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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,913
    Did you recently buy a new car because the financing offer was too good to pass up? If so, a reporter would like to talk with you about your experience. Please contact pr@edmunds.com by end of day Tuesday, September 25, 2012 with a brief account of your purchase and your preferred contact information.

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  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,685
    It bugs me a bit when I see car magazines do a comparison of cars and mix subjective value factors into determining a "winner"

    I agree, give me the facts about the car, price should not determine a winner. Let the buyer (me) determine if the added price should sway me to look at other cars.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,189
    Sorry boys In a comparison test price must be included- as someone noted Have to compare Apples to apples - not 911s to buicks - Price is not subjective it's a matter of fact. Also important is where a car is classified by the manufacture- whos its target competition-
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I haven't seen too many 911 vs. Regal comparisons. Price is an objective fact, so go ahead and publish it. Just don't try to then extrapolate it into a subjective value analysis that will vary greatly buyer to buyer. Nimble handling and precise engineering mean a lot to me, maybe not so much to the next guy. We can each figure out how much we are willing to pay for it without having the reviewer pick a winner based upon price.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,189
    Objective fact-

    So if your Looking at a group of cars that are Ellps- an one costs 15k more then the next your telling me that should nt be part of the comparison?

    There is a reason the Camry and accord battle every year forks sold- they are so close in everthing - but if the accord was 10k more I guarantee you try would be a huge separation in sales.

    Not everyone has a tesla on order
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited September 2012
    I think we are going in circles. I didn't say that price shouldn't be listed/included in the review. I simply said I don't need a reviewer to pick a "winner" based upon his subjective assessment of value. I can determine what something is worth to me all by myself, thank you very much.

    If car and driver picked the Honda Accord as a winner over the Genesis because they didn't think the extra features of the genesis were worth the added price, would flight's partner have changed his decision? It doesn't matter what they think those features are worth, it's what he thinks they are worth. Why insult somebody who has different value priorities by labeling their choice a "loser" based upon yours?
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,189
    Ok so they should just compare 2 cars but have no conclusion.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    I think you're confusing "loser" with a car coming in 2nd or 3rd. I don't think you would call someone that gets a silver or bronze medal a loser. They just weren't the best for the readership the magazine thinks/wants to attract. Usually these comparison tests are biased towards evaluation criteria that may or may not be the most important aspect for a lot of readers. I don't buy my cars based on which one came out first in any comparison so I don't lose much sleep worrying about it.

    These mags are in business to make money. People buy and read them for their professional opinions good or bad. If you don't want opinions don't buy the mags or visit the websites and just download the specs from the manufacturers. Life is constant weighing of cost versus reward and the vast majority of people that read these comparisons, IMO, are looking for opinions on value among all the other things.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,685
    Sweeny when it comes to ELLPS it is a different category of buyers then those who buy Camry's and Accord. The buyers of the Camry and Accord are looking for the BEST deal around, I remember reading that the average income of the Camry and Accord and Altima buyer was roughly 75K, when it comes to 3 series, A4, C class the average income is roughly 150K/yr.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    The buyers of the Camry and Accord are looking for the BEST deal around,

    I guess you mean the cheapest by your comment without regard to which is a better car. The Camry is usually not the cheapest alternative in this class of cars and since it's still the biggest seller I guess the majority are NOT looking for the BEST deal in regards to price but also consider other factors. Just because someone earns less doesn't mean they don't care about what they drive and how it drives. They just have less choices.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,665
    edited September 2012
    I don't need a reviewer to pick a "winner" based upon his subjective assessment of value.

    Agreed, but how often does that happen? I'm truly not sure. I do know there are many comparisons where price is factored as a number in the tally. So an $80k car is 10 points and a $100k car is 8 points ... or something to that effect.

    On of the big mags just did a whole series of comparisons of far less expensive cars vs the luxury counterparts and they came up with a value vs content equation. The results were mixed, with some cheaper cars coming out ahead and some expensive cars. Their calculation, however, seemed subjective to me.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • "when it comes to 3 series, A4, C class the average income is roughly 150K/yr. "

    Wow- that means there are a lot of people making $150K anually, I would have never thought that most recent Grads made that much- at least at my job.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,106
    edited September 2012
    We're all rationalizers -- some of the time or a lot of the time -- convincing ourselves that what [car] we aquired is the car we wanted (under the circumstances.) I have been away for about 250 posts and finally got enough time to mostly catch up with the posts that have piled up over the past 5 or 6 weeks or so.

    It seems that we're "arguing" (in the best sense of the word) over Infiniti being perpetually number two or Acura this or Hyundai that, 6-speed manual this vs 8-speed tip or step-troic that. I get the sense that the collective "we" -- the portion of the "we" that do not have BMWs -- avert our eyes and bow our heads and speak of Bimmers in hushed tones.

    It seems to me that the collective "we" would have only BMWs if only they had Infiniti's (or some other brand's) super lease deals. So I got to thinking, "if" BMWs were actually priced to lease (or whatever form of financing you choose to use) for $199 or $299 or even $399 per month (in other words, equal to or less than the "price per" that everything else is -- in the class we go on about here) would there even be any market left for Acura's, Audi's, Infiniti's, and all the rest?

    In other words, are we all (or almost all) frustrated BMW owners who "rationalize" not having them by using the code word "value?" Most of us who have the cars classed as ELLPS or even ELLPS-wanna be's (the Genesis, perhaps?) could afford any one of the cars herein discussed -- but choose not to go for the most expensive (assuming for a moment that means BMW) because they want to have that new home theater, children, Italian (or where ever) vacations or larger investment accounts.

    Who actually speaks the words, "I settled for an X-place (anything less than 1st) car," assuming they did not get a BMW? Hmm, well, I would have rather had an A4, A6 or an Infiniti M than an Acura TL -- but I factored in "opportunity cost" (and in my case I'll call it monthly payment on a 36 month lease term). If the other cars on my short list had been offered at the same monthly lease payment, I probably would not have considered the TL.

    But, hell, if I could get an Audi S8 for $541 a month for 36 months, that's the one I would go for (I might even "settle" for an S6, just because I perceive the S6 probably handles better.)

    So, after reading nearly 250 posts in rapid fire progression, I have decided that "we" don't settle, we don't all "wish" we could have had a BMW; we just got something different because we do not think monolithically. Those who have BMWs have settled, perhaps, for higher payments or lower durability or quicker acceleration, better performance, higher or lower fuel economy, or whatever the facts support.

    Those who settled for the [perhaps mythical] $199 per month for 18 months Infiniti G, got, um, more money in their investment accounts or in their money clips -- who knows.

    I, for one, now have several friends or associates who have eschewed re-upping for another BMW in favor of a Genesis or Equus despite the Korean's inability to blow the doors off of an M5 or 7 seriese or S class. I wish there would be a place to see just how many "conquests" are made by a Genesis or Equus -- my friends experiences, even if their choices were significant data points, are pretty much just anecdotes.

    I'm thinking, now that I have but 22 months to go on my lease, that I will get an S6, assuming they cost no more than $599 per month for 36 months. I won't settle for anything less!

    Drive it like you live. :surprise:
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,548
    I settled for an X-place (anything less than 1st) car

    I would have no problem in saying that. I go for value all the time. I almost never buy what I think is best in absolute terms. All I say in those situations: I know X is better, but it is by Y percent more expensive and I don't think is Y percent better. I even have no problem in admitting I would not have gotten my 328i, if Infiniti, Lexus, Audi or Acura had offered a vehicle passing three basic requirements: low sitting (no claddings, no "crossover", no SUV), rear hatch, and manual transmission. But they did not, so my choice was easy.

    Now, the manual wagon is gone. There will be new 328 with automatic only. But I got mine now, so I'll worry when I need to.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,982
    Officially announced there will be NO MORE G25 sedan for 2013

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,548
    Well, not much of a loss.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,189
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,530
    q....I saw that article comparing wildly disparate price points for cars. Car and Driver?

    The only issue I have with comparisons that include price, veteran car buyers tend to pay much less than MSRP. IIRC, I think I was almost $5K under MSRP on my '11 335i. But, I doubt very seriously one could buy a 2013 335i coupe (which is essentially identical to mine) for that price. Does that change the rankings? It should!

    Mark....man, if you get an S6, I'm going to be very seriously jealous. :)
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,576
    'Mark....man, if you get an S6, I'm going to be very seriously jealous.'
    Me, too!
    - Ray
    Not in that market... sadly
  • If I can lease an S6 for $599 per month, you should be jealous.

    I should lease two of them at that price and then re-lease the second one for double (which is probably what they really lease for anyway.)

    :cry:
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,685
    Nope never said cheapest now did I, I said best deal. M6 when was the last time you went and bought a Camry or an Accord? A neighbor just bought/leased a 2013 Altima, 2.5 SV, MSRP $26K, his monthly payments are $310/m with ZERO down 36 months 15K/yr. The D class of cars is a hot segment and high sales doesn't always mean being better. Nissan right now is giving smoking deals on their altima's right now to give them volume. I do have to say though, the Altima has a better interior then Camry, I currently have a 2012 Camry SE as a rental.

    In regards to Best price, Even mighty Honda been bending over to make deals to move the Accord, as well as Toyota. Starting next week when the new 2013 Ford Fusions hit the dealerships, add another car to the D class and see what happens....
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,685
    I wouldn't be surprised when the next Gen G arrives you see a G25 (or some other designation), with a turbo 4 making roughly 250hp. Since Nissan has some turbo 4's running around their parts bin that would make a nice addition to the Infiniti line up.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    edited September 2012
    Well, five years ago we bought a Mazda6 for the wife and test drove nearly every midsize family car at the time. Is that a more recent purchase in that class than you? When did you last purchase in that class and what difference to the conversation does it make anyway? Do I have to have shopped in that class to comment on it? I really don't understand the rest of your post about neighbor bought/leased the Altima but I still get the impression that you are insinuating that people that buy these type cars are just looking for the best deal or best price without regard to which one they like best. Did your neighbor get the Altima just because it was the "best deal" or do they actually prefer that car over all others in the class? You said all they consider is the "best deal".

    And I never said highest sales meant a car was better. Just said that people were willing to pay a little more for the Camry than they may for others in the class which indicated to me that they were not just looking for the best deal without regard to the vehicle itself.
  • Always preaching that the TL and TSX are dead breed and your own brand is dying slowly.:(
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,685
    My neighbor went to a Toyota , and Honda Dealer and came home with the Altima. The Nissan dealer game him the best deal. He was shopping best price. Yes, people continue to go back to the brand they know and trust, however, in the D class, price is one of the biggest motivators these days.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,189
    Ok great post- infiniti failed at throwing a weak v6 - and price it wrong- yes - the g25 was a fail. Remember they used in house body and engine and development took no time- but again it was a mistake.

    Billy I would check sales numbers again and tell me how they are dieing ? The new released suv is killing it, and the g which has been around for 6 years still sells very well.

    Try again
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,685
    I'm sure with the next Generation G, they will have two models and price them accordingly, I hope they use a newer generation FJ motor, 250hp from a 2.5 liter turbo...
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,685
    Well according to Car and Driver and carscoops it is.

    http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2012/10/cadillac-ats-20l-turbo-loses-another.html

    Let the debated and insults begin.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,548
    edited October 2012
    Seems like they are saying ATS beat the 3 in driving experience, especially "sporty" twist road driving, but BMW was deemed a better "all around", because of interior and cockpit experience. It's kind of funny, because I always thought BMW are hard to beat on the road, but their interiors are designed in 5 minutes that are left after suspension and engine testing and the production deadline. Dashboards look the same as they did 25 years ago, the aesthetics are quite austere. Seems to me ATS has a few corrections, but the ones that are easy to make (better touchscreen experience and more cohesive design).

    So, if anything, C&D piece seems like this: BMW, we give you first place, but if you keep going this road (of bigger, softer), this may be your last time. This looks like lifetime achievement award and yellow flag, confirming all those complaints of long-time BMW fans, who simply don't care for the F30, even if it sells well.

    BTW, this is painful to me to write, but gives me a little satisfaction of validation of my jumping to E91 when it was still available.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,982
    +1

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

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