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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • nkeennkeen Posts: 316
    Their approach is very different to BMW's, where almost everything is a standalone or packaged option -- like Detroit used to do it 30 yrs ago.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    The following FWD cars have 18s from the factory: Impala, G6, Aura, Cobalt SS, Jetta, GTI, Lucerne, DTS, Sebring, etc. I see no reason Acura cant put larger wheels on the TL. What is counterproductive about having wheels large enough to feel the wheel wells and give the car a sportier look?

    Most automakers have dealer accessories, but we all know Honda is notorius for making relatively common options available solely from the dealership. The TL has most of what you need so most people can shy away from the accessories, but there is undoutedly an overpriced spoiler and set of larger rims waiting for you at the dealer. I dont see why this is necessary.

    TL-S is fast, but I dont think speed was ever the base models problem. In terms of acceleration the base model is good enough for me. I just think $4k should get your more than a bigger engine and quad pipes. No other car company makes hi performance models and doesnt add larger wheels. Acura needs to join 2007 and put 18s on the S at least. The Civic Si and TL-S shouldnt have the same wheel size.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    BMW is branded as evil for offering ette with the car. Lexus does it on their number 1 seller the RX, no big deal. Audi does it, no big deal. MB sells the C350 with 'MB tex' and it's no big deal. BMW sells without leather - that's a big deal.

    So really it's the Lexus IS, Acura TL and the G35 that come with leather standard.

    So 50% of the ELLPS market does not come with standard leather (BMW, Audi, MB) and the other 50% do (Acura, Lexus, Infiniti). The way everyone wrote about it, you'd swear all the ELLPS cars come with leather standard but BMW. As it turns out, that's not so.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,206
    You're absolutely right for me, but only for 51 of the 52 weeks of the year, sometimes 50.

    I live for that other week or two.

    I get to revisit or (rarely - I really have been (almost) everywhere) discover really fun places to drive -- curves, hills, no traffic -- you know the drill. I've made any number of 3-5K mile 9.3-day drives (Friday afternoon through the Sunday costs only five days of corporate vacation) all over western North America.

    This coming July I'm looking at a journey to Inuvik (if you need to ask, you don't care). There's lots of fun stuff between here & there, & even though I'm used to late/early sunshine (lived in Edmonton) in the summer, I've never been above the Arctic Circle. Looking forward to it, in a big way.

    These sorts of trips justify my owning whatever car I've got, and have since I was 20. Before that I owned motorcycles.

    The last time I went north my 510 was making noises, so I borrowed the family Voyager & drove to Ft. Simpson & back. The trip was fun -- the vehicle. . .not so much. The trip is the deal, in my world, but it's better in a nice car.

    Otherwise, I may as well own a Tercel (or whatever they call the equivalent this week). It sounds like some think I should.

    Sorry.
  • nkeennkeen Posts: 316
    In this part of the world at least, 17 is a better compromise than 18. Not sure what filling the wheel wells has to do with the price of bread, or, for that matter, whether a 17 with a taller profile tire fills them less than an 18 with a profile that makes the rims more vulnerable to the mess of potholes, crippled expansion joints, broken car debris and other decorative trash we call interstates around here.
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    "What is counterproductive about having wheels large enough to feel the wheel wells and give the car a sportier look? "

    Ahhh, now I see why you feel the way you do. I was thinking you actually thought the 18" would make it perform/handle better. Sure, for looks only, I agree.

    IMHO, the TL looks sporty enough without any accessories.

    "I just think $4k should get your more than a bigger engine and quad pipes."
    Well, the S does come with Navi standard (at least a 2k option),Brembo brakes, stiffer suspension, paddle shifters in the auto tranny and some other "cosmetic" differences.

    I personally would not characterize the S to be a "high performance model" like the M, AMG, V, S..any other letter I forgot?
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "I just think $4k should get your more than a bigger engine and quad pipes."

    It does.

    Performance upgrades - 30 more HP, thicker anti-roll bars, larger front rotors and Brembo calipers, high-performance summer tires, sport seats.

    Cockpit upgrades - Active Noise Control, paddle shifters (auto), red instrument lighting.

    Exterior - quad-exhaust, lip spoiler, ground effects bodywork.
  • 03accordman03accordman Posts: 671
    "I dont think BMW has exclusive rights to quality leather by any means. I think GM vehicles (esp Buicks, Saabs and Cadillacs) have very supple leather."

    Are you serious? Have you sat in a leather equipped 3 series?
  • 03accordman03accordman Posts: 671
    "Most automakers have dealer accessories, but we all know Honda is notorius for making relatively common options available solely from the dealership. "

    On the contrary, Honda is well known to limit its trim levels and offer most options standard. I don;t understand what you are referring to. Look at, for example, an Accord EXV6; what options are missing that are notoriously priced?
  • 03accordman03accordman Posts: 671
    "You guys fail to admit that most BMW 3 series buyers are buying it simply for that badge"

    You will never understand why a majority of 3 series buyers buy it. Could it be that the car is an extension of one's intentions? If you have driven it and don't feel any different; then its definitely not the car for you. The closest I can relate the driving experience of my 3er is to a fast motorbike. If this is something a person does not feel after driving the car, then it would not make sense buying it.
  • 03accordman03accordman Posts: 671
    "Also, most people buy the 3 not because its the best ELLPS out there but it's because they couldn't afford the 5."

    I test drove both the 5 as well as the 3, budget was a non issue; to me, the 5 does not hold a candle to the 3 as a drivers car, so I went with the 3. But that's just me.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    "BTW, I find the leather on most cars costing $30k or more to be pretty nice. I dont think BMW has exclusive rights to quality leather by any means. I think GM vehicles (esp Buicks, Saabs and Cadillacs) have very supple leather."

    Buicks and Cadillacs were exactly what I was thinking of with my BarcaLounger comment. The stitching details look like they were done by poor machines, blind immigrants or both. Can't speak for Saab, as I haven't been in one for quite awhile.

    Humor yourself - go look at the leather and stitching on the sport seats and door trim of a 911. Or even the leather Recaro seats in a $32k Honda S2000. That's the way it's supposed to look, IMO. And BMW's leatherette comes a heck of a lot closer to that than any "supple" leather that ever went through a GM factory. In fairness, I only rate my Acura TL as "good", certainly not excellent. But GM's supple (i.e. mushy) leather looks like it belongs on a retirement community sofa. And this isn't a cheap shot - I've been given enough Buicks and Caddys by Hertz and Avis over the years to have experienced GM leather quality - or rather lack thereof - first hand.

    Clearly, we have different standards when it comes to measuring quality. If you find GM acceptable, great.
  • hausshauss Posts: 169
    When you mention the A4's driving feel are you referring to the Quattro version? Because I see a lot of those on the road here in Atlanta and most of them are the FWD 2.0t version. I've driven that car and it does not handle as well as a TL in my opinion.
  • joe131joe131 Posts: 971
    I don't get it.
    Maybe not in your post, but in some past ones it seems you guys are lamenting the fact that the BMW 3 is too common, but then also you think it is the overall best of the ELLPS for one or more reasons.
    Seems to me that the two would naturally coincide. If they are so good, lots of people should be buying them.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Posts: 1,986
    Quattro always.

    IMO a FWD Audi is something akin to track shoes without spikes...
  • hausshauss Posts: 169
    I disagree with you 03accordman. My feeling is that the majority of 3 series buyers do not buy it for it's driving feel. I know several people that own them and I know for a fact that they got the car because they like the prestige and recognition of the brand; they like the the appearance of the car; and it's in their price range. And there's nothing wrong with that. Off the top of my head just one of my ten friends that owns one got it for the performance and he's got an M3 (the rest have 325i models). Also my term "buying a badge" is the phrase he uses all the time to describe those buyers I'm referring to.

    Now, I'll admit that my little informal survey is hardly gospel. It's not statistically sound. But neither is your assumption that they get the car for it's (supposedly) superior chassis and suspension. And you cannot suggest that because most of the people on this forum agree with you that makes your viewpoint correct. Going that route would bias the data toward a more specific population of 3 series buyer.

    And to joe131, I don't find the 3 series to be common nor the best of the ELLPS class. I think it's a good car. What I'll disagree with is everyone that thinks it's all that and a bag of chips. It's got a list of shortcomings just as long as every other car on here. If it were truly the "ultimate driving machine" the other auto makers would be struggling for any kind of market share in this segment. They are not. Last year BMW sold 88k 3 series sedans, Lexus sold 80k ES350s, Acura sold 70k TLs, Lexus sold 55K ISs... That's a lot of cars being bought by people not choosing BMW.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    because they like the prestige and recognition of the brand; they like the the appearance of the car; and it's in their price range.

    1. Where is there recognition or prestige associated with BMW?!
    2. Lots of people here seem willing to buy on looks.
    3. Many, many people buy in a price range - and if it's pricey than others, how does that reflect poorly on the buyer?

    And to joe131, I don't find the 3 series to be common nor
    It is. I see about 20 on the drive in daily and just my floor of the parking garage has at least 5 e90s.

    the best of the ELLPS class.

    By far.

    Lexus sold 80k ES350s, Acura sold 70k TLs, Lexus sold 55K ISs... That's a lot of cars being bought by people not choosing BMW.

    Or many people buying with an agenda for cheaper (TL), softer (ES), borderline performance without a sacrifice in luxury (IS). The 3 series doesn't appeal to many buyers for the simple fact it's more expensive than the competition, they find the seats hard, they find the ride hard. I hear that my seats are hard and I blink - mostly because they feel too soft to me. Rough ride to me = a civic with cut springs, my 330i ZSP is just soft, not rough. Obviously, many of us buy for different reasons.
  • hausshauss Posts: 169
    I felt like I was reading page 6 of the New York Post. You took my comments out of context all over the place.

    3. Many, many people buy in a price range - and if it's pricey than others, how does that reflect poorly on the buyer?

    I believe I said after that statement that "there's nothing wrong with that"...

    the best of the ELLPS class

    My comment was that is was not, IMO, the best of the ELLPS class.

    Or many people buying with an agenda

    Isn't that what every buyer does? My point still stands that more ELLPS are not BMWs than are. It doesn't have the majority of the market share in the segment thus it isn't without flaws to the ELLPS buyer.
  • nkeennkeen Posts: 316
    I liked the Connolly leather on older Jags, Astons, Rollers, Bristols etc. This stuff looked like it came from an animal -- creased and increasingly supple with age, like good shoes -- but I suppose that would never do in today's market. The stuff on the TL, or BMWs for that matter -- not sure what kind of animal produced that. Looks more like the automotive equivalent of particle board.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    I think the price has something to do with whether or not people have a problem with leather coming standard. At $30k this might be acceptable, but not at $35k and up. I think they all should have leather standard but as I said its not standard so they can ship 90% of the car with optional leather and make the car more expensive.
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