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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,954
    Because his two neighbors didn't think to do it so he extrapulates that out to the entire U.S. population and considers it fact as usual.

    I always look at similar models from the luxury brand versus mainstream brand. Sometimes, depending on inventory or market trends you can actually buy the luxury brand for almost the same price. Case in point was when my wife wanted a SUV and she had decided on a Pathfinder. I knew the QX4 was virtually the same thing but much nicer outfitted and was going away. We made a killer deal on the QX4 that was actually less than we could have bought the Pathfinder for.

    I'm sure there are plenty of people that look at loaded Camrys versus ES, or Accord vs. TSX or even TL, or Fusion vs MKZ. Sometimes you can move up to the luxury division for very little money and have a better warranty, dealer experience, etc. Obviously, this won't always work but it's worth the effort to look. Ergo.....cross shopping.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,111
    Haha guess I was looking more then a neighbor and his one tsx experience.
    If I was looking at Lincoln or even the new Jx Infiniti I def would look at the ford and the pathfinder, why not ?
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,600
    Sweeny, really you have no idea why they have different buyers. Basically the difference between Honda and Acura is that Acura is the upscale division or builder of luxury cars and Honda is builder of economy cars. Having the middle class buyer isn't looking at the Accord and TXS. Now if you can show me I am wrong, direct me to the data.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,600
    Because his two neighbors didn't think to do it so he extrapulates that out to the entire U.S. population and considers it fact as usual.

    Well lets get the facts correct, they weren't neighbors, they were friends. They are the typical US buyer, they are not car enthuses. They do not understand the differences between a pathfinder and the now defunct QX4. What I think is interesting is, how you and sweeny try and use YOUR car buying experience and say that is the norm for car buyers.

    Why do car magazines, only test Accords, Camry's, Altima, Malibus, Focus's and not add TSX, MKZ, ES350?
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,111
    edited February 2013
    You are right - I don't know why - that's why I asked the question, which you were quick to answer with "because they don't" then you backed up that insight with your friend didn't cross shop it - and that was presented as fact. I don't have the data because - thus i asked the question- if I knew what the answer was I would not ask the question.

    You answered ". Basically the difference between Honda and Acura is that Acura is the upscale division or builder of luxury cars and Honda is builder of economy cars. Having the middle class buyer isn't looking at the Accord and TXS."

    Why would honda offer a touring edition of that same accord that starts at 33400 buxs? Does that sound like economy? It's more then the tsx- :surprise:

    You and "backwards hat" guy (btw hes been mia)should read a magazine post 1995- new world.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,954
    Too funny. All we are saying is that some people do crossshop like that based on our experience in response to your huge survey of a couple of friends and coming up with a definitive statement that nobody does.

    I don't think being an "auto enthusiustt" puts anyone in a special category. Even people that don't live cars have brains and can recognise value.

    I never even insinuated that most people crossshop those kinds of cars but I know that a lot do. It's silly to assume that just because a couple of friends don't do something that eveyone else in the country doesn't either. If you would say something like "IMO I don't think most people shop for cars that way based on a few of friends buying habits". Then it's clear you really don't know but you have an opnion. But, you rarely do that. You just make definitive statements based on huge assumptions.

    I would agree that most people probably don't crossshop that way and that is one of the reasons that the car mags test cars that are recognised to be in the same category. However, I think another big reason is that car companies don't want their cars compared to economy cars or luxury cars respectively so that is probably one of the conditions that the car companies have when loaning a car for a comparo. In fact, I just read somewhere where Lincoln wouldn't provide a MKZ because the mag wanted to use it in a comparo with some mainstream cars. I read a lot of car sites so I just can't remember where I read that recently.

    If you frequented a lot of the other Edmunds forums or owners forums of mainstream cars you would realize that a lot of people are comparing a Camry to ES etc.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,744
    Sweeny, really you have no idea why they have different buyers. Basically the difference between Honda and Acura is that Acura is the upscale division or builder of luxury cars and Honda is builder of economy cars. Having the middle class buyer isn't looking at the Accord and TXS. Now if you can show me I am wrong, direct me to the data.

    I'll jump in here. It's kind of silly to pretend that every buyer is the same. I know when I was looking at more compact premium sedans a number of years back, I looked at the Passat and the Audi A4. I also looked at the Accord, TL, and TSX a number of years ago. Some people who are very badge conscious won't do that. Others will not care about a badge as long as a vehicle has what they want. And what they want has a lot of variation, too.

    Some people look at ELLPS for the "L"; some look more for the "P". Depending upon which factors are important, cross-shopping with the more "plebian" brands may or may not occur.

    What I suspect is true is that there are *fewer* people who will cross shop. But not nobody. And any of us who pretends we know that percentage is just guessing.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,477
    There may not be a large overlap in Acura vs Honda buyers, but as long as prices overlap, there will be. Some people look at what they can spend first and then they have large flexibility on what they can buy. I'm one of those. O don't look at brands, or labels, I look at what's there. When I was buying my '03 WRX, I cross shoped it with Passat wagon. According to your creed I shouldn't be allowed because they're different cars addressed to different people - I don't care. When it's time for my 328 to go, my next car may be anything between Ford Focus and 5-series. Am I allowed to shop like that?

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • I feel you and yr smart to recognize it! It's the only way for Mercedes to compete with lexus, and Acura! A Kia has way more features!
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,071
    edited February 2013
    Here is a perspective -- I have no proof that this is any more than an anecdote. I suspect, however, the following perspective probably is a data point, therefore of some statistical significance.

    For years I was a brand shopper -- the brand I chose was Audi. Even during the "Audi years," I did, from time to time, shop BMW's. Even when I could see a difference in the cars, I would always factor in a characteristice "for the money." For some time Audi A4's or A6's offered more content for the same money or less money for similar content (compared to the BMW 3 or 5 series).

    Note: all but two of my cars for a period of time were obtained via a 36 month lease.

    When looking at cars based on lease payments, I have found -- even within the past 3 years -- that Premium cars generally have lower lease payments than their down-scale cousins and non-cousins.

    My assumptions why this is so have to do with residual values (which, as we know when they are high tend to reduce monthly payments) and manufacturer's "support" (subventing.)
    Additionally, there are times that the Premium cars are more sharply discounted off MSRP, which also tends to lower lease payments.

    If, for instance, a Honda was shopped against a "similar" Acura (in the eye of the beholder and for purposes of this example) the Acura typically cost "about the same" as the Honda -- and at times (during the calendar end of year sales season) it is possible to lease an Acura for less than a Honda.

    Another example, Audi vs VW -- here you'd think VW would not want Audi subvented leases to cannibalize VW sales, but, it happened/happens.

    Were the shopper to cross shop a VW (as an example only) Passat and compare it (based on lease payments) to an A4, it is possible (or has been in recent times) the A4 will cost about the same as the VW and the Audi will be quattro, have an 8-speed auto and be otherwise equally or better contented than the VW.

    I am not saying these cars are comparable, based on Car & Driver, Road & Track or Automobile magazine comparison tests. Typically the Passat will be compared to a Camry or maybe an Avalon or Maxima. Yet, if you wandered into a giant "auto mall" it is not beyond the pale to imagine someone standing in the Infiniti lot which is adjacent to the Nissan lot to wander over the parking lot to look at the "fill in the blank" and make a comparison of the cars without regard (at that moment) for "price" or monthly payment.

    I am driving a 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD Advance with two accessories on it, which pushed to pre-disounted MSRP over $47K (or maybe over $48K). Since I got a 13% discount off of MSRP on the car it was actually $100 less per month and 6 months term less than a slightly less expensive Audi A4, which is what I thought I would end up with.

    Normally, I would never have cross shopped the A4 with the TL (even though it is possible the car magazines might have run comparison.)

    But for 6-months and $100/mo more for the Audi. :surprise: The TL seemed a bargain.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,477
    I see your way of buying, but it's not for me. I NEVER leased and it is not likely I will start any time soon. This may be a function of cars I have bought and continue to like. Subaru doesn't subsidize their leases much (residuals tend to be close to market value, they sometimes lower the money factor), even the 328i I bough last year (wagon) had lease with MF way too high for my taste. After I factored 15K miles/yr I need (perhaps a bit less, but not much), all the extra fees that come with the lease, lease was not even close to be considered. It was something like 5 yr. loan at below 3% or three year lease with extra fees and equivalent MF around 5% (after conversion to interest rate) - and the residual wasn't awesome, either. No can do in my book. If I were getting a sedan or coupe, sure - lower MF would compensate for higher fees.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,111
    Interesting take- thank you. I can def see the reason to go "up" if the price is right. And In the case of the TL vs the A4 we are talking 3600 bux of real dollars on a car you do not even own, assuming a 36mth lease- real money.
  • I leased a 2013 CTS sedan in Dec so far I have been very happy with it I have about 700 miles on it I am still learning about it would due again
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    I am driving a 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD Advance with two accessories on it

    What is your take on what magazine auto testers have been saying about current gen Acura TL steering. They say it has problem on-center. I had a 2012 TL loaner last year, drove it on suburban, interstate, country roads and the steering feel was weird. Not like my older 2004 TL which is very precise, no on-center problems.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,111
    What model? Options ? What's your opinion on the car?
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    edited February 2013
    Note that the oil life indicator is German and is precisely what it says it is. That is, it tells you how much protection the oil has left in it. When it hits 0, it's not time to change it. It's essentially turned into water and you're damaging the engine. (0% protection left)

    Change it when it hits 50% or 6000 miles. Other than that, enjoy the ride. It's a fantastic alternative to a BMW 5 series.
  • Dont know what you call precise but my 2009 awd is precise as they come, most manufacturers are moving away from the hydro to electric.
  • gmcustsvcgmcustsvc Posts: 4,064
    Glad to hear you're enjoying your CTS, tommy42! Let us know if you have any questions about the operation of the vehicle - we're happy to help as much as we can!
    Sarah, GM Customer Service
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,600
    If you frequented a lot of the other Edmunds forums or owners forums of mainstream cars you would realize that a lot of people are comparing a Camry to ES etc.

    Interesting, I wonder if Toyota knows this, if so Toyota could increase the base price of the Camry to be more inline with the ES. Not too sure why the typical Camry LE buyer would be looking at a base Lexus ES, since there is roughly 20K difference in the price of the cars...
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,954
    It's not the "typical Camry LE buyer" that I believe is looking at an ES. It the absolutely loaded Camry V6 XLE buyer that is looking at the almost $34k MSRP. They think maybe they can get in a base ES for similar money but they would have to give up some bells and whistles like NAV, JBL etc. The base ES is $36995. So there is only a $3k difference. I don't imagine a lot of people do it but I know there are some as eveidenced just by the people that have commented here. And $20k difference is quite an exaggeration....it's $13500 diffence between the LE and the ES.

    They may say to themseves..."gee, for $3 grand I can have a Lexus with a longer warranty and nicer dealership experience and a little more luxury feel." That could be tempting if they can swing it. Oh, but they'll have to buy a $100 Garmin though.
  • richw5richw5 Posts: 152
    The engineer involved with the algorithm of the Oil Life Indicator was a poster on the Caddy Info site back around 2002 - 2003. He stated that the Oil Life Indicator has a built in protection factor for the engine once you hit 0% oil life. I change my oil at about 10% oil life left and my CTS has been running great for almost 11 years.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    edited February 2013
    You must be lucky, then, because many many people have had their engines dump their oil into their cat via blown gaskets by waiting until it reads 0. In fact, the official advice (NOW) from the GM dealership mechanics nationwide is to change synthetic oil at 6K miles.

    Yes, there are class action lawsuits pending as well. GM's solution was to reprogram the oil life sensor to be more sensitive, but it really doesn't solve the issue which is that synthetic oil is only good for twice what conventional oil is.

    metal3883, "Cadillac CTS Engine Problems" #604, 11 Dec 2012 5:17 pm
    32 pages long and growing. Oil is so darn cheap versus a new engine that it pays to be cautious especially when it appears that we're being used as Guinea Pigs by GM for using synthetic oils in the new engines.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,111
    Interesting that you would go with the Camry LE as a example- and not the closer top end model that we have been talking about all along- a mainstream car at a price level that would make you think about a jump up- or a lux car like the tsx that would make you look at a accord touring (which is a shade less then tsx tech) and has more features.

    Like the use of 20k - nice but a fail.

    Anyone seen "hat backwards" guy, could be on a road trip in GFs S.
  • Anyone seen "hat backwards" guy, could be on a road trip in GFs S.
    I think he is on these boards everyday.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,111
    Haven't seen him, love that cat
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,600
    If we are talking main stream cars, then the LE is the model to talk about, since the LE outsells any other Camry. Yes, if someone was looking at a top of the line XLE camry then the next jump would be the Avalon and think the base price of the base Avalon is $1K less then a fully loaded XLE. The ES base price is higher then a fully loaded XLE. Lexus err Toyota has done a great marketing job on Lexus, people are willing to pay more for the lexus name. BTW, a fully loaded ES is more than a fully loaded Avalon.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,111
    The point of the agreement as I stated before was price - not specific Toyota model sells the best- I think you know this- if a person is looking at 22k car ofcourse they are not going to step up. - it's also not Lexus specific to Toyota - as stated before.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,458
    While gassing up my 328xi last night, a guy pulls up behind me in an F30 328xi Sport Line. He noticed me checking out his car & I asked him how he liked it. He told me the car was "nice," but "way too soft." He liked the way his old 330Ci coupe drove much better.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,954
    BTW, a fully loaded ES is more than a fully loaded Avalon.

    Wow, what a revelation! A loaded luxury car is more than a loaded non-luxury car. Who would have thought? Gee, I bet a loaded Panamerica is more than a loaded Passat too. Isn't that something.

    I would rather admit I'm wrong than clutch at straws to try to make myself look better. Camry LE because it's the biggest seller? :confuse: Wasn't even remotely close to what we were talking about. We were talking about cross shopping the loaded mainstream against base luxury because of the closeness in price. A Camry LE is not a loaded Camry.

    Bringing in the Avalon actually makes my point even more. A loaded Avalon Limited is almost $4000 more than a base ES. The ES is now based on the Avalon(not the Camry) so it's the same size, drivetrain etc. That is why I said that a lot of people that were looking at loaded mainstream vehicles may crossshop the lower end of the luxury makes. Because they are so close in price and capability.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,477
    What is Panamerica? ;)

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

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