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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

1497498500502503583

Comments

  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,147
    I think I would worry about the electronic gremlins in the dash more then the engine with standard maintience.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    edited January 2013
    I should have been less definitive in my post. It was an opinion, not a statement of fact, based on general MB (lack) of reliability record in last 10+ years, myriad of statements from automotive press, some anectotal report from commercial drivers of "new diesels". In other words, I should have written something like "many people, including me, do not expect those engines last anywhere close to those 300 TDs, even when properly maintained - which in itself is more expensive and a chore". There is also matter of complexity, the more complex those motors are, the more things can go wrong. Yes, it is an opinion. Btw, the last item applies pretty much to all engines. It will be much harder to run those new 250 hp gasoline turbos to 200k miles, too, not without expensive electronic overhauls, which nobody will be willing to pay for (you put in several thousands and you still get old car). I'm not even so sure about basic mechanical parts, like pistons, or shafts, either - in current drive to remove mass, optimize performance, redundancies are being removed, which in turn must cut into durability. Again, just an opinion, but based on some general engineering priciples I use at work in another field (structures).

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,584
    I agree with you dino001. Manufacturers that offer diesels don't work for me. I'd welcome the extended range & consider the price differential as an engine upgrade.

    VW offers cheap diesels, but frankly long term durability scares me.

    BMW's twin turbo Diesel I6 is a gem. I'm not in the market for a $65K X5d. Even CPO, they are pricey. The E90 335d is only offered in RWD.

    I'm not in the market for a $55K Bluetec E350 or ML 350 either.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 394
    You still haven't said why it is a bad thing for the diesels to even be offered here, get that you prefer a gas engine, and I respect your opinion and would never want you to not be able to buy one ( the Government may have different ideas, but that applies to the diesels as well), why shouldn't people who want to buy a diesel car have a chance to do so? Are you afraid that your preferred gas engined cars will disappear? ( not likely any time in the near future, as you said they are still improving them, and even in Europe they still make up half the market).
    In any case you are entitled to your opinion, and no one here would want you to be forced to buy a diesel, hopefully both engine types can finally be available here, and diesels can begin to build a bit of market share, but if they turn out to be as bad as you think ( hint they won't, but I do agree they may not last any longer than a gas engine now, who knows for sure, but they likely won't be any worse either). Hopefully you can see that some people are interested in getting diesel in their cars and are excited by the possibility of getting one that is not a VW.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,999
    In regards to hybrids, is there a hybrid sold in the US that does not have a CVT?

    Yes, the Hyundai Sonata and Kia Optima hybrid models both use the same reg auto transmission as their non-hybrid versions.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    edited January 2013
    Oh no, you must have misunderstood my intent. I am never against choices, so if somebody makes it and somebody else wants it, I have no problem. Not for me, but sure, if there is market why not. I find my own preferences in minority all too often to ever even hint of prohibition of anything.

    I only contested claims that just because European market has a lot of diesel powered small cars, they must be great or even better than gas engines for non-commercial passenger cars. I basically think diesels would not be nearly as popular there, if not for government interference and heavy regulatory hand and steep disincentives for large displacement engines. In my opinion, American market, prior current administration's overzealous initiatives was closest to "natural", with some limitations of course. I would risk saying that majority of Europeans would take American sixes and eights without blinking. They'd keep interiors and suspensions of their current cars, but they would be more than happy to switch those 1.6 cdi, or whatever, to 3.5 V6, if the government only "let" the them. I don't mean those are prohibited, but they are prohibitively expensive due to government. The said part is, current Administration wants to do the same.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    I also believe Honda CRZ can even be had with manual. But that is so-called soft hybrid.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 394
    Okay Dino maks more sense now.
    I don't think the American market was closest to natural as diesels have not been offered here due to overegulation, I do agree that the playing field was/ is uneven in Europe though, I would guess the percentages for diesel in the fleet would be somewhere around 15-20% or maybe a bit higher if everything was even in terms of fuel taxes etc, I think people are used to gas engines and how they run, that said the torque low down and the low revs of the engine will appeal to a lot of people as well, the fuel economy is still better ( though the gap has closed). In any case as more non VW mainstream diesel's get here we will see if there is a market for them or not, right now we can only guess, I know I like my small diesel, though I wouldn't mind getting something a little larger ( the size of a Mazda 3 or so) with a diesel and probably getting close to the milage I am getting with my smart diesel. I did grow up with European cars so am used ota smaller engine than most Americans/Canadians, so accept a smaller more efficient engine better than some. In any case each to his own, I am just happy to see some diesels coming here, and looking forward to seeing how they sell and how they are rated for fuel economy etc.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    I agree there may be a anti-diesel bias in emission regularions here, so it is fair to say there would have been more of them in smaller vehicles, if not for it. Considering Europe has 50% penetration through heavy regulation, US has nearly zero, also due to bias, 10-20% "natural" penetration makes sense to me, if regs were left neutral. There are legitimate uses for diesel in smaller vehicles, mostly in high mileage highway application, a bit less in city, but still. Cabs, minivans, some SUVs, especially those used hauling boats, or outdoors/off-road. Anything that hints severe operaton, heavy duty, long running times. Diesels last longest when kept warm, virtually on at all time, running at constant speeds.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,637
    I know this is the ELLPS forum, however, the topic goes all over the place, so here is the official introduction of the 2014 C7 Vette. 450hp 450lbs of torque, not too bad.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2014-chevrolet-c7-corvette-stingray-z51-photos-- and-info-news?src=spr_FBPAGE&spr_id=1458_6594116
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Again, just an opinion, but based on some general engineering priciples I use at work in another field (structures).

    I respect your general comments, but I think you need to take blind opinion-ism and replace it with a little more objective research and analysis. For example:

    According to NADA, the retail resale value of a 2008 Mercedes E320 CDI with 75,000 miles is $26,065. The resale value of the same E350 is $22,925. The E550, $27,750. If you increase the mileage to 120,000, the CDI begins to approach the E550 resale and is well ahead of the E350.

    There is no doubt in my mind, based upon everything from objective resale values, to experience of friends and colleagues, to what I have heard and read from both mechanics and mechanical engineers, that the current Mercedes Bluetec and BMW diesels are MORE durable and less likely to require major repairs than their gasoline counterparts, especially in high mileage use.

    You are entitled to form your opinions on whatever biases you may have, but I think a bit of actual research may prove them to be incorrect.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,147
    While others post albeit interesting posts on porshe and gms corvette - a few ellps have been announced today. Yep the new Infiniti, MB and Lexus. Just want to make sure we are all in the same chat here.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,584
    Thanks for keeping us on track sweendogy;)

    I saw a pic of a "320i" on BMW's Facebook page. Anybody know what the specs are on that?

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,637
    http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1081637_2013-bmw-320i-entry-level-luxury-star- ting-at-33445

    I'll be at the Detroit Auto show this weekend, I'm hoping they have it there along with the new 320d.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,584
    So have the likes of Dinan & Turner Motorsports started extracting more power from BMW's 2.0 L Turbo 4? Maybe this 320i will be the decontented model enthusiasts want. If the 328i can be chipped, then I'm sure a 320i can as well.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,637
    Dinan works hand in hand with BMW, I would assume as soon as the car hits the shores one will go to them.

    So here is a link for the new Infiniti Q50 has lots of techie stuff, so far they only talk about the V6 and Hybrid...

    http://www.infinitiusa.com/all-new-q50/?next=Home_Page.PFA.Button.Q50_Micro
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,238
    FN...thanks for the links. Have to see the 'vette in person, but on paper, it looks really good. Plus, they've given it some nice performance updates...even the base model.

    Diesels just don't sell in this country. Lots of reasons for that....some valid...some not. Again, with the advancements in gasoline power, and hybrid technology (as well as electric cars) I don't think diesels will be anything but a niche, at best, here.
  • roho1roho1 Posts: 317
    clicked on the design video and I thought it was a Lexus coming at me. Sure looks like a clone of sorts of the Lexus spindle front end.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,637
    Is in full swing and the car that are being shown, are amazing. I'm leaving for Detroit Thursday night can't wait to see some of these cars in person. SO far my schedule will allow me to be at the New York Auto show in April I just hope it is a little warmer then it is currently...
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,637
    Diesels just don't sell in this country. Lots of reasons for that....some valid...some not. Again, with the advancements in gasoline power, and hybrid technology (as well as electric cars) I don't think diesels will be anything but a niche, at best, here.

    I think this is slowly changing, VW sells every single diesel they import, same for Audi and MB. With the new wave of diesel coming in more mainstream cars this is what it might take to change people thoughts.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,147
    Agree with flight- had a buddy in mass who had to go to Detroit to get a golf vw- couldn't find one on the east coast.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 394
    I agree at the moment it is the self fullfilling prophesy, Americans won't buy diesels ( hatchbacks, wagons, manuals etc) so we won't bring them here, thus nobody buys them because they aren't available, meaning that no one else brings them. I think there is a market for diesel's ( and the rest) if only they will bring them, VW and the rest of the Germans seem to be doing okay with them, we will see what happens with the other diesels that are said to be coming, if the sell more will follow.
    Like I said in an earlier post I think you could get up to 25% of the market being diesel, another 25% or so hybrid, maybe 40% gas, and 10% other in the near future, with the other percentage growing in the long term, with gas engines being the loosing group, diesel may get higher if they can get an economical bio diesel out, Natural gas may get some ( but I think it is better used for ther things, the market may disagree) electric will get some and will increase as range increases and charging stations appear along at least the highways, hydrogen may come if they can figure out how to produce it cheaply enough, and using less energy to get it than it gives, and who knows what else could happen, or the worst could happen and there won't be any personal transportation for normal people.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,147
    I would choose cold fusion or the flux capacitor.
    In a cheap Eco car diesels or hybrids work if they can bot for similar dollars and save mucho dollars in gas. That's why they work in Europe - things change- look at ford selling all those V6 full size pick up trucks .
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,637
    So again, why does VW, Audi and MB sell every single diesel they import? Now granted we are talking 50-60K units a year.. What is interesting though, VW.Audi and MB do not do a real mega advertising blitz on them either and they sell every single one.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,637
    According to my BMW dealership you can order a 320i starting in Feb with a March del date. You can build one on BMW website, I believe they have done it right, both Auto and Manuel are no charge, Limited colors and interior, limited options, one can be had for under 40K that is almost fully loaded. Would be interesting to see what Dinan can do with the engine, 180hp is OK, but 240 is even nicer...

    Now in regards to the wagon, my dealer tells me that the wagon will not be imported, however, it is on BMW USA website. I'll find out myself Sat when I'm at the Detroit Auto Show.

    I'm in the planning stage of going to the NY Auto show, and one in the NY area planning on going? would be nice to go through it with other car enthusiast...
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    edited January 2013
    I would believe the website, not the dealer on the wagon. It is clearly in "Future Vehicles" tab, not "concepts". I think there will also be 3-series GT coming to the US, as well. I love my wagon so much, I'd not get the new one, but if they sell 335i GT with manual, that's the one I could consider buying instead of my wagon. I think 335i is likely, just as 5-series GT is only sold in higher output engine versions (535 and 550). Manual - that may or may not come. If they keep it in line with rest of 335 offerings, it should be available, but no saying for sure.

    320i - that's news to me. I got to check it out. Not that I'd buy, but it is curious. It basically means they think the market is ready for low-powered BMW.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    Wow, the pricing on F30 is simply outrageous.

    I optioned 320i to "dino's minimum": red (metallic), sports and premium package and split fold down back seats (must - THEY ARE STILL $500 OPTION :mad: :mad: :cry: ) and you fly by 40 grand on the sticker (around $41K). No sunroof yet (another grand). Add that, Navigation, xenons, anti theft, BMW Assist to roughly match my E90 wagon you get over $45K on the sticker, just about thousand less than my wagon's sticker (and that's "new" car, so don't expect big discounts). And that is for 50 hp less, four cylinder (rather than 6), no automatic headlight, no homelink, less metal, they want just about the same price.

    Granted, my wagon was last year of the platform, leather was "free", but still. Just amazing what some people think their product is worth. I'm pretty sure the market will verify some of that pricing wishful thinking. Can only imagine those lease deals.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,328
    dammit!
    I really thought you guys were talking about a 320 diesel. :cry:

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

  • michaellnomichaellno Posts: 4,300
    Holy cow! When I did the "build your own" for the 320xi, it came to a few bucks shy of $40K!

    Cannot get the cold weather package w/o getting leather, it seems.

    Wonder if BMW would consider putting in the 180HP turbo 4 into the 1-series?
  • Probably Sween, its right in his backyard ( the NYC Auto Show).
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