TSX, then I'm going to go through with it. I'll keep you all posted!

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,452
    nyc....I think I hear a "Stories from the Sales Frontlines" coming up. Would love to hear the particulars on the "deal".

    I know you took good care of that Prelued. And, it has a really good following. But, I also know dealers would probably wholesale it, not because it's not worthwhile, but because of the 145K miles.

    You know the drill. Stick an ad in the local newspaper and see what someone will give you for it if the dealership is lowballing you. Discounts on the '11 328 should be pretty hefty right now.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 15,427
    He's looking to trade the 2010 Acura TSX, and keep the Prelude forever.

    What is it with guys here ditching their relatively new Acuras for BMWs?

    2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4i Limited Tech (mine), 2013 Acura RDX (wife's) and 2007 Volvo S40 (daughters college car)

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    edited March 2012
    It's the fact that the new 3 series is a bit too heavy and a bit too isolated from the driving experience. The consensus on the new transmission is that it's not nearly as good as the previous generation model, either. Essentially the 3 series has priced and sized itself out of the market and a lot of people wish they had bought the 1 series instead.

    Acura has the same problem as well. The current generation models are much larger than their predecessors and while they are nicer looking and feeling inside, they really don't drive any better. In fact, if anything, it's a bit worse for the same sort of reasons as the BMW. Unfortunately, Acura doesn't sell a smaller car than the TSX in the U.S.

    Note, this also applies to many other makers. The CTS, for instance, is a 5 series competitor and doesn't belong here either. The new ATS should, though. The G37 is honestly right at the upper end of what's acceptable, especially since you really don't need the AWD version. AWD is only a must for FWD cars in this class. But it's still quite heavy.

    Now, my favorite car in this class, is the RX-8. Yes, I know, the stupid rear doors aren't exactly styled and put on right, but it's really a sedan masquerading as a "coupe". 3000lbs almost exactly and it handles like a dream as you'd expect. It might not be the fastest or the best on a test track, but it dodges in and out of traffic like a go-kart by comparison to most other cars.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,673
    NYC is looking at a 2011 328ix, so your rant doesn't work. BTW, have you driven a 2012 3 series yet or is your rant purely speculation?

    The RX8 is a great car, however it LOVES to drink oil and fuel, and why does it love to drink fuel, because he have to rev the crap out of it to just drive the thing.
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