Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

1501502504506507593

Comments

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,688
    Dino I think we are getting away from the original post that you stated, to something about not being able to find a base model on the lot. The price of $37,055 is really a base model with one thing added which is a aftermarket nav system, that integrates with the radio, just like the OEM nav system. It's a pretty slick system, so with the base price + shipping the car is $36,255, then add the nav system $800, this is how you get the $37,055 price. So it is possible to get a base C250, and the dealer I posted has many of them.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,688
    I know AWD isn't necessary in Texas, but I think it will be fun.

    How will it be fun?
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,688
    I've had AWD, FWD and RWD and IMO most of the fun to be had with AWD is when driving in snow. For dry weather fun nothing beats a good RWD car.

    Yeah, but it doesn't snow in San Antonio...
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,549
    I'm an options fool, too. I don't buy those over the top stuff (like adaptive cruise control or lane departure thing) unless it is part of a discounted package. I am complete agnostic of wheels (never really understood why people care so much) and often would even prefer smaller rims, as they gove you more comfort, plus those really low profile tires look just stupid, IMHO. However, I want most items related to convenience, safety and sports suspension. I would not touch 3-series without their sports seat (their std. seats are terrible), I a fool for xenons and trully like the swiveling aspect of them. I'm a fool for a sunroof, fortunately it was standard on my wagon (and bigger, too). Parking sensors, keyless entry/start - yes please, especially that it was offered in one big package with two or three other things. Navigation - first I didn't want it, then they dropped the price by about $600 (they actually dropped the price of premium package, when it was combined with nav), so I took it. I like the screen, I like the routing, I despise the POI search (totally subpar in comparison to Garmin). Voice control came with it, doesn't work very well, especially in addresses (1 out of 5).

    I don't need all the appearance stuff, but I appreciate them. I opted out of M-package, but there are times I look back and second guess it. I saw a M-pack 328 wagon same color and year on a picture and it looked even better than mine. Don't know if it was 2 grand better, but it was better.

    Yeah, I'm a fool.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,549
    edited February 2013
    Dino I think we are getting away from the original post that you stated, to something about not being able to find a base model on the lot

    I did not say that at all, or to be precise, don't have recollection of that being my intention. My original post was in reference to leather vs. MBTex. I believed you stated you can have a leather C250 for $37K, quoting some Phoenix dealer and I responded that it was impossible cause you can't have leather without crossing 40 grand. We must have misunderstood each other.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,549
    I had '03 WRX and later '08 STI. I live in Florida, similar to Tx. I loved them. The fun is on ramps, tight corners. The neutral feel in the middle of the turn and "forgiving" nature is unbeatable. The 03 WRX didn't have traction control, but I never needed it, even in big rain, even when tires got a bit worned out. It gave me plenty of warning and self correction just by easing on throttle. I have a RWD 328 now. I love it, too. It is different, but it is not as neutral, especially on corner entries. I love to hit the throttle half way through the turn, but it is classic "slow in/fast out" scheme. AWD gives you ability to come in too fast and still correct in the middle, keep the control and come out of the turn in decent terms.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,688
    You are correct and I'm sorry, it was Billperksii who wrote that no one would find a base car on the lot..
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,688
    I also assumed it was the "internet" price too which it wasn't it is a base care with an aftermarket Nav system that was designed for C230 and other MB for 2013.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,549
    Understood. If anything, I see the similar trend in stock of my local dealership. Vast majority of C250s they have there are low-option level between 37 and 40 grand MSRP. Moreover, there is very little stock of C300 or C350 lines. If you are an options fool (like I am), you would actually have a hard time to find C250 with the goodies. Very few cars with leather (MBTex seems to rule there), sports pack, some have premium pack, but unlike BMW, Benz charges for leather on top of premium pack.

    I woulnd't buy one anyway, but it is interesting to see what dealers think sells. It appears to me that BMW dealers tend to have better variety of options (from strippers to fully optioned), perhaps not at all times, but it is easier to find content level (and price) closer to anyone's preference (except for manual transmissions - those were non-existent in Tampa Bay last time I checked), which means they anticipate customers for every level of content, whereas Benz dealers seem to think people want the the star on the hood, but don't really care for the extras. But as I wrote in the past, there are some particular practices on both lots that are beyond me (like those fold-down seats on 3-series sedans, available as stand alone or part of cold weather pack and since Florida cars don't need cold pack, almost none of the ordered sedans get fold-down seats :mad: ).

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,549
    No, I'm almost sure those are all MSRPs. The math and pictures seem to support it (standard wheels, standard seats, standard interior). You get to 37-39K levels when you take bare bones and add couple of small options (metallic paint, some accessories, etc.), or one package (like premium for 2500).

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,189
    Talking about pricing and packaging - most chatter I've ever seen about this rig on these channels- no one is talking about what you really get with this 37k MB- a weak engine and sub group performance - I guess you do get the keys with the star on it - you get to walk into a dealership with 100k cars around. I still can't wrap my head around German premium car companies charging for leather on any car.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,549
    I feel your pain, brother ;)

    They charge because they can. If they couldn't, they wouldn't. BMW had no charge for leather in last couple of years of E9x sedans and wagons - not because they were so nice, but because they couldn't charge and still get target sales. F30 came and extra charge for leather is back. :(

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,535
    dino....I always seem to look at Benzes when I'm in the market. That's about as far as I get given they really aren't all that sporty of a drive (until you get into the really high buck AMG versions). And, I try to understand the allure of them.

    Perhaps I'm only looking at the "run of the mill" MBs like the Cs and Es. I just can't make that leap. They aren't built any better than a comparable Audi or BMW. They certainly don't perform better than either of those. And, these days, not even the Japanese can claim tech or reliability superiority over Audi or BMW.

    For the same, usually less money, you can get something that's better, in most ways, from BMW or Audi.

    I'll have to assume that pushing the Mercedes marque down the ladder with the CLA is taking a page out of GM's marketing book. "Hook them on a low priced Chevy (in Mercedes' case, a CLA), and move them up the model ladder".

    That Mercedes Star, at that price point, is going to open up their market to perhaps one that they wouldn't necessarily want.

    Hope to see the CLA at the auto shows. At least on my computer monitor, it looks pretty slick. But, so does a BMW 1 series or an A3, its competition.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,688
    I'll have to assume that pushing the Mercedes marque down the ladder with the CLA is taking a page out of GM's marketing book. "Hook them on a low priced Chevy (in Mercedes' case, a CLA), and move them up the model ladder".

    Aren't BMW and Audi doing the same thing with the 1 series and A3 ? Acura is doing it with the ILX too.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,535
    FN.....good point. I guess the lux marks see gold to be mined where Accords and Camry sometimes play.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,189
    Camry and accord comment - true pricing might be the same- but again how can we call these cars Elpps- they don't offer much lux in standard form and performance is less then the mentioned accord.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,688
    This is a great question, so would you buy a Acura ILX or a fully loaded Camry?
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,688
    Sweeny the typical buyer will not understand what ELLPS means and they really do not care. Most buyers buy by monthly payment, and if they can afford a Camry XLE with all the bells and dodad's then they will buy it. Why do you think that most dealership bring out that "worksheet" and ask you what you want to spend a month.

    Car segments are changing, and some cars in which YOU do not think fit in the traditional ELLPS, but they do. It will be interesting in the next 3-5 yrs what will be considered ELLPS.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,535
    edited February 2013
    FN.....I can't even remember the last time I drove a Camry....at least 2-3 generations ago. And, I've never driven an ILX. So, not sure if I can answer your question.

    Would I look at them? Sure! But, as most of us here are, I'm a car fanatic. I'm interested in all cars.

    Generally speaking, the customer for a Camry probably wouldn't consider any Mercedes for no other reason than they think maintenance and repairs are too costly and frequent. That perception can be debated. But, perception is reality in most people's minds.

    I know the 2 years I've owned my 335i, I haven't spent one nickel on maintenance due to BMW's 4 year "no maintenance cost" plan. The GF got a 4 year maintenance plan for the S4 where everything is covered. That was extra cost, and I can't remember what it was. When she asked me about it, it seemed reasonable at the time so it wasn't anything extraordinary.

    I've had the BMW in once for warranty work. The driver's leather seat had an area that was discoloring. They didn't re-dye it. They actually replaced the entire seat cover. Aside from oil changes and I think a software update they did for IDrive the last time I had the oil changed, that's been in.

    The GF's S4 has only had an oil change and tire rotation. That's it.

    Will a Camry be the same? They have a reputation as being trouble free. But, it sure seems like I read about a whole lot more recalls the last couple of years regarding Toyotas, than I hear from Benz, Audi, BMW or Acura.

    I don't pay much attention to Lexus or Infiniti. So, I don't know if an inordinate amount of recalls extend to those brands or not.

    I see the CLA's customer as being a young (20s) person not really looking for performance. But, one who's looking for an entre into the German marks and the alleged status they bring to the table (whether that status is real, or imagined).

    For a little bit more than a Camry, they can have a Mercedes, regardless of whether a CLA is or is not the better performing car.

    Something tells me you're going to see dealers back load those cars with the crazy wheels, spoilers, etc that make most of us cringe. But, that's the type of customer the CLA will appeal to. Dealers better get ready for a whole new type of tire kickers entering their showrooms once the CLA is released.

    Personally, I like the looks of the CLA. That might change when I see one in person. But, given that I put a higher priority on overall performance with my lux, I doubt I'll consider a CLA as something that would sit in my garage.

    I'm betting a Camry SE with a V6 will out handle and out accelerate a CLA. Yet, they won't be cross shopped by that same 20 something.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,688
    Graphic, I believe the CLA will get the AMG treatment, which will give it some performance. I agree that the CLA will bring a whole new type of customer to MB, just like GT-R brought a whole different buyer to the Nissan Dealer. Lots of changes happening and it will be interesting to see how the dealers will change.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 15,639
    the real question though is if the CLA will be grounded to the ground.

    2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4i Limited Tech (mine), 2013 Acura RDX (wife's) and 2007 Volvo S40 (daughters college car)

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,535
    the real question though is if the CLA will be grounded to the ground.

    Love it....made me grin, stickguy. :D

    FN...Be real interesting to see how the CLA dealers handle the onslaught of the "hat backwards" crowd.

    I saw one of the funniest sights I can reacall in quite some time. Saw an older Altima last night with what looked to be cheapo LCDs haphazardly strewn in the headlight casing. I let him get in front of me, and sure enough, he had LCDs in each headrest, playing some video, but no one was in the back seat to see it.

    That always makes me chuckle.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,189
    "hat backwards crowd?" - how they are handled by the dealers...throw in the Altima story and we have a red flag.

    I think they will do just fine "accepting" this crowd. Do all German cars some with a snob option or is that extra- like the premium paint?
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,688
    I saw one of the funniest sights I can reacall in quite some time. Saw an older Altima last night with what looked to be cheapo LCDs haphazardly strewn in the headlight casing. I let him get in front of me, and sure enough, he had LCDs in each headrest, playing some video, but no one was in the back seat to see it.

    Was the car plated from Jersey?

    I believe the "turn around hat" crowd already shops at the german auto makers, in SoCal, many of the younger drivers are already driving newer german cars. I don't think it is much of a difference who goes into the dealerships, stereotyping will get one in trouble and no one wants to lose a sale,.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,047
    Sorry, but just because a car has leather, some bells and whistles and MSRPs at the very low end of the ELLPS price range does not put it in a luxury category nor does it put it in a performance category. I don't believe anybody that buys a Fusion, Camry, Accord or Passat with a V6 and leather believe they are bying a luxury car just because the price overlaps the bottom of the ELLPS. They just know they are getting all the NAV, big sound, leather etc and realize if they wanted all that in a real luxury car they would be paying north of $40k, not north of $30k. +
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,688
    edited February 2013
    So what is the "official" definition that _we_ must follow M6 of what is a ELLPS? Are you the grand Car Czar to tell us what models are and are not ELLPS? Or are the manufactures the one who do it?
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,047
    No need to get your shorts in a twist. I absolutely am not saying I make the decisions. I kind of think the list at the top of this page does a decent job based on real data which I believe is based on consumer feedback and NOT on someones arbitrary opinion. I'm just saying that non-luxury makes don't pretend to be luxury so why should we put them in that category just because the top of line in their bread and butter cars cross slightly over into the absloute bottom of the ELLPS prices. Toyota makes the Lexus and calls it their luxury car and provides the warranty, service, dealership experience to go along with it. They don't market the Camry as luxury....they market it as value.

    If you can't tell a Camry from a luxury, performance sedan just by sight, feel and drive than you really should buy the Camry and save some money as you will not appreciate the difference.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,744
    I saw my first Caddy ATS (outside of an Auto Show). IMO it's the best looking car they make. This one was Metallic Pearl White (a color that does not favor most cars).

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,189
    edited February 2013
    Pretty cool from the pix I've seen I like as well with big wheels- also think (and seen) the largest caddy, forgot the name- is a looker as well.

    Flight I did not say its the quickest to 60, said I liked the looks - so you can correctly quote that.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,688
    Interesting I would place the Hyundai Genesis V8 is the category that you are saying. Hyundai is a Econ brand car company, however, owning one now for a while, I can tell you it is ever bit a luxury car. It's not a ELLPS, I would classify it as a ELLC (Entery Level Luxury Car.) It doesn't have the refinement of a E class however (but pretty darn close), the price difference is $25K too.

    Isn't perception part of this equation? Look at the first and second generation Lexus ES, just a over the top Camry, however, Lexus couldn't get them on the lots....
Sign In or Register to comment.