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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • psunowpsunow Posts: 17
    I hope the new BMW drives well cause it sure is ugly...
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Yeah, it's real ugly. :shades
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,353
    When is it coming state-side?

    Regards,
    OW
  • That's the generic one. It's like a PR person wrote it. Or it just wasn't driven.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,393
    Glad you're still with us and haven't been hurt or evacuated by those crazy fires out in your neighborhood.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • nope. some friends lost homes but we're still standing. the fires seem to always make a ring around us.
  • Before everyone bets the farm on the 135 I read an article in Motortrend today that the weight isnt that much different than the 3 series and since it is very small wouldnt have a very large advantage in anything. I think that it was about 200 lbs in difference. I would have thought about 4-500 lbs would have been the difference which would have been more significant.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Most of you have seen the Comparison Test: 2007-2008 Sport Sedans piece, but if you haven't be sure to check it out! Let's go to the Article Comments - Comparison Test: 2007-2008 Sport Sedans topic to continue the discussion. Several recent posts have been moved there.
  • The 335i easily wins that comparo.
  • pmc4pmc4 Posts: 198
    I can't see how the BMW wins that comparison. I mean, to see what the 3-Series really is, just go to Europe, where it's made. What are they in Europe? Are they luxury sedans? Sports sedans? Nope and nope; they're... You guessed it... TAXI'S!
    In fact, the only difference between the Euro-spec BMW and the US-spec BMW is the options list. The Euro-spec BMW 3-Series comes standard with a tachometer, fuel gauge, automatic transmission, vinyl-padded interior surfaces and an engine with six cylinders.

    American-spec BMW 3-Series adds leather, i-drive, and about $25,000 to the sticker price.

    The Cadillac and Infiniti on the other hand are purpose-built, true luxury/sport sedans that are well worth the $$$ printed on the window sticker: They're roomy, comfortable, leather-lined (the BMW uses vinyl padding-not leather. Think 1970's naugahyde sofa) cruisers with the world's most advanced powertrains and chassis'.
  • pm04,

    Benz actually seems to own the taxi market in Europe but I'm not sure how your taxi thing is a dig against any car. In Asia the Corolla seems to be the most common taxi car. Is that a bad thing? No, but I think you're making an argument that only holds water if you're a status buyer.

    The Euro-spec BMW 3-Series comes standard with a tachometer, fuel gauge, automatic transmission, vinyl-padded interior surfaces and an engine with six cylinders.

    No in Germany and most of Europe the 3 series comes with a manual standard and 4 cylinder engines. Seriously, do some research. 6 cylinder non-diesel BMWs (and Benzes and Audi/VWs, etc) are pretty rare outside of the USA. The 318d and 320d are actually the more common 3 series in Europe; our 328i's 6 cylinder is considered a luxury and a waste of money; the 335 is primarily for speed junkies in europe as the 330d is the most popular 6 cylinder 3 outside the USA. Gas prices are way too expensive in Europe to opt for a standard gas-burner 6 cylinder.

    American-spec BMW 3-Series adds leather, i-drive, and about $25,000 to the sticker price.

    Your ignorance knows no bounds, apparently. Go ahead and visit www.BMW.de ...we'll wait. Hit the 3 and then 3 Limo and Konfigurator.

    Okay, so for the 318din Germany - that's a 1.8 liter diesel - the starting price is 29,950 euros. In US dollars that's a starting price of $43,966.

    The 335i in Germany starts at 44,350E or $65,105 US Dollars. Go ahead and check the France, UK and Italy sites if you'd like too. In every case, the 3 series is far more expensive than it is in the USA.

    Via European Delivery, any US citizen can pick up a 335i in Munich with leather, 6 speed, sport package, xenons, power memory seats, active steering lights, moonroof, comfort access, metallic paint for ~$40,000 US Dollars. I personally, would not opt for leather on another BMW (unlike my 2006 330i that I bought via European Delivery for $35,700 US Dollars), so the price of an ED 335i will run me closer to about 38.5k with the features I do want - ala carte pricing is so nice for those of us who want an exactly spec'ed car.

    Sadly, an Infiniti G35 with moonroof, leather, sport package, active steering lights, memory seats and 6 speed will run me $38,865 US Dollars. Unfortunately, Infiniti forces me to get packages I don't want - namely a worthless navigation package. Still I'm sure I could negotiate 2500 off that price so we'll say $36,000 US Dollars for the Infiniti.

    That's cheaper than the 335i still but not by much. Considering I must pay for maintenance on the G35, let's add $1000 to maintain the Infiniti over 4 years /50k miles. So for a $1500 savings I can opt for a car I don't really like, G35, and that doesn't objectively perform as well as a 335i, or just pay the extra $1500 and drive something I like more and that objectively performs better.

    As I said before: for me with ED the pricing becomes moot and it's about picking the car I like to drive. The comparo swings wildly to the BMW's favor once you negate the pricing.
  • shov8shov8 Posts: 87
    Just a minor point on your post. You state you can get the G35 configured in a way you don't like (the navigation system), vs. the built-to-order ED 335i. The big caveat here that is not addressed is the "ED" part.

    With ED (European Delivery) you have to physically travel to Munich and pick up the car. ED does include shipping back to the USA and delivery to your dealer (a total of 8-10 weeks later, according to the web site). But the cost of flying to Munich and back, plus at least one night (probably two) in a hotel, isn't included. A sample trip in February 2008 (because you need to allow three months to build the BMW according to bmw.com) from San Diego, CA to Munich runs around $2000 on Expedia. Then there is a night or two in a hotel, plus misc expenses. I'm just getting a ball-park figure, but lets say $2500 minimum for the trip.

    So that +$1500 cost for the 335i just went up to +$4000 total. True, you do get to go to Munich :) so that is a bonus. Of course, you need to take time off from work, etc., so maybe that cancels that out. Still, we are trying to compare cost, so I think the trip cost should be added in.

    Since you took delivery of a 330i via ED maybe you could share the expenses involved with that so we could make an accurate 335i via ED vs G35 cost comparison. Thanks,

    kc
  • With ED (European Delivery) you have to physically travel to Munich and pick up the car.

    That's what ED is. Shrug. I didn't say otherwise as I clearly mentioned you have to get the car in Munich.

    So that +$1500 cost for the 335i just went up to +$4000 total. True, you do get to go to Munich so that is a bonus. Of course, you need to take time off from work, etc., so maybe that cancels that out. Still, we are trying to compare cost, so I think the trip cost should be added in.

    Why? It's called a vacation. I'd be doing the flight and trip anyway so it's not relevant to the cost, IMHO. Hell, we just spent two weeks in Thailand and had I bought some major ticket item at that moment I wouldn't consider the flight as a cost as I'd be there on vacation anyway. Should I opt for another BMW, I'm fairly sure we'll make a vacation of it as we have friends living in Paris and London. In fact just last night we began talking about a trip to France in late 08 or 09.

    Since you took delivery of a 330i via ED maybe you could share the expenses involved with that so we could make an accurate 335i via ED vs G35 cost comparison. Thanks,

    Flight = $900 (of course I've got about 200k in Frequent Flyer miles now so it'd be free. Additionally, Lufthansa has a two-for-one BMW special) *
    Two nights at Munich Marriott - $100 (or use Starwood points for free hotel stays)
    Train to BMW Delivery Center = $8 euros (about $11 US)
    Ride to Marriott from Redelivery Center - $35 US
    Lufthansa Airport Shuttle from Munich Marriott to MUC - $14 US
    Food - ~$100 US (actually far less as food is cheap in Germany)

    *This was a vacation so I just factored in my Germany costs. In actuality I drove south through Germany, Austria and Switzerland into Italy and then swung west through the South of France. I eventually drove through France and back into Switzerland, Austria and Germany. I noted my Germany costs only as over the entire trip I spent far more but that included nights on the French Riviera and seaside hotels.

    FWIW, if Infiniti or some other manu had a JD delivery program (and cars worth driving) I'd take another vacation to Japan.
  • shov8shov8 Posts: 87
    Looks like about $1200 extra from your list of expenses. I think, if it were not for the vacation part, your airfare would be more expensive. Not sure if the airlines like a Saturday night stay like they do domestically, but when I looked prices up on a Tues to Thurs trip it was around $2000 for airfare.

    I don't think many people will be in your situation, that is, having the time/money to take a vacation and pick up a car. Plus the waiting time to have the car built (three months), then shipped back (8-10 weeks, or more), is a limiting factor for a lot of people. You're talking almost 6 months before you actually get your car in the garage.

    I guess my point is, your original post stated that given the ED pricing the 335i wins the comparison, but not everyone can do the ED thing. I'm not saying that getting a 335i for <$40k even with the European trip is a bad thing, far from it, it's just that only a few probably do the ED experience (I wonder how many do it?) given the time/cost factors and therefore ED pricing shouldn't be used as a factor in a car comparison. Thanks,

    kc
  • I understand your point of view, but can't really agree with it. I'd contend a majority of people buying in the entry-lux market fits a few criteria:

    1. They already have a car.
    2. They spend a bit of time looking for a car
    3. They have the option of waiting for an ordered car - but many choose not to wait.
    4. Most are in fairly comfortable jobs that have PTO and most take some kind of vacation.

    BMW's Roundel mag had an article on ED. The numbers are growing yearly and have been for decades. Still it makes up a small fraction but it's significant enough that Audi kicked in their program this year and it's a bit more generous with knick-knacky silly things like "free hotel" stays and such.

    As for considering it for pricing: most people have the choice. Priorities I guess.
  • gjagja Posts: 25
    And don't forget you're still making monthly payments on it, while you don't have use of it, during the 8-10 weeks of shipping. That should be considered part of the cost.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,662
    But you do save on a rental in Europe for 1-2 weeks...
  • You're also not putting miles on it and when you do sell it, you'll lose very little in depreciation. A BMW with an MSRP of 45k and that you bought for 39k will hit you pretty lightly compared to other cars (and even an off-the-lot-BMW).
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "And don't forget you're still making monthly payments on it, while you don't have use of it, during the 8-10 weeks of shipping. That should be considered part of the cost."

    You're missing a couple of points:
    1) BMW-FW partially offsets the "on the water" time for leased cars. IIRC there is one payment that you don't have to make.
    2) While the 8-10 week shipping time may be the case for folks on the left coast, I received my ED car in just 4 weeks when I lived in New Jersey.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    ED as a way to save money buying a BMW comes up on a regular basis and the pros and cons are debated as if there is a "right" answer. There isn't.

    Having two associates that purchsed BMW's in the last 2 months highlights the differences. The one that purchased via ED took his wife to Europe for a 10 day vacation. They bought a 335i convertible and had a great time enjoying the experience. The cost of the vacation was more thn offset by the savings, especially since the car was not one that is being discounted much, if at all, stateside. He paid $1,500 over ED invoice and saved $5,500+ over the US MSRP.

    The other person, who previously bought a BMW in 1996 via ED considered going that route again. But given that he now has kids (3) at home and the trip could not be converted, practically or economically, into a family vacation, he decided to buy stateside. He bought an in-stock 550ia at close to invoice, and would have only saved an additional $3,000 going the ED route. He is a freelance attorney, with an hourly billing rate of around $500 and could not justify going away for 3-4 days to essentially save perhaps $1,500, after expenses.

    For some, the idea of ED is a very appealing way to take advantage of a significant price break, especially on certain models. But I certainly respect that, for others, time is money and the ED savings, while not insignificant, may not meet their "return" requirments, given the time it takes.

    I would agree with the suggestion, however, that ED should at least be explored and considered as an alternative. Almost everyone I know that has done it has had a great experience. The one exception is a friend who's (frequent flier) flight was cancelled and he went through hell and great expense rebooking to pick up the car within the required deadline. But even he admits that, once he got there, it was a worthwhile experience, albeit not much of a savings.
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