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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,143
    What is a short period of time- ? the g35/37 is now in its 10th year, and 2 generations. I'm sure we will see a hike in price but don't you think Infiniti knows its main draw is similar performance at a cheaper price- I mean it's been doing it right for 10 plus years.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,992
    infiniti can only be based as a value buy for a short time.

    Why? No, car will ever be exactly the same as a BMW, or any other brand for that matter, as they all have their little differences. Infiniti has chosen a path to be similar to a BMW but also different( and in some categories better) and for a little less money. Seems to work for them so why do you say they can only do it for a short time? I don't try to come off as a marketing genius like some people but that's like saying BMW can only price a 3 series up to mid $50s for a short time because it costs too much. Silly.

    Just because something is priced a few thousand less does not make it any less of luxury car. If the car itself deserves to be in luxury class because of it's trimmings, equipment, quality and dealer experience...then it is.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,228
    robbie....I agree with your assessments. I don't know that Cadillac can shake its "value luxury" image, no matter what they do.

    FN....I see what you're saying. But, I think it stems from the fact that both Infiniti and Acura were, at least at their inception, marketed as BMW/Mercedes/Audi competitors. Whether it was ever true, I really don't know. I know the Legend was, at one time, King of the sport/lux hill. Lexus always chose the roll of a "better" Buick/Cadillac. The Infiniti M has tried, mostly in vain, to compete with the E Series, 5 series, A6. It never really crossed that barrier. The G got close to the BMW3, but never quite got there. Now, Infiniti seems to have fallen even farther behind.

    But, I can't tell if this is a temporary thing for Infiniti (or for Acura, for that matter). We'll see. As both the RL/TL(X) and the G are due for major redos. Hard to tell where they'll fall with those vehicles.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,143
    Lots of generalizations - no real facts in the statements above. Look at the us sales numbers and tell me how much they have fallen (except Acura)

    Try again
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,633
    Sweeny if you think Infiniti is happy with second place think twice... Infiniti has ALWAYS been in second place, with the competition getting better and better, and for less money or the same as Infiniti why would anyone want to get a car that is always in second place?
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,633
    Sweeny, over on the Infiniti board here on Edmond's, the price/lease payments for the G37's are crazy low, 18 month lease with $1800 out of pocket and payments of $280/m+ tax that is a steal, so if infiniti is "selling" a lof of them it is because of these insanely low prices, their money factor must be next to none thing. This indicator only shows that people are looking for a great deal and are happy with the Infiniti, I wonder if BMW did the same thing, how many cars they would move...
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,143
    Never said they were "happy" - but I do know that the infinti brand for Nissan is a pimple on the azz of cars they sell- bread and butter car is the Altima. Tey have done a godoy job being a second place option to the mighty 3. They sell a boatload of second place cars- so for you to say they are always in second- might be the case - but again where is the slippage ?

    Why would anyone buy a second place car? Well it's a better value and has proven itself over the past 10 years-
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,143
    On cheap leasing- Infiniti is just a carbon copy of what BMW has done for years- don't have the exact number but it's well over 50% of 3s are leased. They also have good residual value (and let's not forget the maintence scam) . So BMW has been doing the same thing for years guess you hadn't noticed the amound of $45k cars rolling on the LIE during the mini recession of 07-2010.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited September 2012
    I don't think anybody knowingly buys a car that is in "second place" for what their priorities are.

    I would agree that if you compare certain driving dynamics of the G37 vs. the 335i you will conclude that BMW has the edge. But do the same thing for a FWD or even AWD automatic TL, and you come to the same conclusion just as quickly. Price point, features, maintenance costs, etc. all come into play and - hopefully - one has the good sense to buy what they believe is the right combination for them.

    The problem would be if Infiniti priced the G37 exactly the same as a 335i, offered exactly the same features and options, marketed the car as a direct competitor to the 335i, but fell short on driving dynamics. I don't think that's the case here.

    Personally, I think the 335i would fall into second place if I was buying a sedan today. At a price that is at or above $55k for a well optioned, performance model, it is way too close to the $65k+/- that I could buy an naturally aspirated 8,400 rpm M3 at. No comparison on driving dynamics, period. But that's my value judgement and someone else's is likely to be different.
  • 335i - already 3rd place behind MB and Audi IME. Mebbe 4th behind Infiniti if price is considered. In front of Lexus though.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Again, I respect your subjective assessment based upon your priorities/preferences. I can't imagine anyone objectively giving Mercedes or Audi a higher objective mark than the 335i in driving dynamics (assuming you are comparing to a RWD, manual transmission, sport package 335i). But, obviously, a lot of people buy Mercedes and Audi based upon other preferences and priorities.

    Even when I bought my 2004 TL 6-speed, I was willing to compromise on driving dynamics to save $10k, get more space, a little better foul weather traction, and the Acura reliability/lower cost maintenance peace of mind. I would not make that same choice today. Different time, different circumstances, different priorities. That's not to say I didn't make my "first choice" in 2004 correctly, just that I would make a different one today.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,992
    "I can't imagine anyone objectively giving Mercedes or Audi a higher objective mark than the 335i in driving dynamics "

    I didn't read into his statement that driving dynamics was the only consideration. This topic, ELLPS, is not just for people looking to drive like Mario Andretti the 1% of the time they get the chance. People look at these vehicles for many different reasons so just because a car is #1 in driving dynamics does not make it the best car in this class. To some it may, but others may put long term relaiblility and less frequent and expensive repairs at the top of their priority list. Lots of different folks in this category and not just those that want to drive a car to it's absolute limits. If one never drives a car to it's absolute limits than that factor becomes much less of a consideration.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,565
    Personally, I think the 335i would fall into second place if I was buying a sedan today. At a price that is at or above $55k for a well optioned, performance model, it is way too close to the $65k+/- that I could buy an naturally aspirated 8,400 rpm M3 at

    I think your line of thinking is completely different than many people who buy in this category. There are a lot of people out there who lease. I also believe there are A LOT of people out there who lease and do not understand leasing. You say that $55K + is too much for a 335i & you'd rather have an M3 for not too much more. I think there are a lot of "aspiring" aspiring ELLPS buyers/lessors who put money down on leases and say "you know, for another $X down and just $Y per month more, I could be driving a 335i instead of a 328i."

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,565
    To say that one manufacturer is better than another because of the current lease terms or current incentives is not right. Every manufacturer in this segment has some kind of different incentive every month to move metal. We all know how they do it.

    BMW subsidizes their leases with high residual values. According to BMWFS, after 30 months my 2011 328xi will be worth $26,406 with 50K on the odometer. My car is going straight to auction and they will loose their shirt. The car will be 3 model years old (with the 2015s coming out not too long after that, so almost 4) and the old body style.

    Infiniti uses low money factors.

    Mercedes-Benz uses conquest cash.

    Acura uses loyalty cash & low APR. If you follow the "prices paid" or "lease questions" of any particular make/model it is apparent.

    I'll be the 1st one to admit that my 2011 E90 328xi lease is a splurge for me. If it wasn't for the generous incentives ($2500 cash, sixty something percent residual value after 30 months, BMWFS makes 1st 2 payments up to $500 each) offered by BMWFS in March 2012 on leftover 2011 models, I'd still be driving my 2010 Acura TSX.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I think you are right about the lease vs. buy tending to cloud or change the value analysis. I always buy and pay with cash. Keeps me from overspending and - especially when I had my 911 "fun" car - feeling guilty that I had payments due in January February and March with the car sitting in my garage.

    Lease equations can lead to different results. When we just bought our X5d, I couldn't see paying $1,500 for the premium sound package given what I thought was nominal benefit. But if it had worked out to only $10 extra per month for 36 months due to the way BMW makes the numbers work, maybe I would figured what the hell and checked the box.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,565
    I think the majority of us here on the ELLPS board DO NOT represent the typical buyer. We're enthusiasts, many of us would take a stick even if it meant giving up a few 10ths to 60 & a few mpg on the hwy (if it weren't for our wives), & we shop for the car we like to drive rather than wear.

    There are people out there who have the mindset that a car payment is like another monthly bill. They like the smell of a new car every 2-3 years. If they are going to pay $500 a month (on a 60 month loan) for a loaded CamCord, then they might as well pay $600 a month (I'm just throwing this number out there) for a $45 - $50K BMW on a lease.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,633
    BMW has three option to purchase a car, typical financing, leasing and what BMW calls BMW Select. The BMW Select is very much like a lease, except there are no mileage restriction... So BMW has multi ways of buying a BMW.

    BTW, BMW does not have a special for 18 months like the Infiniti, and no one can not lease a $45K BMW for $280/m with only $2200 out of pocket.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,633
    Why would people buy a second place car, for one, they can not afford the #1 car and to these people they are OK with second place... Example, my Rick, he is very happy with his Genesis, people don't usually give it a second look, which is fine with him, however, it has more standard feature then a 5 series and a MB E Class or Audi A6 for the same price as a base 328i...
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited September 2012
    So, for Rick, the Genesis came in first place when he overlayed his price vs attribute ( ie value) priorities.

    It bugs me a bit when I see car magazines do a comparison of cars and mix subjective value factors into determining a "winner". Just give me the objective facts about the cars. I'll figure out whether performance vs. luxury options vs. warranty vs. aesthetics determines the winner for me. And respect the fact that that might be different for the next guy. That doesn't mean one of us bought a "loser" .
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,143
    edited September 2012
    Flight - I know about BMW select its a creative way for someone to drive a BMW - net net they don't own it- 60% are leased.

    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-07-23/cadillac-driving-to-disrupt-bmw-merc- - edes-u-dot-s-dot-luxury-grip

    The Infiniti deal you are quoting is a little misleading , the 36k msrp g25- not 37 and the payment on the 25 is 289 with 2500 down-For 24mths not 18 that's the Infiniti offer.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,143
    Flight you answered your own question- good stuff now you know why people would look at the g- it's performance and cheaper price and say- close enuf and the 15k I saved l
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,565
    Those 18 month leases were quite attractive. Infiniti put those out there because they had a lot of inventory & a lot of people with leases set to expire in the next 12 months or so. They know the new G isn't ready & the current G is toward the end of its model run. People lease because they like change & variety. Instead of losing a pool of potential customers to BMW, MB, Audi, Volvo, Acura... They get them into THEIR new car for another 18 months. They probably waived a few months of payments & reduced their customer's current payment on the same car. Hopefully in 12 - 18 months their customers will lease a new, more powerful, more efficient, G.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,565
    I always try to say "nice car" if I see a cool car filling up next to me at a gas station. Last week I pull in & right behind me is an '09 328xi. We got out of the car at the same time & he was looking at my car. I smiled & said "nice car." He said, "yeah, you too. I really like the Silver."

    I notice EVERYTHING about cars & saw as I was pumping 93 into my tank that he had selected 89 (mid grade). His car had the base (horrible looking IMO) 16" wheels that were on the '09s, he was fumbling with the windshield mounted GPS & it looked as if it hadn't been cleaned in 6 months.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,992
    I notice EVERYTHING about cars & saw as I was pumping 93 into my tank that he had selected 89 (mid grade). His car had the base (horrible looking IMO) 16" wheels that were on the '09s, he was fumbling with the windshield mounted GPS & it looked as if it hadn't been cleaned in 6 months.

    And your point is???
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,992
    edited September 2012
    So, for Rick, the Genesis came in first place when he overlayed his price vs attribute ( ie value) priorities

    Good point and is exactly what I was saying previously. The BMW may be #1 in a couple of categories which is MOST important to SOME ELLPS buyers. To many other ELLPS buyers the value equation may be more important. Long term reliability and repair frequency and cost are very important to me as I buy cars for cash and keep them for at least 6 years, some longer. I want a peppy, luxurious, smaller car that I don't have to have repaired frequently once the warranty is gone(or before for that matter) and I like a nice handling car but I don't need one that I can zip around the cloverleafs at 70mph....50 is fine thank you.

    So BMW can be #1 for some people but for many it is much farther down the list for a number of valid reasons. Nobody is arguing that it is not #1 in cutting corners. So to say a certain car is "loser" or always #2 is ridiculous as it is #1 to the thousands that buy it. And to also say that those same people cannot afford another few thousand dollars more is elitist to say the least and condescending at best.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,565
    These are BMW's primary customers, not enthusiasts like many if us here.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,565
    Excellent point. I agree 95% with what you say (I like taking the clover leafs @ 70:)

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • If you want numbers read Road and Track, if you want subjective and numbers Car and Driver. Subjective means a lot.

    The Japanese design their cars by numbers, start with a spec sheet and what comes out comes out and then looks great on paper.

    Anyone who drives one as well as a German or American car can tell you, there's loads of difference in how they drive and feel - even when the numbers aren't that different.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I agree. There are far more qualitative differences to performance and handling than raw numbers can represent.

    Should have clarified that what I don't care for is the "price/value" element of the rankings. I'm OK with subjective rankings that would say steering feel is a 10 on a 911 and a 3 on a Buick. I just don't want to see the Buick ranked 1st after "price consideration".

    Some of th magazines separate this adjustment out, so you can disregard it. Other's build it into their selection of a "winner" that I think is highly subjective and inaccurate at best, unethical at worst if they are vying for advertising dollars.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,228
    wireless, habitat.....agree with you both. I think as buyers, we all put different weights on specific parameters, regardless of what kind of car we're looking at.

    In any given price range, some put price above all other parameters. I'm not one of those. I want the best I can afford.

    That said, I've discounted buying some cars which others consider to be "tops" in their class. Mercedes immediately to mind. They cost roughly the same amount as an Audi or a BMW. But, they fall way short on the things I value most (performance and driving dynamics).

    I've tried hard to like Infinitis....over the course of many years. If, for no other reason, I could have saved myself a few bucks over what I end up buying. Even being less expensive than a 3 series or an Audi, they just don't appeal to me, for a variety of reasons.

    Obviously, they appeal to plenty of people, just not to me.
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