Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

1507508510512513593

Comments

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,689
    Hey Fed, you make a strong statement in the fact that your 911 ans 318i are sound cars, I think that the car industry push's cars that people MUST have.. I agree, if I was in the market for a Porsche, I would be looking at a used one, much better deal and I would be able to buy one very close to what I want for a much more reasonable price. Last week Rick and I went to North Scottsdale Porsche (the only Porsche dealer in phoenix) and was looking a Diesel Cayenne. Base $56K, however, the 3 on their lot were in the low $80K. VERY hard to justify those kind off payments, now they had 2, 2009 Cayenne GTS's average price mid $40K, I can deal with those prices... and last 100K miles if taken care of right... Just like most German cars...
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,190
    The math is what the numbers are- nothing more or less its numbers - my math is not my math but actual figures using real world examples- not generalities or random thoughts this is fact. I am not, for or against leasing but as a younger person with little credit or coin I did infact lease and it was a painless - since 25 I've owned all new cars mainly because I was liquid enuf to deal with the higher payment of a new car. I can see both sides of the coin have value.

    The "leader ad" - look if you do a search you will plainly see you are the person who first came up with this term - I understand you might be against leasing but the numbers (math) is more people lease these cars. This article is a little dates but makes my point. http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f37/most-luxury-cars-leased-bmw-mercedes-infi- niti-lead-pack-104834/

    Do us all a favor- reevaluate the attacks - who and what you are against and have some data, an article , a picture or something other then your thoughts to back what you are saying.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Not just Porsche Flightnurse.

    New cars whether leased or owned are just a waste of money. And in the case of the 3-Series, a new one is actually a step down from used. Why anyone would pay $50k for a numb bloated F30 when they could have an E90 for $30k is baffling.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,775
    Your math is not correct as Dino and pointed out, the 2009 you own, the 2013 you do not, so in the end, the 2009 is the better deal, once it is paid off, the kid has something that is worth $$.

    You keep keep accusing me of these "leader ad" crap. however, you have no proof of it, so please show this forum any proof of this, since you are accusing me of something that is not true.


    I once read an article (did not do the math myself). It went something like this:

    At 20 years old, person A buys or leases a new car every three years, then trades/turns in, and repeats every 3 years. After 45 years working life, he wants to retire.

    20 yo person B buys a 3 yo car, drives it 10 years. Buys another 3 yo car. Repeat until retirement. Person B invests the amount that Person A was spending buying/leasing the new cars. Investment returns are averages for past 45 years.

    Even allowing for the greater maintenance costs on the older cars, person B has over a *million dollars* from that invested money!

    Now I'm not saying any of us shouldn't buy/lease that new car - I've done it myself! Just know that it is FAR more expensive to have new all the time, whether leasing or buying.
  • Anyone driven the G35/37x and can compare it to other AWD sedans in snow performance? Like Audi Quattro, Acura SH-AWD, Subaru symmetrical AWD.

    The G37x is rear-wheel biased and AWD only kicks in when wheels slip. Even with snow mode on, I've read plenty about folks fishtailing in snow and being disappointed with its snow performance vis-a-vis other AWD cars they've owned.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 31,103
    It doesn't take a sophisticated AWD system to be good in snow...
    "AWD only kicks in when wheels slip" doesn't necessarily describe the G37X AWD system, but even a simple system like that can usually get the job done (see Honda CR-V).

    What makes the G37X a little harder to control in the snow are "performance" all-season tires and gobs of power... The tires are crappy in snow and the throttle takes a light touch..

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,549
    edited March 2013
    I second that. I'm not objecting to people buying/leasing cars often, I actually have done that, too. I'm definintely not a 10-year holder of a purchased 3-year old car, the longest stint I have done so far was 6 years, I also owned another car until it was 8 years old (I had it for a bit more than 4 years).

    It is wonderful that system made it possible and convenient for somebody to drive a virtually new car all the time (and a nice one) and move from one to another in a seamless fashion, without big hassles. It is also true that some manufacturers subsidize those lease deals, which is effectively lowering their sticker prices without actually doing so. Even with all of that, constantly paying a portion of three years of depreciation (even if it is lowered by a subsidy) is more expensive than buying a car (cash or loan) and say staying just couple of years beyond the warranty expiration. The sweet spot would be eight to ten years, but even six would do for most of the situations, except extreme ones. Many say "you can't own a car beyond warranty, it will fall apart and cost you a fortune" I say there is no evidence of such and let an extended warranty pricing be a guide. Since that is a very profitable product (number of people get fed by just selling them), and 100K mile extension with small deductible on ELLPS will not exceed $4K (most likely it will be about three grand) adding that plus extra planned maintenance of about another 2-3 grand (also most likely less), gives us AT MOST 7 grand average price of extended ownership. In fact, majority of people will pay much less, some unlucky ones will pay more. Nobody will convince me that two times (even) subsidized three year depreciation plus interest (money factor) and fees (two acquisition fees - $1500, two disposal fees - $500-$1000) is less that one time 6-year unsubsidized depreciation plus interest, but no fees plus extra maintenance and repairs/ext. warranty. And 6-years old well maintained car is still nice enough, IMHO.

    The only time the lease thing MAY be a trully cheaper alternative, is when the car is simply not driven by the leasee/owner, or to be more precise, when it is one of those (sorry Nurse and Doggy) "leader ad" deal, when the mileage limit is something like 8-10K per year. That will change the math in lease's favor, even with fees. However, for a normal commuter living in places like mine (no real public transit, 15-20 mile one-way just to get to work), the three year lease, even heavily subsidized, is a much more expensive proposition vs. extended ownership. It offers a convenience to those who will not be able to stay with their three-year old car, but even then it can be a tossup. Hwere is an example: in late 2008 I bought the STI, which I sold in early 2012 (3 years and change). In November of 2008, Lehman Brothers just went bankrupt, nobody was buying anything, Subaru offered $2500 off price that was already 2% under invoice PLUS 0% APR financing for 63 months. Basically $36.5K (plus fees, TTR, roughly $40K total) sticker became $29K ($33 with all taxes and fees). Three years later I sold it for $22.8K, 69% of total transaction price. It just so happened that the Japanese earthquake choked the new car supply to the point that used ones had prices beyond ridiculous. The lease offered at the time of purchase was at somewhere around 50% residual, i.e. $18 grand (not subsidized, and MF and all fees were definitely NOT zero). It was just a fluke, but even if I sold/traded the STI at originally projected value of $18K, the lease MF and fees would still be far more than the financing of the loan. At that time I investigated the lease becuase I did not consider STI to be my long-term choice anyway, but even with that the purchase showed to be much better course of action.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,536
    edited March 2013
    ky.....how'd you do this a.m. driving around?

    Noticed you're looking at a "Saaburu". Are you buying it?

    Got an invite for a "private event" to see the Acura RLX roll out. Also got an invite to look at the '13 Accord on the form of a $25 Mastercard. That was on top of the $50 Mastercard I got from Ford at the Chicago Auto Show.

    Car companies sure like to hand out money to people who aren't in the market.

    Dino...while I rarely keep a car past its warranty period, I agree...today there's little reason not to. All cars are more reliable today than at any time in history.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 31,103
    Roads were just wet on the "good" side of the river, so no issues... Still have my snows on the BMW... It's my wife that drives the G37X and she works from home....

    I made my offer on the Saabaru at 8:30 pm on Saturday night... guessing he wasn't too happy to get an offer of $500 less than asking... because, I haven't heard back from him... yet... (but, not everyone works 24/7.. lol)

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,536
    edited March 2013
    Good to hear everything is safe in the "holler". No issues up here, either.

    Given the dwindling market for Saabs (regardless of their origins), I'm suprised the dealer didn't offer to split the difference with you. If you get it, can't wait to hear the road story bringing it back.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,689
    Fed, its simple, because they want the latest and greatest, the ones who much have that are the ones who keep company's like BMW and Audi's alive. Now granted, I will be in the market for a new car soon, I'm running low on my free days from national.
    I plan on buying, and keeping my next car, just like I did with my 330, so I have the new 3 series wagon, with the diesel engine or the 3 series GT with the diesel engine on my radar. I don't plan on modify the car, like I did with the 330, just plan on driving it.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,549
    edited March 2013
    I don't think those are coming with diesels any time soon. Wagon will probably be only 328i/xi and GT will be 328i/xi or 335i/xi. Diesel is not even in new sedan yet, I'm not aware of plans to introduce it there, so it will take years, if at all, to make it to the wagon or GT. You can hope I'm wrong, of course.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,549
    edited March 2013
    New wagon just showed up on BMW website. Only 328 xdrive, but all four trims (modern, sport, luxury and M). Pretty high starting price ($42.4K including destination. BTW, what's up with their stupid "starting at" with a price without destination? How can I get one without destination? Don't you hate it when they start off with a blatant lie?).

    However, I'm sure when you price sedan to match wagons standard features (all wheel drive, fold down rear seat, sunroof), the differential is about 2 grand. I understand one may or may not want those, especially x-drive, but it's only fair to add to make apples to apples comparison. In "Dino's minimum config", i.e. red metallic, premium and lighting packages, anti-theft system, sport trim, including upgraded seats, sport transmission package (apples to apples), the price differential is about 2 grand ($49.6K wagon, $47.7K sedan). Steep, if you ask me for a (nice, admittedly) turbocharged four cylinder engine. Nice car, but no thanks for now - I stay with my E91, which cost me a few good thousands less, has extra navigation, a few more conveniences, including keyless entry, shades, homelink, parking sensors, basically another several grand of options on top of what's already high price. I can only imagine the price for 335i GT, when it comes in :cry: :cry: . I probably will have to wait even longer, if I wanted one.

    I also noticed they finally made split rear folddown seat standard on 328/335. Interestingly enough, 320i does not have it standard. Talking about leader ad there... They really make it so they can advertise "starting at" with $299/month, or maybe even $259/m lease if you don't want leather. After loading with leather and stuff, it tops 40 thousand bucks, 45 if you really put "everything" on it, but not by whole lot, so there is real price separation with loaded 328i. To me, it is pointless, but I guess for those looking at white an blue propeller in front and nice handling, but not much more, they get something there. It may be even selling OK.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,992
    Leasing is more expensive. I most definitely agree. In 18 months (yes math majors, for those who care I've had my 328xi for a year already), when the lease is up on my car I'm going to buy (finance). So in my case, the lease will have worked out less expensive than if I would have bought the car. There are 2011 328xis out there NOW selling for close to what my lease buyout is (in 18 months).

    You are right about out of warranty repairs being cheaper than buying a new car. What's the WORST case scenario with a BMW? iDrive crashes at 75K miles and needs to be replaced? What's that going to cost? $4000? So even if you have to outlay $4000, then pay for the 75K oil change, it is still cheaper than spending $50,000 on a new one. People like things shiny and new. They like to not pay for out of pocket repair costs. Most times because they live outside their means in the 1st place.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,992
    Half of the fun is getting there. Literally. I actually went & drove the car for our esteemed host. My NAV routed me through beautiful, downtown Lodi, NJ. I think Lodi is Spanish for "roll 'em up."

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,549
    edited March 2013
    Leasing is more expensive. I most definitely agree. In 18 months (yes math majors, for those who care I've had my 328xi for a year already), when the lease is up on my car I'm going to buy (finance).

    Wow, I'm impressed. I know I already did say "I told you so", so this time I'm just "I'm glad you saw the light". No, seriously - from what you wrote last year about your finances and preferences, I thought right away then that if you trully liked the car and it proves to be good to you, buyout will be best option. You got a great lease deal, the buyout will only take away a little bit, as you'd pay back some of that subsidy from the inflated residual. But you still keep the other discount and you still keep low finance charge. The only reason to back off is, if over those next 18 months the car developes some serious issues, and I mean serious ones, not just window motors, or hose faults. Hopefully in 18 months you won't see any issues to spook you out of it.

    BTW, hopefully not jinxing it, my only visit to a dealer in 19k miles/17 months was to do a basic maintenance. Not a single reliability-related issue - and why should it, really. This is advantage of buying a seasoned model, one that they worked out all the bugs before. The car has couple of annoyances, but they are due to design, not reliability. I can't stand the Point of Interest search on my Navigation. I think it's trully pathetic (categories, A-Z search, time it takes to display results, etc.) and several hundreds for an update of such a subpar system is simply ridiculous. It is 10% value and 90% brand, I'm not as inclined to pay for such mix.

    My ipod nano sometimes does funny things - when I turn the car off and back on, the podcasts turn into fast forward (high pitch fast speach). All I need is to reset it by switching back to music and back to the podcast again. It is annoying, but I doubts dealer would even be able to replicate the issue and if he did, he'd say it's my ipod's fault, their car is perfect - so I don't bother.

    What could go wrong? A lot of things, engine, transmission, electrical gremlins. All of it could be really costly, over ten grand even in really bad scenario. However, the real question is what is a chance? Small, very small in fact. Extended warranties are sold as insurances against catastrophic issues, but most of the time they serve as prepaid service for small nuisance stuff, costing less than the warranty itself. It is a peace of mind, indeed, but somewhat expensive. I'd rather buy such peace by having money in the bank and using it only when actually needed.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,536
    nyc....what a very nice thing to do.

    I had heard about the Saab/WRX, and the quest to ascertain its condition.

    I do remember those cars. They were Subaru WRXs with a slightly modified SAAB grill and trim (when GM had a stake in both).

    At one time, those cars could be had on the cheap brand new. Now, SAAB is gone and Subaru is no longer affiliated with GM.

    I actually thought about getting one when they were blowing them out. But, at the time, I had no need.

    Again, kudos to you.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,992
    When I decided to get rid of my Acura, it was for absolutely no good reason other than "I didn't LOVE it." The crummy brakes & lifeless electric power steering had a lot to do with that, but it would have been much more financially responsible of me to have kept it. Right now I'd have less than 2 years worth of car payments left & a car with 70,000 miles that would easily surpass double that. I treated myself by leasing my BMW.

    Once this lease is up, I'm going to stay off the hamster wheel. I'm going to buy whatever car I decide. I've got a sort of crazy short list in my head that includes but is not limited to:

    Buying the lease out on my 328xi
    Buying a used or CPO 2011 328xi with less miles (and less equipment).
    Buying a CPO 335xi
    Jeep Wrangler Unlimited (4 door, 4WD Convertible = very cool). The prices on these used are utterly ridiculous though.

    I'm going to set my MAX budget @ $30K. Once the lease is up on my BMW, I'll have less than 2 years left to pay off my wife's Pilot. So once the pilot is paid off, I'll be able to double up on whatever I get next & pay it off early.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,577
    'Official' intro tonight:

    http://www.facebook.com/events/551274494895629

    Some 'pre-release' pictures here [ and elsewhere ]

    http://www.carscoops.com/2013/03/2014-cadillac-cts-sedan-revealed-in.html

    - Ray
    Potentially interested in this new Caddy...
    [ 420 HP & 430 TQ .. Yum ]
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 15,652
    funny that KY is looking in Jersey. You mid-west guys seem to be always posting links to good buys on cars that I really want!

    2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4i Limited Tech (mine), 2013 Acura RDX (wife's) and 2007 Volvo S40 (daughters college car)

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,536
    You mid-west guys seem to be always posting links to good buys on cars that I really want!

    stick....so what's stopping you from undermining kyfdx and taking that car right out from under his nose? :P

    Ray....I saw that new CTS pics and announcements. That looks pretty tasty. It certainly sounds like it will have the performance chops, too.

    I'm wondering what pricing would be on that dual turbo 3.6L? I'll assume the regular breather 3.6 will be priced similarly to the current one.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,577
    'Ray....I saw that new CTS pics and announcements. That looks pretty tasty. It certainly sounds like it will have the performance chops, too. '

    I doubt pricing will be released until late Summer
    at the soonest.

    My GUESS is that a 2014 CTS Vsport will be in the $55k zip code...
    - Ray
    Interested
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,689
    My ipod nano sometimes does funny things - when I turn the car off and back on, the podcasts turn into fast forward (high pitch fast speach). All I need is to reset it by switching back to music and back to the podcast again. It is annoying, but I doubts dealer would even be able to replicate the issue and if he did, he'd say it's my ipod's fault, their car is perfect - so I don't bother.

    I do not think this is the car, I listen to a lot of podcast, and when I'm on the road I tend not to get lucky and get a rental with XM still activated, so I listen to my podcast, about half the cars I have the same issue as you. BTW, I use my iPhone. I'm wondering if it is a software issue with apple.. Some time the problem doesn't go away unless I use bluetooth audio to play the podcast... Other times I connect using my USB cable and have the problem..
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,689
    Dino, BMW stated that the sedan and wagon will come with a 2L 180hp Turbo diesel. I'm not expecting them until the 2014 MY. You can build a wagon on BMW website currently delivery wont happen until June. in regards to the GT, I don't see why BMW wont add the diesel to it either again, I'm not expecting it until MY 2014...
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,036
    Look at the screen when playing the podcast. There is a button that normally shows 1X. If you tap the button, it changes the speed to 1.5X and the .5X. I have no idea why the iPhone has this feature.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,549
    Fair enough. I think that's generally a good news to finally have lower power 4-cyl. diesels available, even if I don't care for them as much as the other guy. I read of 320d coming in, which finally makes much more sense than the older 335d. 335d was a rocket, but the case for diesel is in its fuel economy and car range, not in racing abilities. 180 hp diesel is definitely a better choice for the market and may even find some good following, as long as they price it correctly. It will give you a "feel" of 220-240 hp gasoline acceleration feel, just shorter in duration, because of rev limits. If the transmission is good, this may be a really good car. I wouldn't buy one (as long as gas stays around where it is now), but I see why somebody else would.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,190
    Dino was shocked at the short length of this responce- I actually got thru it thank you. Sorry about the nano, Maybe Steve jobs not happy you bought a BMW. Joking, but have you seen the length of some of your posts? Flight is a good recourse for apple products, leader ads, cvt transmissions and anything that has to do with bmws- so good hands, btw did not get to 5 guys burgers tonight will tomorrow.

    Car show highlights, yes I was there for the press preview.-
    love the new cts and the new 6 that puts 400 hp plus go caddy. Good to see Americana running strong. New buicks (not acura TL) look pretty and new tweaks on camaro very nicely done, go Obama.
    I don't know I'd that's the official mdx but not a fan, car looks dull vs old one.
    Infinti asking for people to preorder the new g at a special price, scratching my head, but car looked pretty good.
    Audi has the best looking fleet by far- range rover sport also pretty sweet.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,689
    I do not believe the iPhone does, in fact, I have a 2013 Ford taurus limited with 203 miles on it. Every time I start the podcast it run in 1.5x speed and this is being plugged into the USB port and playing through the radio. I do not have a problem with it is playing through blue tooth audio.

    On a side note, Fords audio system My Ford Touch, sucks.. I thought the first Gen of iDrive was bad, this Ford system is horrible....
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,689
    Dino, when it comes to gas prices, talk about difference in prices. In Calif Diesel is less then Premium unleaded, and with the 30% increase in MPG of diesel over gas, people who understand this will buy them. In Phoenix, currently Diesel is less then regular unleaded, so this means the price difference between Diesel and Premium unleaded is roughly .35/gal. Now will this stay this way, who knows, but as long as Diesel's price does not exceed premium unleaded by 30% there is a savings. What is the average price of Premium unleaded (PU) and diesel in the tampa area? How much does it cost to fill the tank with PU and how much would it cost to fill with with the same amount of gallons with Diesel? I'm sure the difference isn't that much but the savings on the diesel would out weight the cost.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,036
    I do not believe the iPhone does...

    My 3GS does have the 1/2X, 1X and 1.5X when playing an podcast.

    On a side note, Fords audio system My Ford Touch, sucks...

    I have it on my Explorer and IMHO it works pretty wrll. I have to say the biggest issue is typically the user - you have to know how to work it. It can be frustrating if you aren't used to it.
Sign In or Register to comment.