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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,662
    Flightnurse - That's awesome!

    Powered By Honda2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,261
    mark.....you'll find that your TL won't require much in the way of maintenance at all. I still have a soft spot for the one I had. They really are very good cars. What people lament is that they aren't the "outstanding" cars that their Legend predecessor was. That doesn't change the fact that TL's can stand in their own spotlight.

    Keep us posted on your ongoing experiences.

    flightnurse....the diesels I've driven have varied from very nice (the Jag), to painful (an old Benz). Still, I'd have a hard time making a case for one in this country....unless, as is true in the U.K., diesel prices = gasoline prices.

    It seems the U.S. is going with plug-in hybrids or VOLT type vehicles rather than diesels. I haven't heard any hydrogen updates in quite some time. I don't even know if any of the major manufacturers are still developing them.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,642
    Mark I fully understand why you go back to the same dealer for service, this is what I have done with my 05 330 and the 328i. Building the relationship with a dealer makes the whole dealership experience worth while, like you when I take my cars in for service, I normally get the loaner I want.

    Want to talk expensive for service, Nissan CVT transmission fluid change, my partner has a Nissan Rouge and at 45K miles service the CVT fliud needs to be changed, $450..... That is just for the fluid, and not the other service items. His 45K mile service was over $500... Like you, I am spoiled on BMW''s free service.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,643
    edited May 2012
    You're entitled to your opinion but Audis and BMWs I've owned have barely been "broken in" at 60K miles and I've never bought a brand-new one.

    A well-cared for example can easily break six digits with no major problems.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,642
    Graphic when you talk "old" diesel my father bought a 79 Peugeot wagon new and let me tell you, my grandmother could walk faster then that car could go. I had a 86 MB 300SDL (ok I lied I had 5 Vehicles that had autos) and was impressed with the power of that car, it was quieter then the Peugeot but not as quiet as the VW.

    Now I can only speak for what I have seen, in Phoenix the price of Diesel is less then Premium that we German car owners but in our cars. Here on Island Island the price of Diesel is roughly 30 cent more then diesel. So getting a diesel wouldn't make sense.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,662
    The Shell station I fill up at mostly right off I95 in Stamford, CT had 93 octane & Diesel at the exact same price.

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  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,642
    NYC is that is the case then a diesel would be a better choice...
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,088
    I couldn't even begin to answer your question. Historically, Volvo's live very long lives -- and are expensive to maintain and repair like their German cousin's.

    Today, I would EXPECT, any car (virtually any) to make it to 150,000 miles with normal maintenance and a few repairs.

    Now then, the issue is what is the definition of normal maintenance?

    My wife's last BMW (a 2008) could only have an oil change (that was free) when the car said it needed it -- once this was at 19,000 miles. Since the car was leased, we changed the oil and did the other things when the book called for it. To me BMW's service recommendations aren't "normal," since the miles between service intervals seems impossibly long.

    Audis want oil changes every 10K miles -- and there is no computer inside that is determining when the maintenance should really be performed. I would think that would make a used, late model, Audi perhaps less prone to the wear that a BMW might have with its very very long service intervals.

    I repeat, I have no clue how soon it will be -- in miles -- before you will notice your Volvo isn't "new" anymore.

    I turned in my 2009 A4 2.0 with just under 55,000 miles on it -- it needed new tires (what would have been its third set) and the sport suspension seemed to be a bit "worn" feeling. Also it used a quart of oil every 2,000 miles, which seemed excessive, although the dealer told me there was a TSB on it that essentially cured that issue.

    Of our 29 German cars, only my 60,000 miles young 2005 A6 3.2 still felt "young-ish" after 30,000 miles.

    The difference in the German cars is they drive like no other -- so what you get are cars that "die young and leave a good looking [driving] corpse."

    One more time, for the same money, I'd still take the German car even though I believe it will be breathtakingly expensive to keep young.

    :surprise:
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,642
    Mark I like reading your post, however, I'm not getting this "young feeling" you talk about. My 05 330ci feels better today with 47K miles on it then it did when I picked it up in Germany in 05. When I slide into the 330 the feeling I is like visiting an old friend, everything feels right. I haven't gotten that with my 11 yet, since I have less then 4K miles on it. I do know that the German cars get better with age and miles. Now my 330 I have gone through 5 set of tires, and yes, I have taken it on a couple of track days, but it is the price of driving my BMW to 8/10 when I can.

    The biggest difference between the Japaneses and German cars is personality the Japaneses cars lack personality. They are great appliances..
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Posts: 198
    The guy owned 29, I think its fair enough to value his opiion.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,642
    NO one is arguing that, but for he most part, the German cars age better then others, that is all I'm saying. I tend to keep my cars longer then Mark, and drive them harder, my 05 BMW has no rattles at all, and having about 4K hard track miles on them I'm impressed with that.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,643
    The difference in the German cars is they drive like no other -- so what you get are cars that "die young and leave a good looking [driving] corpse."

    Tell that to me 12 y/o 528iA with 140K, or my 11 y/o 330CIwith 80K, both cars get compliments all the time and drive like new.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • jwilliams2jwilliams2 Posts: 858
    The difference in the German cars is they drive like no other -- so what you get are cars that "die young and leave a good looking [driving] corpse."

    My experience is different....I've always gotten great service and longevity from German cars. Starting with a '55 VW that I bought some 50 years ago. I've also had an Audi, some BMWs, and several Mercedes.

    I always keep my cars a long time, generally 10-15 years and always go over 100k. My '86 MB 300E went 245k, and I sold it maybe 10 years ago to someone who still drives it. My current MB is 15 years old, and has 136k on it. It is absolutely the best car I've owned, and looks as good and is as tight today as it was when new. None of my cars had major problems or cost more than what I consider reasonable to maintain.

    Just something about driving these cars that makes them stand out. I can't imagine driving an "appliance" car, as I would probably be bored to death.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Posts: 1,593
    I turned in my 2009 A4 2.0 with just under 55,000 miles on it --................... Also it used a quart of oil every 2,000 miles, which seemed excessive, although the dealer told me there was a TSB on it that essentially cured that issue.

    Nupe....my 2011 A4 goes through a quart of oil 1500-2000 mi. apart, changed at Audi's expense (one of the times I'm happy it's leased).
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,161
    edited May 2012
    Japanese cars lake personality- Someone in an civic blow you away at some stop light at some point?

    Another small dink at the Japanese - I'm sure your BMW with 47k miles is great and rock solid-But please spare us with the German cars age better - ask a mechanic what ages better.

    I am Glad you drive a manual - even thou your comments at times make zero sense ( see November comments on leader ads , and comments saying Infiniti g37 will be new for 2013) save the manuals.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,642
    I have read many peoples post regarding the oil usage of the 2.0 turbo 4, I also read there is a TSB on it also.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,505
    Well, blowing somebody at lights is not my concern, but if wanted to my previous Subarus would do just fine. I also would rather take a car without personality than with a bad one.

    The aging argument on German cars depends on what we are talking about. The chassis, main mechanicals, as long as maintained and not abused are probably fine for long. However, I would not be so sure about electrical system, motors, switches, etc. I think at some point Germans could not resist replacing $20/50000 hrs with one for $5/8000 hrs (just example, not real numbers) on false calculation of short-term ownership by first owner and they are slowly working back that lapse of judgement.

    There is also their high maintenance-high complexity culture that has been present for decades (their war machines were like that, too, e.g. Panther tank required fully equipped shop to replace transmission and it had to be taken apart - allied/Russian tanks could have field tranny replacements; even its staggered wheel pattern made it more difficult to field replace the tracks on the field).

    Every design has it objectives and constraints. At some point, getting closer to objectives (more performance in a car, better performing armored battle vehicle) comes at price of maintenance, complexity, which in turn can adversely affect the primary objectives in long term. In simple words, while working the machine has no equal, but to make it work can be cost prohibitive and even small setback has a potential becoming a major problem.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,505
    As I mentioned, in engineering there is a point of diminishing returns, where gains in primary objectives are being offset by increasing costs, both direct and indirect and unintended effects.

    I would say the main difference between Japanese and German cars is Germans are willing to test that limit going beyond it and are able then sell the product to willing people, like me. Japanese are asking different question, basically at what point it is good enough and not affecting other paralled objectives. That may be defined as lacking soul, but I don't think that is fair. It is matter of different objectives.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,662
    Mileage update: Last Fill up = 19.8 mpg
    Dino - you are right, there are quite a few evenings that I sit in heavy traffic

    Saw a BP station here in The Bronx where Super was 4.25/gal & Diesel was $4.49/gal

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  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,261
    Flight....in Europe, I can see the appeal of diesel cars. Here, where the vast majority of the time, diesel fuel is normally sold at a significant premium over gasoline, I can't see it catching on with passenger cars.

    That said, I keep meticulous records on my 3. I have every fill-up recorded. I'm averaging about 22 MPG, overall. Lowest I got was 19 MPG. Highest was 29 MPG. Lowest price for gas I paid over the last year was $3.19/gal, highest was $4.01/gal. That's almost a 30% swing....with no supply disruption, with worldwide demand either flat, or declining. Tell me that traders aren't manipulating prices.

    Japan vs German.....well, I think my former TL was built as well as anything I ever owned from Germany (essentially, 3 BMWs). That said, the CTS coupe I test drove was as solid as anything I've ever driven.

    I had heard that the Audis were oil hogs, from more than one person. But, sounds like they may have a "fix" in the works for that.

    My 2nd choice over my 335i coupe was either an S4 or an A5. At least locally, none of the ones they had in stock appealed to me. The two local dealers had all of 2 S4s in stock, and acted like they were made of platinum, or convertible A5s (again, I wanted a coupe).

    So, neither got into my check book.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,642
    Sweeny I'm not the one looking for a BMW 335iX w/ Sport package and Manual that would be you, if the mighty G is all that and more why would you give up a wonderful car with only 30K miles on it?

    BTW, I do not race on the street, I leave that to the track. My opinion is that Japaneses 4 dr cars have no personality when driven hard. This includes the might Infiniti G and M, Lexus IS, and the new GS. For me they feel like an appliance. I'm not saying I am correct, but this is my opinion.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,642
    Graphic for about 4 yrs I kept track of my mileage and how many gallons I used, but that stopped. I do however, have all my receipts for everything ever done to the car, tires, brakes, Suspension upgrades, Exhaust, black box re-flash, etc... I even have the original German plate's from when I pick it up.

    The Audi A5, excellent car, if I was going to get a Audi it would be A5 or the A7.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,161
    Now your talking- thanks just wanted a little clarity on your statement- we now understand why they have no personality - fair comment.

    For me I have a couple of reasons why I would love a 335 x drive or an Audi s4. 1) they would have a warrantee- my car is no longer under the Infiniti umbrella. Sure it's only been driven by me, is in great shape but those tiny little gremlins in the dash could strike any day.
    2) stick shift, save the manuals - I for one think the modern manuals are better then automatics,why? Well they make you become more engaged with the car and more aware of the other drivers- you are constantly monitoring speed- making sure you are in the right gear to pass- or to slow. I think it's a better way to drive period. I know 95% drive autos- but to me they are not driving - they are being driven. You can talk about dct, automanual, cvts- sorry they don't do it for me.

    Passat Tdi article that flight mentioned about a couple that got 80mpg is a good read- best part about it? It was done with a manual transmission
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,088
    There are plenty of resources -- both subjective and objective -- that discuss the German cars personalities or that decry the Japanese for making appliances.

    All the "did too" "did not" that we may throw out here can also be additional data points -- there are so many of us we're not just relying on anecdotes, that is.

    Virtually all cars have improved in reliability and durability -- but for whatever reason the Japanese cars (regardless of where they really come from) certainly seem to win the durability sweepstakes while the German cars typically win the fun to drive contest but pretty regularly are written about as being less durable.

    My rattle free TL or my wife's rattle prone BMW certainly can't be assumed to represent all Acuras or BMWs and certainly shouldn't be assumed to represent ANYTHING other than themselves.

    The surveys that are availble, however, regularly and frequently conclude that a Japanese car family (fill in the blank) will often far outlive a "similar" German car family (also fill in the blank) insofar as durability is concerned. And of course there is the matter of the expense of keeping any car beyond a certain point.

    One of the folks I work with has a 13 year old Lexus and a 10 year old BMW -- both with well over 100K miles on the odometer. Both cars are paid for -- yet the BMW is often being driven in so that it could get the latest $1,100 repair or replacement part -- NEVER has the Lexus required such an outlay, according to my buddy.

    On the other hand, another co-worker's BMW required new rotors and pads at 50,100 miles and his service cost almost the day out of warranty was over $1,800.

    Now I wouldn't say the BMW was non durable due to the service costs the day the warranty died -- it just seems odd that would happen so young. The Japanese cars, have earned a reputation for long long lives -- we, here, are not the cause of such reputations, but perhaps there is something to it.

    The European cars -- Germans in particular -- do not enjoy such reputations, no matter what we argue here. :surprise:
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Posts: 198
    Proof is in the Pudding- look around next time on the Highway and take a survey. Last time I did, Japan was winning by a mile.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    Around here, central TX - suburbs, I notice a huge amount of trucks and large SUV's; with American vehicles representing the majority.

    I always take notice of what types of vehicles are around me and usually I'm surrounded by behemoths.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,662
    Guys are BMWCCA members, but if you are not & like BMWs, it's a great way to save some money. BMWFS made 2 ($500) of my 1st 2 $572 lease payments. Because I'm a BMWCCA member, I filled out a form & got an additional $500 rebate from BMW of North America. When we leased my wife's X3 back in 2007, I also got a $500 rebate. Well worth the $48/ year the membership costs. You also get a fantastic magazine, ROUNDEL every month.

    Powered By Honda2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,662
    My wife got a flat on Thursday in her Pilot. I dropped the Pilot off at the tire shop Thursday night, which means she gets my 328xi for the day on Friday, & I've got to drive the Prelude to work (cue the violins, we should all have such problems).

    Jumping back into the BMW this AM, I immediately noticed how much it weighs compared to my (3042 lb) Prelude.

    Dynamically, like I've said my 3 blows my former TSX out of the water. My TSX's stereo gets major points as compared to the base stereo in my 328xi.

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