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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 28,572
    Interesting..

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    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited August 2012
    Auto start-stop was a little weird to me when I first got the Malibu Hybrid. Now I rarely notice it.

    It may seem like an annoyance, but in real-life, it's a non-issue.
  • jeffm5jeffm5 Posts: 109
    We would have loved another Avalon and were looking forward to the 2013. Problem is the the front grill design, which we think is ugly. (No offense to those who find it sharp. These things are very subjective.)

    BTW, the LaCrosse is an impressive car, but those wide A pillars were a deal breaker.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,809
    The tests are what they are and they don't change substantially from year to year.

    Actually this this is a modification to an existing test. Years ago the IIHS decided that the head on test done by the government wasn't real world enough so they came out and tested offset crashes. The performance of most cars was poor so it forced automakers to design to get a good rating on this test.

    Now the IIHS has moved the target and changed the offset test from moderate overlap to small overlap. The moving target is the way the insurance industry gets the automakers to keep making vehicles safer in order to reduce the payouts they have to make.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,229
    edited August 2012
    Hey Jeff...welcome. Nice write up on your new Volvo. Congratulations.

    Ray....thanks for the update. The couple of times I drove the new BMWs with the start/stop feature, left a very negative impression. Glad to see BMW recognizes they have a lot of work to do on the "feature" and has offered a way to permanently defeat it.

    Frankly, I'm surprised it made it past engineering at BMW given how poorly the feature operates (as in, it shudders the entire car).
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    I'd like to see a cost/benefit analysis; how long will it take to pay for itself.

    I admit I haven't follow this technology, but I can't image it saving a huge amount of fuel. Plus I'm from the old school where it's ingrained that starting an engine equates to damage done (excessive wear).
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,620
    I admit I haven't follow this technology, but I can't image it saving a huge amount of fuel.

    It would think depends on your driving environment. I could see start/stop saving 15-20% on fuel in traffic prone urban/suburban areas but out in the boonies perhaps less than 10%.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 28,572
    I think if you have a hybrid that already runs occasionally with the gas engine off... .it's no big deal... And, either way, you could probably get used to it....

    But, I hated it, especially with the 4-cylinder.... and, if you had to disable it every time you started the car, that would be a non-starter for me... (pun intended, naturally..)

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    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,144
    Let me jump in here about the great BMW and its auto start - again its done so BMW can improve its MPG mandates - any gain is a good one, certainly when the 3 has to carry the line of bmws (x3,x5,x6 and m cars) Cafe results.

    To say the idea of turning a button off or on as a deal breaker is a joke, so many other dealbreakers somehow get overlooked - no Spare tire and run flats 2 that come to mind - inflated price another.

    When I bought my g - a coworker who had one told me to save the breaks I should shut down the stability control every time I get in- I have done so everyday I owned the car, no idea If this has helped the pads (I keep it on in rain). I also put a seat belt on every day- also not a deal breaker for me.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,620
    edited August 2012
    I deliberately left the start/stop feature on during my 8 mile test loop in the new 335i and I could barely notice the start/stop.

    Frankly the price tag is a lot more of a deal-breaker for me( I buy my Bimmers well used to avoid the massive depreciation hit).

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,565
    I wonder if it's just that much more noticeable on the N20 powered 328s.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • Which model S60 did you go with? T5, T6 -- I'm sorry, the turbo comment may have been an indicator, but I can't recall if both the T5 and T6 are now (2013) turbos.
  • Shut down the stability control to save the brakes? How would shutting down this feature save either rotors or pads? OK, now I kind of get how if you push the car so that it "needs" to apply the left rear brake or right front brake or some combination in order to stabilize the car, you might save a bit of wear -- at the cost of reduced stability.

    But, if you are not in any situation that might require such an electronic intervention, why would turning the ESP off be helpful? ABS only comes into play when braking so hard that sliding tires are a possibility, but ABS typically cannot be defeated (it is just always at attention, awaiting to be called upon). I would think ESP causes no brake wear period if it is never engaged.

    Seems like turning it off increases the danger of understeer, oversteer and out of control situations (on dry, wet or snow/ice surfaces alike -- albeit at lower speeds the slicker the surface becomes).

    :confuse:
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,229
    nyc, ivan, andy, kyfdx, et al......I don't think fuel savings with auto on/off via the 3 series were anywhere near 10%. I remember reading somewhere that it amounted to 1% or so. Again, that figure would vary depending on the amount of stop and go driving.

    I don't think anyone would object to the feature. However, it was implemented poorly, causing the entire car to shudder very noticeably on restart. Not very becoming of a $40K-$50K car.

    Both of the ones I drove were 4 cyl cars.
  • jeffm5jeffm5 Posts: 109
    It's a T5 turbo. I think that's what the T stands for.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,313
    yes, both turbos.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,525
    Is the Jaguar XF
    [ now with available 4-cyl - or V6 and AWD for 2013 ]
    seen as part of this group?
    - Ray
    MSRP now as low as $47,805....
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,144
    " OK, now I kind of get how if you push the car so that it "needs" to apply the left rear brake or right front brake or some combination in order to stabilize the car, you might save a bit of wear -- at the cost of reduced stability. "

    yeah thats what was told to me about possible reduced wear, on the stability - again i use it in rain and snow- but for everyday driving I like to feel in control my self- this stability control is a great safety feature for sure but growing up we did not have such a feature, so does it increase the danger factor, yes- but I like to live dangerously--
  • "but I like to live dangerously-- "
    Stay in New York or wherever you are from with that mindset.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,565
    Sweendogy's a Jersey guy. I think he's quoting Austin Powers.

    "I also like to live dangerously"

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,144
    Yeah man- I just do it bc someone who I worked with said the dealer told him to do it to save his pads- again I went thru pads at 20k so did it help, I don't know.
    On the stability side I leave it on in the rain and snow - when it's clear I actually like having the back slide out a bit every now and them- like to be engaged with the car - and not a computer .
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,144
    Actually bronx, now new England
  • ESP is one of the (Car and Driver says its the #1) best applications of technology for safety and performance. The possible increase in wear is almost certainly minimal.

    Your ability to turn it on when you think you'll need it is an interesting approach -- to me it seems like saying "I'll only fasten my seat belt when I think I will wreck."

    The value of ESP is probably its most profound in those situations where you can't see or know for certain there is a coefficient of friction issue. Or even when it is not raining or snowing, it is possible to get yourself into an understeering situation or even oversteer before you know it and at that exact moment in time I would doubt someone could react and push the ESP "on" button.

    I'm not too sure you really WANT to live THAT dangerously?!?

    Do you turn off your ABS too? (assuming you had one of the very few cars that allow that anymore as Audis used to allow.)
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,144
    edited August 2012
    Mark thanks for your concern but no need for lectures- I've read the same articles you quote- and like I said before stability control is a great feature but again what did we do without it- my answer is cope with the situation at hand - if my car is a little loose in a turn I have 3 options - break, off gas, on gas - ive been to a number of schools and seem enuf situations to know what to do at a certain time - I also don't drive like an a-hole so I should be able to adapt in most situations. If I loose it it's on me- I know most here love the espn and cvts but for me I like the feeling of driving. ( again in rain and snow, and on roads i dont know I keep it on)- i also buckle up - every time, never know when a guy with an a4 or Tl awd type s sh-awd will t-bone me at a light while he's texting .

    Enjoy the cvt and espn and the computers- But I dont

    Can't turn off the abs - but yes, answer your question yes I like to live "that" dangerously -like my old man with his 79 nova, I drive without espn. 2007 g35, 31k miles and not a curb mark.

    Don't be a dink
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,992
    edited August 2012
    "and like I said before stability control is a great feature but again what did we do without it- "

    A lot more of us were killed....that's what we did. Stability control is probably the most helpful in an extreme emergency manuever. Just like ABS it helps keep the car under control. If you think you know for sure exactly when the next yahoo is going to run you off the road or pull out in front of you and you need to control your car than you should be a fortune teller.

    Traction control is pretty useful too. What did I do before traction control? I spun my rear wheels all over the place in the snow even with good snow tires.

    It's obvious you think you're Mario Andretti and could also care less if losing control of your car causes someone elses injury or death. And you are telling other's not to be a dink? Look in the mirror my friend.

    BTW, I haven't heard that term used in about thirty years. Maybe it's a regional thing. Kind of thought that went the way of "fairy hooks" if anybody remembers that one.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    Back in 2002 I had a 2003 G35 when they were first released.

    I too had the traction/stability turned off in dry weather.

    The car was very well balanced and I would give it a little power to bring the rear end 6-12 inches out. It would always tuck back in and straighten out. You'd really...really have to try hard in order to spin out of control (I never had); it was very predictable and consistent.

    This wasn't a big NHRA burnout...but a small chirp of the tires with the engine revving and I didn't do it at every corner (that was when I was 16...) or near the daycare; just the odd time to remember my youth.

    Probably not the utmost ideal level of safety, but neither was the time I took a call on my mobile phone, reached across to the passenger foot-well to pick something up, fiddled with the radio selection, reached behind me to put a pacifier in the baby's mouth...and took it way past the posted limit on the highway (no baby in the car then). BTW, this didn't occur all in one day but the span of a couple years.

    Sometimes I eat too much red meat...but I wouldn't consider myself reckless :shades:
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,751
    Shut down the stability control to save the brakes?

    If you don't wear your seat belts it saves the springs in the retractors, too. :blush:
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,525
    R&T did a tech article on start\stop technology in their June issue. [ For some reason, still not posted on their web site. ] they rated 10 systems [ a couple with both automatic and manual transmissions ] and the BMW 328 was the ONLY system that was graded as low as C or D in rating ‘smoothness, predictability, confidence’. And both automatic and manual 328i versions were rated their lowest grades - C = ‘noticeable but acceptable’ or D = ‘distracting’.

    Others rated were Buick, Honda, Infiniti, Kia, M-B, Porsche and Toyota.
    Odd.
    - Ray
    Note – BMW’s system ‘throbs’ . . .
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,144
    m6 - thanks for the post, it reads the same as marks but when you put the word "killed" in it - wow powerful stuff.... so this stability control is very useful-- i got it now-- thanks man--

    Mario Andretti comment-- again - powerful =
    I will never touch that button again...

    dink comment- again you are right.. im going to look in the visor mirrior
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,229
    ray....BMW's stop/start tech seems to follow a trend with them. Like their iDrive, it took 2-3 generations for them to get it right. Same is probably true for their start/stop tech. It will take them 2-3 releases (maybe even model years) to get it right.

    Surprising, given BMW's engineering prowess, and their early adoption of technology in cars.

    No matter, since the feature can be totally defeated, that fixes what was an unnecessary and ill-implemented attempt to increase MPG.
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