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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,467
    Kdshapiro - Thanks my man! I just love the car and cannot say enough good things about it. Haven't heard from you in a while & glad you are still here!

    BTW men - I turned 36 today!

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,963
    Gee, didn't know Chrylser was a luxury brand. Never see it mentioned in the rags as such. Since the Chrysler 200 is the "entry-level" Chrysler and can have the same engine as the 300, I guess one could make an argument that the 200 should be part of this discussion. Wait, isn't that the remake of the acclaimed Sebring? That will never do.

    It seems like anytime someone drives a car with leather, some power and decent driving attributes they think it's ELLPS. Use some discretion folks. The 8spd is offered in the Charger. Again, leather, decent handling, 8spd tranny and good power from a v6. Should it also be ELLPS?

    Personally, I think there is more to being a luxury brand than nice leather. Including driving experience, styling that holds up over time, amenities, cutting edge tech, customer service, warranty, dealer experience and overall quality of components. I don't think Chrysler is there yet....maybe a couple of pieces but not the whole pie.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,295
    happy birthday. Keep enjoying that early present.

    I was 36 once. A long time ago. A real long time.

    I have a birthday in a few weeks, but it is much more renowned than 36 (as a milestone!)

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,602
    I love Alfa's, I had a GTV-6 for a short period, the music the engine made was so Ferrari like however, like all Italian Cars, if they are not kept up as far as service they are a nightmare to keep running. However, I would have to assume that the modern day ALfa's are not of the old, much more derivable and much less a problem. I'm for once waiting to see what the new Dart will look like in person and drive.. Hoping that National will get them as rentals I would have to give it a try.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,602
    I am not the one who continues to write comments about how wonderful the G is over the 3 Series. In fact your G is very dated compared to the 3 series. Your comment about dated interior and Nav in the new MY 2012 shows you do not have first hand knowledge of the car.

    Go buy a new G37 then talk about how wonderful it is, stop reading the mag's and coming off as an expert.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    NYC - thx. Life takes over. Happy birthday to you. This particular discussion is probably the best on the interwebs. Now stay out of the cops radar. :)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    edited April 2012
    I really can't agree with your post. BMW makes the better sports sedan and has great tech. And while the g is certainly due for a refresh, it is a great car in its own right.

    The nav is very good, tech in the car is good. It's an acceleration monster and really hugs the road. The wood trim gives the interior a very classy look. Cup holders stink, but I love the electric telescoping steering wheel. Highway mileage is decent, trunk is roomy. I love that hids are standard. And I have all the goodies for a measly 45k. Bt integration is awesome, and the Bose is good. Non sport seats are comfortable.

    So while I love bmws, the g37 is not an also-ran and in almost every comparo, comes in second for good reason. I tested out the awd system during that freak October storm and I was impressed.

    As i started out this post, the g is a fine car in its own right.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,602
    Fact, I never talked about the Chrysler 200, all of my comments have been regarding the 300C.

    Fact, the only LX car NOT to have the 8 spd for MY 2012 is the V8 cars, whether they are Dodge or Chrysler, that will change for MY2013 when all LX cars will get the new 8 spd auto.

    Fact, Chrysler was the Luxury division, granted they suffered in the past, but I can state things have gotten better, and yes, they should be in the ELLPS. The feel of the leather, switches, steering, handling and the closing of the doors have a great feel to them, if you haven't driven one then it is hard to make comments about the cars.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,602
    Sweeny wrote, " Fun odd fsct- Jeep and the c300 share the same parent - please give us updates on when to expect the 8speed auto becomes available."

    This makes no sense, the Nissan Versa and Infiniti G37 are from the same parent too, so when we can expect the Versa to get a V6 option?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Upscale vs luxury. My local Chrysler dealership is not in the same league as my local lexus dealership.

    Do all manufacturers who put leather seats in their vehicles belong in this discussion?
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,149
    kd....if Chrysler slapped an Imperial badge on the 300 would that make it a worthy candidate for this discussion? Not disagreeing with you, only that, at the very least, I've heard Chrysler execs state that the 300 IS their luxury offering.

    flightnurse and nyc....I'm with you on the 0-60 thing. If that was the end all to beat all, then this discussion would only be about Mustang GTs/Boss/KC, Camaro SSs, Charger/Challenger RTs and 'Vettes.

    Then again, as we all know, nothing really competes with a G series, regardless of the parameter you use......well, except maybe a Jeep.
    ;)
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,111
    Graph and Flight- please put the BMW blinders away-- I think everyone here can agree the BMW is the best in class car-- but if you include Price its got some serious competition-- and since this is ELLPS you have(i think ive said this now 25times) to include price- 0-60 time and HP should be included as well as they are very important to the overall package-- as ive mentioned bmw has many advantages - but price is not one of them- 25% more for a car is a huge chunk to pay for a similar car-- is the premium worth it, thats the question- and in my eyes and others that are owners of LEXUS IS, G37, TL - its not. Again if you equip a 328xi maxed out its 50k-- a 335xi gets you over 55k- others top out at 42-45k-- huge diff and need to be factored in.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,602
    KD, then the TSX shouldn't be here either since its an accord made fancy. Or in JDM the G is far from a luxury car.

    Once again, have driven the new Chrysler 300c? I think I know the answer already. I dont think you have, so why are saying that the 300c shouldn't be here if you have no first hand knowledge of the current 300c?
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,295
    I thought the concept was more about the cars, but it is sounding now like the dealership is a big part of it? But to me, that is far down the list. I don't expect to spend any time there anyway (after buying it!). So if they have a clean, drive in, well organized service area, good to go! THough I guess a loaner car would be nice, but again, how much do you want to pay for that?

    As to the cars themselves, I would discard the 300C since it is a FS barge. And if you are including that (maybe even if not), why isn't the Hyundai Genesis included? Simply because you have to go to the Hyundai dealer to get one?

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    edited April 2012
    I think the TSX is the classic definition of an entry level sedan within a lineup of models. While it may not have the cache, I don't see why it's not an ELLPS. Acura markets it as a sporty vehicle.

    No, I haven't driven the 300, but what should be litmus test for including an ELLPS in this category. It has to be more than leather seats. :)
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,963
    edited April 2012
    1. I never said you mentioned the 200. I simply stated if you want to include the 300c, then LOGICALLY the 200 should also be included as that is the "entry-level" offering from your so called luxury car division....Chrysler.

    2. I realize the 8spd is only offered on the V6 now. That is why I mentioned that the 200 can have the same engine as the 300, the v6.

    Please read posts more carefully.

    If marketing jargon is the criteria for inclusion then many manufacturers would be discussed here. One doesn't have to drive every car made to know that certain manufacturers and certain cars shouldn't be included here. There are many ways to determine through magazines, auto shows, dealer showrooms, etc. and the test drive is just one factor(albeit a major factor). There are many aspects as to what makes a luxury car and carmaker and, yes, it does include the dealer experience. Go to your local Chysler/Dodge dealer and see how it compares to a BMW or Lexus dealer and honestly report which ones feel like a luxury carmaker and which one doesn't.

    However, everything I say is based on the premise that the cars discussed here are supposed to be from what is commonly as a luxury carmaker. If that is wrong and it just depends on any one members perception of what a luxury car is without regard to brand, size, price than I will stand corrected.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,111
    Good post- I especially agree that he should read the posts more carefully.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,467
    Just to elaborate on pricing a little bit. If BMW didn't have this crazy factory backed lease program + $2500 rebate + making the 1st 2 payments, I'm still driving the TSX. The BMW is expensive. My 328xi had an MSRP of just over $44,000. That also includes a whole heap of standard features and "no cost options" BMW put in the car because it was the end of the E90's run. For comparison, my Mom's (former) 2008 328xi had less equipment than my 2011 328xi yet had an MSRP of over $46,000.

    When my lease is up, I'm going to have to make a decision. I'm obviously going to drive an F30 (4 cyl 3 series), but I think with similar equipment to my 2011 will be priced out of my league. The IS is going to be all new. The G37 is going to be all new. MB might get some sense knocked into it and offer the C350 with 4matic.

    I might not like any of these and want to buy my 2011 back from BMW or buy a similar 2011 328xi CPO with 25,000 or 30,000 miles (instead of the 50K mine will have).

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,111
    Yeah man- I know and rooted for you to get a great deal on the search and you did. For the price you paid I think throws my cost agrument out the window- its a great deal on a well equipped car. Like you pointed out most are not going to get such a deal- I would bet the 2012 are going close to list because of the new body.
    Landscape should change a bit and it's going to be interesting to see what happens with this new Caddy as well- looks like a power player on paper.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,467
    While I don't think other cars mentioned here should be officially added to the list here, there is no shame in discussing them. We've got a pretty steady following of regulars here and everyone's opinion is weighted equally. I know if flightnurse says the 300C is a nice driving car, he's not just talking about the fact that it has leather seats.

    If when my lease is up, I can get into a G37 with 100 more horsepower for $100 a month less or $50 a month less on a lease, then I'd most certainly go for it. If MB offers up the serious "conquest cash" that they did last year for the C - Class and I can drive one for less than my current 328xi, I'll drive a Mercedes (C350 4matic).

    In 30 months, I might not exclusively shop this ELLPS class either. I might dig the X1 or a CPO X3 with the N55... Who knows.

    For now I LOVE MY BMW 328xi!

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,111
    edited April 2012
    I Agree that the 300c and the c300 should be mentioned, yes i agree with flight, even when he asks for my age but doesnt respond why he needs it,don't be shocked. I'm a firm believer that dealership experience means little certainly given the cars we talk about here - they should be low maintence and most are- sure some try to bait you with free maintence programs for free wipers and oil changes but most of these cars should not see the dealerships for more then a couple of oil changes for the first few years. I think the most important thing you can get from a dealer is a good deal on initial price. Flight has a point we should look further and this 300c could be a BMW competitor in the future- a value leader as he once said even thou it's classified as full size and cars to the right are midsize at best. I am not a firm believer that an 8 speed transmission means anything at all but the guy has his Performance views and I guess a strong 8 speed is one of them.
    I think his statement has more value then others talking about m3s or Porsches that are clearly out off the category all together.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Let's not forget that Edmunds is very topic oriented, am I'm not being the forum police here. Anybody is certainly free to go to the News And Views board and create the thread of their choice to discuss whatever is related to the auto world.

    Don't forget all of these cars have some competition on almost every level and some marquees, e.g. Hyundai produces the genesis and equus, which some may say are luxury cars, but the dealerships don't pass the litmus test of a luxury dealership. Neither do Chrysler dealerships. Especially if one uses Lexus as the benchmark.

    Maybe this particular thread has outlived it's usefulness due to the changed landscape of the auto world.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,149
    kd....outlived its usefulness? Not so certain about that. The names may have indeed changed. But, the market segment is still alive and vibrant (luxury sport sedans/coupes).

    nyc....BMW does indeed discount their cars pretty heavily....especially with lease subsidies. I think I got $7K+ off on mine (including a hefty $2,500 rebate). You got almost as much off with the addition of favorable money factors and residuals.

    This is not distressed merchandise. They are "best in class" vehicles.

    That blunts things as far as making that financial commitment.

    That said, if I was staring at a ~$50K '12 328i, with a 4 cyl, with little to no discount, I'd be moving down the road into something else, for certain.

    I've tried to warm up to Mercedes a few times, both C and E class. I can not do it. For the life of me, I can't see the appeal....especially for the price. They don't do one thing that's better than the competition.

    To add insult to injury, you can get a Chrysler 300C, which has a honkin' hemi, that rides and handles about the same as an E Class with a 6 cyl. And, it has better tech features. So, maybe the 300 does belong here.
  • wirelesswireless Posts: 47
    "I've tried to warm up to Mercedes a few times, both C and E class. I can not do it. For the life of me, I can't see the appeal....especially for the price. They don't do one thing that's better than the competition."

    I bought a '12 C350 in November. Drove other ELLPS's. The Benz was the clear winner. I'm a car enthusiast for many decades, read C&D, and know BMW's reputation. Was quite surprised how much I didn't like the BMW. Interior was bad, very bad, looks the same for the past 10 years. Driving was nothing special, the salesman encouraged us to drive very quickly around his route which included a traffic circle as well as interstate. Just didn't do it for us.

    The MB handled much better and rode better and was better in every regard. We would have bought an A4 well before a BMW. It's really personal preference. We got the C350 for $43k out the door with 18's, keyless go, no NAV. Most features are standard on the 350 such as upgraded sound system.

    I do like the way BMWs look. There are way too many on the road now - I see more of them than Accords. The interior and driving dynamics - not so much.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,467
    Hello wireless! Welcome to the BMW 3 Series Rules The Universe, I mean Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedan board. Congrats on your C350. I'm glad you are enjoying it. It is a beautiful car. It's also got a ton of standard features. So much so that I don't know why anybody would consider a "loaded up" C250 because it gets to the same sticker price very easily.

    Just curious as to where you live. In many of our necks of the woods here, we like to have our ELLPS fitted with some sort of AWD system. MB only offers the C300 w/ 4Matic AWD.

    Which 3 series did you drive? Did you drive the C250 & C350?

    Thanks for sharing about your C350.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325
    been seeing and earning a lot of black dots lately.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,220
    What does that mean? Is that a CR thing?

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,486
    Yes, full black dot is "significantly below average" in a given category (they have aroun 15) for a used car of a given year.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,111
    Lesson learned, pay heavy premium get the free maintence program for 4 years, enjoy the ultimate driving machine, but trade it back in before warrantee is up or it will be the ultimate repair bill.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,220
    So what do they show for an '08 335/135? :blush:

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

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