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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • allargonallargon Posts: 75
    It was a Bimmer salesguy that told me that. I kind of took it with a grain of salt for obvious reasons. He was right about the A4's back seat being small. Actually, the front seat of the A4 is the only car I've ever sat in that made me feel fat! I'm glad that the A4 isn't a glorified Jetta. I will definitely withdraw the inference I made.

    The Germans automakers really don't believe in synergies, do they? Mercedes doesn't want to share too much with Chrysler, and BMW doesn't appear to care about lacking a mid-sized mass market sedan. I guess Audi and Lambo are the only ones that share.

    The e46's backseat isn't that bad. However, I won't call it spacious for anyone above 5'10". However the backseat headroom in the e90 door is just painful. (I bumped my head entering and exiting twice while sober with my buddy driving. I won't even mention the times after we started drinking simply because I can't remember them! :blush: ) Your 6'3" friend can sit in the back of an e90 without complaining? Is he like a contortionist or something? I couldn't imagine being 6'3" and being comfortable in the back of a CTS or TL (best in this class).

    No road trips? Blueguy, you are definitely Californian! I love you for that. You remind me of all my friends in the Bay Area that thought I was nuts whenever I drove from Mountain View to LA.

    This was pre-9/11. They all said, "There are planes for that." LOL. Seriously, aren't we supposed to be enthusiasts here who love to drive? I remember taking my *cough* sport sedan (1994 Pontiac Grand Am SE) down the 5 to LA. Highway cruising is definitely a different driving experience than going on the track or the twisties, but I wouldn't say it's not fun.

    Blueguy, wouldn't you want to run your e46 through West Texas hitting the electronic limiter just for fun?
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,663
    When looking at BMW's site, the highest discount for the 3 series is $3435 for the 335i Convertible.

    Did you negotiate down from the ED savings? Or did you do something else?

    I assumed you would just have to take the car at MSRP - ED discount.
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    ED is worth it imo because you get a pretty good discount, get to pick up your car, tool around Europe if you like and go on the "suggested" tours and make a vacation out of it. It's especially sweet if you have enough miles saved up so your trip can be free.

    On the other hand, if you don't have miles & don't have time off from work to get a vacation, then the $$ spent on the trip (however short lived it may be) narrows the gap you actually save by doing the ED program.

    From my reading of the ED program on BMW's site, it seems like a pretty cool program i.e. if I ever to decide to get into a BMW.

    Just my .02. Correct me if I'm wrong.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    When looking at BMW's site, the highest discount for the 3 series is $3435 for the 335i Convertible.

    Do you normally start negotiating to buy a car based on the MSRP or invoice? same with ED. There's ED pricing and there's ED invoice. you start at ED invoice pricing and work up. People who buy based on ED MSRP are the same rubes who buy cars at MSRP.

    I assumed you would just have to take the car at MSRP - ED discount.

    Nope. Start at the lowest price they pay and tack on a profit for them - most often 1k.

    If I'm not mistaken, base ED invoice is $34,950 for the e92 (base MSRP is $40,800). Options are invoice priced too so every option creates a wider and wider gulf.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    April of 06 I drove from Munich to Nice, France in my e90. Took the scenic route through the alps - avoiding toll roads.

    I drove back from Avignon, France to Munich in under 6 hours about 11 days later.

    I've taken road trips many times; but since college those have pretty much been confined to me alone or me with a female companion. Not a car full of people. There's nothing fun or pleasant about having other people along for a ride unless that other person is a significant other. Two's company, three is just shoot-me-in-the-head now.

    I love a quick jaunt from San Diego to SF (6-6.5 or so hours) or SD to Vegas (4 hours tops). Hell we jammed up to LA last Tuesday for a 20 minute transaction.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "I assumed you would just have to take the car at MSRP - ED discount."

    Egad, perish the thought. Why "give" the dealer all that money? I don't mean that you should make them starve, however, I think $1,000 to $1,200 is more than enough profit for filling out a little paperwork. I mean, they are selling you a car that they wouldn't be able to sell were it not for the fact that you are willing to go to Europe to get it.

    The "proper" way (IMHO) to buy (or lease) an ED car is to find out what the ED invoice is on the car, add the shipping charges, the invoice of any options you might want and say $1,000 for dealer profit. Then you make your local dealership an offer. Some dealers will take the deal, some won't. The dealership where I leased my first BMW from didn't. I went fifteen miles down the road (literally, the same road even) and made the same offer. Done deal in under an hour. I picked the car up seven weeks later.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • oldcemoldcem Posts: 309
    I'll tell you one more time. JD Powers ranked the X second to Lexus. One of the other posters even pointed this out. I'm assuming that they polled a representative sample of the 400k owners out there. If you have a big problem with their survey results - carp at them. I will take issue with your GM statement. When I left the corporation, I don't think they tested anything twice - look at some of the crap they built and relied on their marketing muscle to sell. Anyway, the X is supposed to be in production until 2010, if you can believe management's statements to the press. By that time I'll be out test driving all the competition for my wallet again. Nice thing about my employer is we get employee pricing on virtually all car makes. Get back to me in 2010 and you can rant about what I decide to buy next.

    Regards:
    OldCEM
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    ...to those that might have thought the BMW ED price (MSRP) was non-negotiable, that is the case for Mercedes and Volvo. Those dealers make a fixed fee for handling an ED order that is significantly less than the markup a BMW dealer makes on an ED MSRP sale.

    For a long time there was a secret pact amoung BMW dealers in my area not to discount ED prices. Then one dealer left the cartel in about 2000/2001 and the secret was out (and discounts were in).
  • hausshauss Posts: 169
    Is that above or below invoice usually?
  • oldcemoldcem Posts: 309
    Obviously I own an X-Type, and, I take the surveys and mag articles with a grain of salt. In my opinion, the truth is:
    1. The 2002 X-Type had a bunch of niggling problems, and, one major problem - the trannys in a bunch of them failed. Ford rushed the car to market before it was fully sorted out, and, pissed off a bunch of first time buyers.
    2. By the 2003 model year, Ford had recalled and replaced all the bad trannys, and, addressed some of the other niggling problems. However, by then, Ford had really sullied the car's reputation.
    3. The following model years continued to get better, Ford continued to improve the vehicle mechanically. However, they missed the boat by not introducing a larger engined "R" model to compete head to head with BMW, Infiniti, Etc. This would have reignited interest in the line. The car continued to move up in various quality surveys, but, few were paying attention. In addition, Jag's advertising department was and remains absolutely impotent.
    5. Today, the car is vastly improved over what it was in 2002. Jag, too late in my opinion, has reduced prices and added features that make the car a relative bargain when compared to comparably equipped competitors. It still lacks a "flagship" model, and, its too late to introduce one now. At its current price point, its hard to beat, but, few consider it. Enthusiasts sneer, because 5 speed manual sport models are no longer available in the US.

    Regards:
    OldCEM
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Is that above or below invoice usually?

    ~5500 below MSRP. Remember you also don't have to pay MACO fees (usually around $400) and the training fee ($180) with an ED. That alone essentially pays for the airfare for one person. The Lufthansa 2-for-1 deal usually runs $1k.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Even with a manual the car is little more than a redone Mondeo - an old Mondeo chassis at that.
  • jtlajtla Posts: 375
    Check out this forum if you haven't already done so. There is so much information that you will learn the ins and outs of ED in no time.

    BMW European Delivery
  • "I'll tell you one more time. JD Powers ranked the X second to Lexus. One of the other posters even pointed this out. I'm assuming that they polled a representative sample of the 400k owners out there. If you have a big problem with their survey results - carp at them. I will take issue with your GM statement. When I left the corporation, I don't think they tested anything twice - look at some of the crap they built and relied on their marketing muscle to sell..."

    I'll try telling you one more time, the JD Powers stuff is NOT a reliability ranking. It is INITIAL QUALITY, (whatever that means). To me reliability implies more than just how the car will do for 90 days. I'll drop it, I do understand why you said "second only to Lexus", I just think it has nothing to do with reliability and (as the other poster pointed out) JD Powers also gave the X Type a rating of 2/5 stars so they aren't that certain of the X Type's INITIAL QUALITY either.

    Sorry for coming off as ranting, your reliability statement just struck a nerve with me. As far as your car choice in 2010...there should be several good/fun choices, enjoy!

    I completely agree with your GM assessment. Believe it or not, I was thinking I might strike a nerve if I said something badmouthing GM so I tried to be diplomatic. I should have known that a former GM employee would know the "quality" of GM products :P
  • hausshauss Posts: 169
    What is MACO? And does BMW typically charge a training fee for cars purchased in the USA? Boy, these car companies really stick it to you with all these BS fees. It's sinful.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    I am not alone in believing that features and performance per dollar is a measure of value. ALl you have to do is read any car mag or online site comparison to see this is the ONLY real way to compare vehicles. If you use subjective criteria to determine which features are valid and which are silly you cannot compare cars objectively. Generally speaking, cars with more stuff for your money are considered better values. This isnt something I have made up by any means. I never said that every car buyer makes a purchase based on value, but value exists nonetheless. No one can argue that a 911 is a better value than the Vette but some people feel the 911 is worth the premium even though they know its not better on value alone.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "Midsize ruins it for me. ELLPS were compact sedans, not behemoth midsizers. Not sure what's entry level or performance oriented about driving a massive vehicle. "

    The difference in weight and size is minimal in most cases. You are acting like we are comparing a 3 series to a Lucerne. Most midsizers in this class are about 190 inches long and weigh about 3600lbs. The compacts are about 10 inches shorter and weigh 3400lbs or more. The compact A4 is heavier than some midsize luxury cars so you cannot always associate length with curb weight. I cannot believe that a well tuned midsize car is so huge that it would be noticable on the open road. In tight urban situations MAYBE a midsize car would seem slightly awkward but even that is a stretch.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Posts: 1,986
    there was anything objective about car selection?

    Silliest thing I've ever heard. The whole process is nothing but subjective

    Worst offenders are the resale righteous, IMO. Non-emotional? Bah. They want to spend as little as the market will allow and hold on to as much as they possibly can when it's time to say bye-bye. That's an emotion. It's called greed...
    ;)
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Posts: 1,986
    Not so, in my experience.

    My final three contestants in '03 were the 325iT, 540iT and the IS300 wagon. The '03 540it was not only a work of art, but a delight to the senses in most respects. But the difference in driving enjoyment was pretty substantial compared to the other two. Both of the smaller cars asked for action; craved curves. The larger entry was absolutely competent and capable, but by no means as provocative, even in sport trim. It was bigger and heavier and more refined, and felt it.

    Fun factor. In my book, that's both the P and at least half the L in ELLPS. IMO, the current crop have become so overly spacious, they are losing their fun factor, and are being replaced by the new class coming up.
  • ontopontop Posts: 279
    the current crop have become so overly spacious, they are losing their fun factor, and are being replaced by the new class coming up.

    Then why are you here ?
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