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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,162
    I'll be at the ny auto show as well- need to check out the new Infiniti- prob get mine ordered while I'm there . They have a tasty 5 guys near there - we can meet up.

    On the BMW 320 - if it's over 40k it's official BMW has jumped the shark. Why not just get a tsx wagon and call it a day.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,162
    I'll be at the ny auto show as well- need to check out the new Infiniti- prob get mine ordered while I'm there . They have a tasty 5 guys near there - we can meet up. I'm going on the Sunday.

    On the BMW 320 wagon-iif it's over 40k it's official BMW has jumped the shark. Why not just get a tsx wagon and call it a day.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,506
    The wagon will still be sold as 328i, I believe. I may be wrong about that, though.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,506
    edited January 2013
    I looked closer and it seems it's getting stranger by a minute. 320i uses 2 liter turbo with 180 hp @5000 rpm. 328i uses same 2 liter turbo with 240 hp @5000-6000 rpm. That's 70 hp from same displacement. The spec page shows torque of 184 lb-ft (320) vs. 255 lb-ft (328) as similar revolution range. Those are big differences. Acceleration 0-60 is 7.1 sec vs. 5.8 sec, but I bet it looks completely different for 50-80 mph, which is much better measure of driving experience (European magazines test this), basically showing passing ability and strength against wind resistance.

    So unless the gas mileage gain is trully significant, I see this trim failing miserably. I suspect they introduced it only to get better CAFE and to justify even more price hikes on 328 and 335.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,877
    320i uses 2 liter turbo with 180 hp 5000 rpm. 328i uses same 2 liter turbo with 240 hp 5000-6000 rpm

    Same engine, different tuning.

    I suspect they introduced it only to get better CAFE and to justify even more price hikes on 328 and 335.

    I think they are introducing this trim in order to increase the selling/leasing price of the 328 and to increase unit sales for bragging rights.

    One can lease the 328i today at $369. Let's say the 320i leases at $349. Then it gives BMW the room to move the 328i to $399 a month while still offering the frugal buyers the 320i for $50 a month less.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,506
    I know, it is the tuning. But it seems to me, such move will be justifiable, if fuel economy gains are substantial. So far, they are "TBD".

    I'not a lease buyer (not that I'm against them, just never found one I liked, as wagons don't have same level of subsidy as sedans), so I can't comment if $50 per month is ther right level. Leases can be done at almost any payment level, what counts for me is the sticker and street price. Loaded 320i at 45 grand, almost as much as my E90 328 was, is jumping the shark.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,877
    Loaded 320i at 45 grand, almost as much as my E90 328 was, is jumping the shark.

    If you tick any boxes on any BMW, the prices become ridiculous. $50K + for a 335? Ridiculous IMHO.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,687
    Tick a fair share of option boxes & a 335 quickly approaches the mid - upper $50K price tag.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,162
    edited January 2013
    Yeah it's official - it's jumped the shark- BMW 3 series no longer Ellps -hosts please remove it from the right hand column and add another acura.

    Lets throw another low lease deal to say affordable to the leasing mass- throw us some "free" wiper blades and a couple of oil changes. Sure its underpowered and has pleather seats, its a bmw. I've been saying it for years bmw makes great drivers cars but they are not cheap- sure they might be the enthusiast choice but for 9/10ths you can save 20% and get a comp car with better technology and more hp. so are you really getting a better car ?
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,687
    Buying out my E90 at the end of it's lease seem like a better & better idea;)

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 394
    Partly it is lack of competition, and partly it is because they are some of the best cars in their classes for fuel economy, and I think I am responding even though your comments are probably for Dino. I am a diesel supporter and think the market has been suppressed, I think that if there were more offerings we would probably have around 20-25% of the market being diesel, therefor the current 2% is unrepresentative.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    sure they might be the enthusiast choice but for 9/10ths you can save 20% and get a comp car with better technology and more hp. so are you really getting a better car ?

    That's the "better" question that should really have a "for you" attatched to the end, since everyone has their own priorities and preferences. I could cancel my 2014 Cayman S order and get 40% more horsepower for $20k less in a new Corvette. Does that make it "better"? Not for me. The Corvette design, albeit improved, still looks like it has to many legacy Pontiac designers trying to get their two cents into it. And I don't need to spend anything for a car that I don't like to look at.

    You are an Infiniti G guy - I would have liked to join your camp back in 2004, having had a great 150k experience with my 1995 Nissan Maxima SE. But I was disappointed in the lack of refinement in the Infiniti G35 sedan vs. the TL 6-speed. I had to make the tough compromise of going with a FWD car, but given that it was/has been a daily driver and we have a second home in the snow belt, I accepted the trade off. I certainly respect those that go the other way, and the G37S 6-speed is a damn nice car, but is still just a perplexing notch away from the engine and transmission refinement that I think Infiniti is capable of.

    Also, let's not forget that Japanese horses are a bit more of the Shetland style than Germany's Clydesdales. The former 335i (haven't driven the new one with a stick), was still the quickest ELLPS on the market, in spite of a 30+/- rated horsepower disadvantage to Infiniti. And as quick as the 450hp/450 ft.lb Corvette is likely to be, I still doubt it will significantly outrun the 911S in spite of a 50hp/125ft lb advantage on paper.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,506
    Sween, I'm afraid the competition will keep up (in terms of pricing). Everything is getting more expensive. Loaded Ford Focus is getting close to 30 grand on the sticker, same goes for many other compacts, loaded Accord crosses 30 grand in a snap, Lexus raised the sticker for its hatchback hybrid by three grand or so without clear increase in its content (don't know too much about this vehicle to say, but saw a headline), so why wouldn't BMW want to charge 40+ grand for its detuned entry level 3-series with couple of options? I bet Infinity will soon come up dreadful with G25 replacement, which will be opportunity to "reset" pricing for it and G37. Even Acura with its traditional value approach, made a move down, but mostly by rebadging and redressing Civic, which I would hardly call an attractive ELLPS. However, ILX is an opportunity to move prices on next TSX up (provided they will they keep the car, I sure hope so).

    Everything is getting more expensive. We all have to deal with it. Price limits set 10 years ago no longer apply.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,506
    Told you so year ago, didn't I? ;)

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    $63k for a 414hp 8,400 rpm M3 coupe is beginning to look like real bargain.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,643
    Sween, I'm afraid the competition will keep up (in terms of pricing). Everything is getting more expensive. Loaded Ford Focus is getting close to 30 grand on the sticker

    Bingo.... Mark my words, Dinan will have a reflash for the 320i, and it will keep the factory warranty. So a 320i for less then 40K and have the same performance as a 328i, is a good thing.

    The new Wagon, will be an excellent value, with the diesel engine.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Flight,

    You conveniently avoided my previous post with an excerpt from Dinan's own website that forewarned that, essentially, there is no free lunch and "reflashing" will result in greater engine stress and wear. Go back to my previous post for the direct quote or read through their homepage.

    And Dinan's willingness to match BMW's 4/50 engine warranty is not much consolation when modern engines should easily last 150k+ miles. Hell, I could probably do fine over the next month or two having a 5 hour energy drink for breakfast, lunch and dinner. But I don't think that would be a wise long term solution to just eating right and getting exercise.

    I don't know the percentage of daily driving 3-series buyers that go to their local Dinan store for a pick me up to try to turn their 328's into 335's and their 335's into M3's. But my guess is the percentage can be counted using less than the fingers on one hand - and a thumb isn't a finger. I do know that the resale value of an everyday BMW that has had the "reflash" or other engine modifications is significantly reduced. And I suspect that it's not permitted in a lease. It certainly will never qualify for a BMW CPO warranty.

    So the idea of reflashing a 320 might be an option for you and a handful of your buddies, but that's really not comparing factory apples to factory apples for 96%+ of the market. Maybe 99%.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,708
    I was checking out the website at the local BMW dealer recently. Some nice 2010s (maybe 11s also?) and the service loaners looked like a particularly good deal.

    I really want one. Someday. I guess 6 years from now when I might be able to buy myself another car, I may be able to afford a 2010!

    I had such a great plan. Get me wife the 2007 X3 I found for a good price, then get me a slightly used 328 for every day duty, and something cheaper for my daughter. Would have been the same price in total of what we ended up getting (3 cars), but I would not be stuck with the cheap old one!

    she just got hung up on having to have a brand new car.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (daughter stole that one), and 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again)

  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,651
    Stickguy, I resisted the siren call of BMWs for most of my adult life because new ones always seem just a bit too expensive. I passed up on the 2002s, 320is and the wonderful E90s until one fine day I stopped in at a BMW reseller near my office and priced second-hand E39s.

    I ended up getting a 4 y/o 2000 328ia for about half the original MSRP. I've put 100,000 miles on it in the eight years since and it still looks and runs great. That strategy was so successful that I decided last winter to get a 2001 330Ci Cabrio to serve as my winter ride while I'm in Arizona for the cold months. This particular car had just under 80K on it and cost about what a new Focus would. It has given me no problems at all thus far.

    BMWs have a pretty steep depreciation curve. Why not take advantage of the fact that so many of them are leased (with strict limits on yearly mileage)
    and grab a lightly used one.

    Buying used is the best way to enjoy Bimmers IMO.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,643
    Simple you have the money to spread around multi dealership trying to decided what you want to buy, we all get that. There are people who can not, so that is why turner companies are out there and have done very well. Dinan works with BMW, anytime Dinan does any work, whether it is stage 1 suspension kit or supercharger kit, the VIN # is sent to BMW. The failure rate for Dinan engine work is very low, about the same as BMW themselves. So having an Dinan or just go to your local BMW dealer and buy a B7 from ALPINA. Turners today are the what they were 20 years ago, I would only work with turners who have a working relationship with the manufacture, i.e Dinan.

    So I understand you don't like tuners, that is fine, others do. There are many guys on Bimmerfest who would tell something else, I just love watching the videos they post of 335i's playing with 911S on the freeway and the 911 guys doesn't get it... A couple of guys have 90K on their 335i that are making 440hp RWHP they have been from day one of ownership (original owners.) havn't had any major engine problems.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,162
    Funny but a loaded ford focus could have a boatload more tech then a 180 hp BMW- and also be cheaper and very close in performance -

    Shark has been jumped -
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited January 2013
    I didn't disagree that Dinan is one of the best, most reputable tuners around. And they can be a relatively good bang for the buck in performance. I simply restated what they stated on their website: asking more out of a smaller engine will besult in more engine wear. So my take is that somebody that is very performance minded, goes to the track on occasion or regularly and doesn't care about shaving some life off the second 100,000 miles on the engine, the Dinan option is a viable one. But for those that are counting on the car being a daily driver for 8-10 years and do not want to take the risk of Dian's admittedly increased engine wear, might think twice.

    I have a friend who took his 996 Turbo to over 600hp/650 ft lbs at the wheels through a Porsche approved tuner as well. The car has been timed at under 10 seconds in the quarter mile, putting him a few tenths and a couple million dollars ahead of a Bugatti Veyron, so yes, I understand the economics. I just still don't see you acknowledging the increased engine wear factor - whether or not that is of importance to you, it will be to many.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,708
    oh, if I get one, it for sure will be used.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (daughter stole that one), and 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again)

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,687
    You had to say "I told you so?" :P

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,687
    You probably could have sold your wife on that used X3, if she didn't test drive her RDX.

    I've never bought used before (for a daily driver/primary car), but if my next ride is a BMW (whether I buy out my lease at the end or buy a lower mileage E90), I'm going to dip into the used market.

    I LOVE my 328xi! It is truly a fantastic car that suits my needs perfectly.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,370
    If I buy a coupe, I can go as late as 2012 on a BMW, and still get the straight six.... So.... buy one of those in 2016 and drive it for six years... that gets me to 64 yrs old...

    So, I'm not worried about the 4-cyl turbos..... :blush:

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    That's the way to look at it!

    Sad though...the public doesn't care, but the I-6 will be missed by enthusiasts forever. Just like the 993 is the last great Porsche 911, someday the E90/92 will be considered the last great 3 series.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Sad though...the public doesn't care, but the I-6 will be missed by enthusiasts forever. Just like the 993 is the last great Porsche 911, someday the E90/92 will be considered the last great 3 series.

    You sound a bit like the BMW track instructors I met when I picked up our X5d at the Performance Delivery Center in Spartanburg. They are not looking forward to the new M3, twin/triple/quadruple turbo 6, more power and better mpg notwithstanding. There is something about the visceral feel of an 8,400 rpm naturally aspirated V8 that they don't want to see lost. They view the M5 similarly.

    Like the fans said when Johnny Damon left Boston for New York. No beard, no hair, no soul. Still a great ballplayer, but not the same.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,708
    I might have had her on the X3, but she really wanted new and the one we saw had some scratches on the interior console or some such. Nitpicking, but she really wanted brand new. She also noted that it had about the same miles as her Odyssey, so what was the point? The point of course was I could get a slightly used 3 series too, but that was not for her!

    and if I get used in the next few years, it would be a 6 cyl. especially from what I have read about the start/stop feature.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (daughter stole that one), and 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again)

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,275
    kyfdx....I've got a cherry '11 335 ix Coupe with the Performance Pack. It has your name written all over it, if you can wait 18 months-2 years.

    Fact is, looking at the reports from the various car shows, there's not one thing I'd want (well maybe the '14 'vette, or the BMW 4 series) instead of the vehicles already in my garage.

    Even the newer models coming out leave me cold. Infiniti needs a big shot of refinement. Cadillac needs to dump their CUE system. I'll hold judgement on Acura until they unveil the new TLX).
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