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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • 03accordman03accordman Posts: 671
    "The recent Automobile mag long term wrap up of the 330s said the sport suspension was annoyingly stiff to many drivers. They were not feeling the ride/sport compromise. I think the standard BMW suspension is stiff enough for most people while the sport package may be overkill"

    Personal preference; to me the non sport 3 was too soft. I would never get one without Sport pkg.

    People have differnent preferences, and their choices are catered to by our market; that why you see a stiff 3 series as well as a softer ES both do well in the market.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    you guys may personally compare based on MSRP. I already said I bought an 03 330i ZHP over a 10k cheaper 2003 G35. That was money well spent in my eyes. You can't put a price on subjective value. Snap oversteer and NVH made the 03 G35 6MT too pricey at any level when compared to the car I found which didn't exhibit those problems.

    You guys act like a dollar is a dollar. When you find something you really like, the money becomes secondary. It just so happens, I found a way - a way open to all buyers - to feed the desire at a low price point. There's no voodoo involved. Every buyer can do it.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    Yes I'm sure most 3 series buyers get theirs via ED. Comparably equipped the G35 is cheaper as is virtually every other car in this class. I dont know how much ED saves, but it must be a lot. Does BMW pay for you to travel to pick up your car? If not, I would think your travel costs might take away from the massive savings you enjoy with ED.
  • "...I found a way - a way open to all buyers - to feed the desire at a low price point. There's no voodoo involved. Ever buyer can do it."

    In theory every buyer can do it...in practice I don't have the time to take a LOOOONG flight to Germany to pick up a car. AND I don't have the flexibility to wait a month or two waiting for that car to make it back to the states. AND I personally wouldn't touch a BMW past the free maintenance period so I would be looking at a relatively short-term lease which would mean I'd have to fly to/from Germany every 2-3 years and not have a car for several months every 2-3 years. AND you are not factoring in the cost of a trip to Germany.

    ED is a great program if you already go to Europe or if you have the time to go specifically to pick up a car....and if you have extra cars in your garage or don't mind waiting 1-2 months to get your new car. Plus when I was researching ED I read several horror stories about people waiting much longer than 1-2 months for their car...there are no guarantees regarding how long it will take for your car to arrive.

    So in practice even though the program is available to every buyer, it isn't at all practical for every buyer.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "You can't put a price on subjective value. Snap oversteer and NVH made the 03 G35 6MT too pricey at any level when compared to the car I found which didn't exhibit those problems. "

    This could be why infiniti redesigned the car and made improvements. I would say the 330i is a superior car to the last gen G35 and it should be since they are in different generations. The current G35 was designed to compete the the current 3 and does a good job. Lower price plus 95% of the 335s performance plus better interior plus better reliability equals better car. Doesn't mean that BMW fans will like the car or stop making excuses for the 3 series, it just means the G is the better buy.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    In absolute terms you can get a 328 cheaper than a G35 as long as you take feature count into consideration. You can get a base 3 series cheaper than a loaded Camry XLE but I wouldt go around saying the 3 costs less than a camry. If you equip the cars as close to equally as possible the G will come out cheaper. I think thats a verifiable fact.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    The larger picture in my opinion, is that MSRP is useful for gauging where a car falls, but buying price is based on a number of different factors including negotating skills. Depending on lease, buy and incentives a 328 just might come out less expensive than a G35.

    So you could counter a 328 could be had at the same or lower price than a G35 but the G35 has more horsepower and that would be a valid point.
  • 03accordman03accordman Posts: 671
    "Doesn't mean that BMW fans will like the car or stop making excuses for the 3 series, it just means the G is the better buy."

    To you.

    Who's making execuses for the 3 Series?

    According to your theory, the Accord EX V6 or an Altima/Maxima V6 is a better buy than a G35 ot a TL, right? Then why buy a G or a TL at all?
  • joe131joe131 Posts: 971
    Car & Driver just did a comparison test of the 328i and the G35 in its April issue.
  • doctorb1doctorb1 Posts: 1
    For anyone who is interested, I found an abandoned road out in the country and put my foot to the floor. I thought that the car was going to top out at 140 mph because the tachometer showed 6500 rpm's at that speed. I was surprised when it then shifted into 5th gear and the speed continued to climb. I had to shut it down at 145 mph when I ran out of raodway, but I am convinced that it would have gone up to 160 mph with a longer road. The car was very smooth and easy to handle at 145 mph and the suspension was perfect. The G35S comes with "W" speed rated tires (168 mph) so I would not recommend trying these speeds unless you verify your tire ratings.

    I have also taken the car too fast around a corner (intentionally) and I was very impressed with the smooth slide and easy handling and traction recovery of the car. I am sure that it is not impossible to loose control of this car, but you would have to work very hard or have some unusual circumstances to loose control of this vehicle. It is a highly impressive engineering feet compared to the many other vehicles that I have driven to their limits.
  • joe131joe131 Posts: 971
    Car & Driver shows top speed of the G35 limited to 158 by a governor.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    This could be why infiniti redesigned the car and made improvements.

    Yeah they muted NVH, removed road feel, made the car heavier, ruined interior space and overall dumbed the car down. Luckily, BMW did the same with the e90s. So in effect the "improvements" made the cars worse but still equally far apart.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "According to your theory, the Accord EX V6 or an Altima/Maxima V6 is a better buy than a G35 ot a TL, right? Then why buy a G or a TL at all? "

    Valid point. You dont get much more in the entry luxury class than you do with a fully loaded midsize car these days. I was trying to limit my price comparisons to cars in this class. There are plenty of cars cheaper than the 3 series, but unless they are in this class I dont think its relevant.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    There are many here who look for the budget angle - what car provides the most bang for the buck. Like those 1980s Motor Trend articles about which low priced cars give you the most performance per dollar. In this case, it seems most want luxury and some performance for the dollar.

    Others see value in pleasure. They feel their pleasure in a car is worth X cost. They may value things others do not care about or they may discount elements some take as necessary.

    eBay is a good example of personal valuation. Take two products that fulfill the same goal - like cell phones. Put them up for auction. One day you may get some nut who pays almost MSRP for a brand new Samsung SCH-U740. The other phone is a brand new Motorola V325 and it ends up selling for $100 less. Is that what the two products are worth? Well to the buyers, the products are worth at least that much because the bidding process found their personal valuations.

    I hear about people paying 50k for a 335i with active steering, premium package, automatic, sun shade, laser cruise and navigation and feel shocked. My personal valuation of such a car is significantly lower than a 335i with just the sport package and manual. I would consider the previous car only if it were sharply discounted - at least 6-7k less than my price of a 6mt ZSP version.

    BMW may mark the car at 50k; I'd mark it at 28k expressly because of the items on the car. My personal valuation is infinitely lower than the corporation's requested value. Neither side is right or wrong; we have differing views and thus will not find ourselves conducting a transaction on that product.

    So when you say a G35 is the budget alternative, it could be to you. To someone who values other things - less perceptible differences - the G35 may represent a compromise that distorts that individual's personal valuation.
  • hausshauss Posts: 169
    Propeller?
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "Yeah they muted NVH, removed road feel, made the car heavier, ruined interior space and overall dumbed the car down. Luckily, BMW did the same with the e90s. So in effect the "improvements" made the cars worse but still equally far apart. "

    According to you, but road tests of the car dont back that up. Saying the 328/335 is slightly more connected than the G35 isnt the same as saying the G35 is a sloppy mess as you suggest. There is a difference between just a hair behind the best in class and being an Avalon. You are dealing in absolutes as in a car can only be a 3 series OR a piece of crap. No one (outside of this forum) has suggested the G35 isnt a great car with excellent handling, a nice engine and more than acceptable ride and steering characteristics. You have to be the only person I have heard infer the old G35 was better than the current one. I dont believe that view is widely held.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,251
    The question I have with a statement like this...

    You dont get much more in the entry luxury class than you do with a fully loaded midsize car these days.

    is that even though it is your opinion, I would ask you why would YOU would ever buy any of these ELLPS if that is what you think?

    I know why I did but I am curious if you would buy at the "high price" in this class. I know I could have gotten a loaded Avalon for cheaper....but I would sleep in it more than drive it.

    Regards,
    OW
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    The general theme here is that the G is an inferior car for less money and the sophisticated buyer isnt willing to "sacrifice" just to save a few grand. My question is this: what exactly is one sacrificing if they buy the "inferior" G35? Same would apply for the '08 CTS or C350. We can talk about subjective intangibles all day, but in the end you arent really giving up anything if you pass on the 3 series. The G35 has a better interior, slightly more room, lower price and likely superior reliability so I dont see any sacrifice. Sure, the G35 MAY come up short in a battle at the racetrack but I'm willing to bet most owners (even BMW owners) dont subject their car to that kind of environment. In short, I dont think G35 owners feel like they took the "cheap" way out and compromised just to pinch pennys.
  • kcleukkcleuk Posts: 39
    Hi,

    I live in IOWA and I am thinking of getting a Lexus IS250. But I can't decide on the RWD or AWD.

    I was thinking of getting the RWD with Navi cause the AWD with Navi is too expensive. If I get the AWD, then I would give up on Navi.

    However, I've heard about RWD being really bad in the winter. Can someone please advise. Thanks.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,251
    1487, I test drove the 2005 G35 coupe. Fast and nice handling but cheaper feel and a lot of wind noise past 70 MPH. Interior was not up to par for this class but was improved on in '07.

    I did not like the sedan looks but the new one is quite appealing. Look forward to the new TL as you have stated and I might take a look at the CTS for S&G's.

    I refuse to repeat vs. 3 series...you know the drill.

    Regards,
    OW
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