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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

1508509511513514575

Comments

  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,769
    My local Shell has Premium at $3.95. Diesel is $4.15. It's hard to justify the extra for diesel fuel.
  • michaellnomichaellno Posts: 4,300
    My local Shell has Premium at $3.95. Diesel is $4.15. It's hard to justify the extra for diesel fuel.

    Same here in Colorado - Shell has PUG at $3.75 and Diesel at $3.95.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,486
    edited March 2013
    Yeah, Florida too. Diesel almost never falls below regular, most of the time it stays either above or just below premium gasoline per gallon, probably more often above by 10-20 cents. It is not available at my Costco station, where I fuel every week (i.e. the effective differential is even higher, as Costco charges less than say Shell or BP). Considering diesel engines cost more and need more maintenance, the mpg differential needs to be really substantial to offset the fact that I don't like how it drives vs. nice smooth gas engine. At least 20% better mpg number before I even give it a time of my day.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • michaellnomichaellno Posts: 4,300
    edited March 2013
    At least 20% better mpg number before I even give it a time of my day.

    I also suppose it depends on the type of driving you do and what you use your car for.

    My wife has been getting about 22MPG on the last few tanks now that she's been in her new job for 3 1/2 weeks. This is a 2010 Mazda CX-7 that requires premium. She likes the security of AWD here in Colorado and the hatchback capacity since she is now toting about a lot of materials for the job.

    About the closest diesel equivalent would be the Jetta SWG - but it doesn't offer AWD. A small or mid-sized SUV with a diesel and high 20's combined fuel economy would be just about right. 20% above 22 is 26 MPG.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,468
    Diesel in NY and CT are always higher than 93 Octane by at least $.15/ gallon

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    I fail to see the logic, though.

    My local Shell has Premium at $3.95. Diesel is $4.15. It's hard to justify the extra for diesel fuel.

    12,000 miles/25mpg = 480 gallons of fuel. X 3.95 = $1896
    12,000 miles/30mpg = 400 gallons of fuel. X 4.15 = $1660

    That Diesel is more expensive is an illusion. The reality is it's less expensive over time.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,769
    But the upfront $3,000 premium would require almost 13 years to break even.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,295
    NYcarguy made a good point about this. You are paying more for a better engine upgrade. Not that much different on the BMW than paying to go from a 328 to a 335 or a 6 to an 8 on a 5 series.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,769
    You are paying more for a better engine upgrade. Not that much different on the BMW than paying to go from a 328 to a 335 or a 6 to an 8 on a 5 series.

    But IIRC, there may be some other upgrades as well. Does upgrading to the diesel give you anything else?
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,486
    edited March 2013
    Only if you consider diesel a better engine. Gas mileage is just one part. To me diesel is not a better engine for a sports sedan overall. Minivan, SUV, pickup truck, yes. Small sedan, sports sedan, convertible, coupe, no. Just an opinion, of course.

    On price point, $3000 price difference can be partially recouped at resale, so it may not need 13 years to pay it off. However, as I just stated, I consider diesel an inferior choice in terms of driving experience, thus it is not sufficient for me to just break even with gas. To put it simple, to even consider diesel, it would need to pay itself vs. gas in just two-three years, so after five or six I could really say it was cheaper.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    You beat me to it. Diesels, especially if they somehow have a manual transmission, are absurdly high on resale value compared to their gas cousins.

    Case in point. I can't literally buy a working/reliable Mercedes 240 Diesel with manual for under $4K. Almost 40 years old and it's still hard as hell to find a good condition one as nobody wants to sell theirs. Recent VW TDIs are also incredibly hard to find used as people just don't sell them unless they are literally falling to pieces.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 394
    I'll give you the sports sedan engine, as well as sports car, but not the every day sedans, the way the majority of people drive them they wouldn't even notice the diesel engine, except for some very slight noise dig fence, in fact most would prefer the low down torque of the diesel. Even in the ports sedans, in Europe they claim the best 3 series is the 320 d with the six speed manual ( I may not agree either BTW, just stating the Euro Mag's opinion).
    Also so far at least part of that $3000 is extra equipment as the diesels here tend to be a higher trim level than the base car, the manufactures are not offering base level trim with the diesels ( they are doing the same so far with most hybrids as well). I think this will start changing and we will see what the true cost of the diesel option is ( though reall with direct injection, turbo gas engines seemingly becoming the norm there is not much extra on a diesel anymore beside the particle filters, and there is talk of them be required on the gas engines soon too). Also someone said that diesels require more maintenance, I am wondering where that cames from?
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,769
    I can't literally buy a working/reliable Mercedes 240 Diesel with manual for under $4K. Almost 40 years old and it's still hard as hell to find a good condition one as nobody wants to sell theirs.

    I don't think you can really compare the availability of a 40 YO car with a modern mainstream car.

    Recent VW TDIs are also incredibly hard to find used as people just don't sell them unless they are literally falling to pieces.

    IMHO, current diesel buyers go out of there way to purchase diesel. Of course they are going to hold onto them - their only really choice is to go buy the same vehicle, just a few years newer.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,156
    edited March 2013
    Rightfully or wrongfully, diesel cars really are little more than niche vehicles here in the U.S. Not sure why, except diesel fuel, at least in OH, usually runs from 30 cents/gal more than petro....I've seen the delta go as high as 75 cents more for diesel.

    In short, it makes no economic sense.

    Diesels do offer a little more low end torque, but they also usually give up some HP and higher end revs in the process. So, I consider that a wash.

    Car makers try and try (mostly the Europeans) but they just won't get a foothold for all the reasons stated.

    For those who are fans of diesels, there are a few models to look at. I don't think they'll ever remotely be widespread, however.

    pletko....it's going to be hard to find any 40 year old car in great shape, not only diesel Benz's. :) I don't think VW brings all that many diesels to the U.S. to begin with compared to their selection of gasoline cars that they bring here, so TDIs will be hard to find.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,602
    Interesting so the cost difference is only $4/tank between the two, now if you smoke or go to start buck you spend more on your vice than a tank difference. Plus you get 30% better MPG..
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,602
    Considering diesel engines cost more and need more maintenance,

    What is the price difference? .20/gallon and if your tank hold 20 gallons you are talking $4/tank difference not much of a difference. However, you get 30% better mileage.

    More maintenance? In which way?
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,602
    The break even point all depends on how much you drive? When we were at the VW dealer looking at the Passt, they had a chart that showed the break even point on all their TDI. The average drive drives 15K miles a year for VW the break even point is roughly 4 years, of course the longer you hold the car the more it pays you back.

    For some, owning a diesel is not the best think because they do not keep their cars long enough, for me and my partner it does since we hold on to our cars longer than most.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,602
    Rightfully or wrongfully, diesel cars really are little more than niche vehicles here in the U.S. Not sure why, except diesel fuel, at least in OH, usually runs from 30 cents/gal more than petro....I've seen the delta go as high as 75 cents more for diesel.

    In short, it makes no economic sense.


    Hey Graphic the price difference you are talking about is this between Premium unleaded and Diesel ? Since BMW recommends PU in their cars this is the only way to look at it.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,156
    edited March 2013
    FN....my low end comparison was between Premium and Diesel.

    For example, filled up yeasterday. Premium was 3.72/gal. Diesel was 4.09/gal.

    Makes no financial sense for Diesel.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,486
    edited March 2013
    There is an extra maintenance around emission systems due to regulations. Depending on the manufafacturer, it may amount into urea injection tank refills (Mercedes Benz), or some other emission control activities. It would be best to check with the manufaturer or dealer on the maintenance schedule. I would not believe everything dealer posts on their sales floor - or to be exact, if they say it's 4 years, it probably is 6 to 8 to break even.

    BTW, I don't believe modern diesels would last as much as older ones. There are already indications (in European markets) that the new crop suffers from same issues that undercut gas engine's longevity (electronics, sensitivity to fuel quality, leaks in turbos, etc.).

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,486
    edited March 2013
    It still would if you got 25% gas mileage and resale value was high. If diesel gives you only 10-15% gas mileage boost, not so much. Also, some ELLPS (not many) may not require premium gas, which would make needed differential even higher.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • albert72albert72 Posts: 141
    check out this link - the new diesel engines are vastly more complicated than the old school MB diesels.

    Crunch the numbers, ie greater cost to buy, greater cost of fuel vs increased mpg. Also try to figure out incremental cost to maintain. Depending on how much you drive and the % of city vs highway, it could be 8 years to breakeven and in that amount of time, a lot can happen regarding fuel prices, disparity in price between gas and diesel and of course, drivetrain technology and improved mpg.

    http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/DPF-Adblue-FAQ-VW-Audi.htm
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,602
    I wonder if the AMG version of the CLA is also a Front-wheel driver. It's generally agreed that 200-225 hp is the practical upper limit for FWD. 300HP would be wasted in such an application and result in either excessive wheelspin or constant intervention on the part of electronic traction control.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 394
    I am pretty sure (95%) that it is AWD
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,468
    The AMG version of the CLA will be 4Matic AWD.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,156
    andy...I think it's based on a FWD platform with a Haldex AWD addition.

    Pretty interesting performance at a pretty good price point. Like the looks, too.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,602
    VW will be bring over TDI version of their Tiguan for 2014, as well as the Audi Q5. Audi has been importing their A3 in a TDI and Quattro for some time. The combined MPG has been in the high 20's to low 30's.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,965
    There are many FWD cars with 270-310 hp and I don't think the conditions you describe are that common or much of a problem.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,602
    Graphic, if your car gets 28 on the high and the diesel gets 39 on the highway, that $8 difference goes away very quickly (BTW the 39 on the high is the low side.)

    580 miles per tank for PU
    780 miles per tank for Diesel
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