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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,633
    Have you thought about the Hyundai Genesis? It's probably in same price point as the LS or C but will give you GS/5/E amenities.

    Stop telling people about the Genesis!
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,810
    Stop telling people about the Genesis!

    Did I do something wrong? I can't recall suggesting the Genesis over and over....

    :confuse:

    Or am I missing a joke?
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,633
    Already have one. Need a sedan that can sit 5 comfortably. Currently have a Camry and it does the job well.

    So define comfortably. Having 3 kids in the back wont last long in the comfort department, even if you buy a LS, so maybe looking at a 7 passenger SUV is your best option.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    I like stuff. I like equipment. It's just not everything. I was always complaining about Subaru witholding some high end options from their WRX line (e.g. HID lights were not available, except STI for three generations). BMW forces people to buy some nice or even basic stuff for extra charge. Split fold-down seats, which is my pet peeve, was not standard on 328/335 sedan until this year. It is still not standard on 320i. That is purely ridiculous. However, just because Kia has more standard equipment than BMW, it is not automatically "more car". Moreover, BMW seems to be getting away with their pricing practice.

    I also agree with somebody's comment that F30 is a final goodbye kiss to the enthusiasts and final embracement of "badge shopping". It was present already in E9x version (as much as it pains me to say), I think E3x was the pinnacle of BMWs enthusiast sedan engineering. From there it got progressively softer and bigger.

    I think their hand was partially forced by nanny states, both here and across the Ocean (gas mileage limits, safety standards, etc.). I think they also decided that they can afford more decisive "badge" move simply because the enthusiasts have nowhere else to go. So they may lose a few, but they gain all those hords coming to the showroom and saying "it's a nice car, but legroom is too small, suspension too hard, gas mileage too low". Those people would not know cornering from corner ring. They think Ford Expedition was fun to drive. However, they are majority, so BMW simply obligued. :cry:

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,633
    the one thing that the wagon won't have happens to be the key issue. Back seat width.

    So what sedan can he buy that will be wide enough to handle two booster and a kid in the middle (I would hate to be that middle kid), I would assume that when the whole family goes out together, they take the mini van and hot the sedan...
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    2013 Avalon...2014 Impala...the current "Big" cars...maybe the new CTS in this ELLPS category.

    I would just go buy the 'smaller' booster seats and get the car I want :) But I understand wanting to 'tame the beasts' in the back seat...
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,633
    http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130418/AUTO0103/304180390/1121/auto01/New-C- hevy-Cruze-diesel-gets-46-mpg-on-highway

    I know this is going to send some people into orbit, but I figured that this is the start of the diesel invasion. The interesting thing is, as the diesel engine breaks in, MPG will increase, so in theory higher MPG is not out of the question.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    I would happily buy a diesel economy car, luxury car, utility vehicle, etc. but not a sports car. Like an automatic transmission, having a 4K redline just sucks fun out of the driving experience.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,525
    edited April 2013
    If BMW puts this motor in a 5-series & sells it here
    [ for a reasonable price ]
    I would be interested....
    'Featuring the newly developed tri-turbo 3.0-liter six-cylinder in-line diesel engine, the M550d is rated at 381 HP (280 kW / 375 bhp) between 4,000 - 4,400 rpm. But the real eye-popper is the maximum torque figure of 740 Nm (546 lb-ft) available at a relatively low 2,000 - 3,000 rpm. Redline is 5,400 rpm.

    The result is a 0-100 km/h time of 4.7 seconds making it possibly the fastest diesel sedan on the market. Check out the video to see the speedo/tachometer shot of Gebhardt's 0-250 km/h (155 mph) test.

    Starting price in Germany for the M550d xDrive is 80,800 euro. Compared to the BMW M5 which starts at 102,700 euro, the M550d could be a viable alternative for those looking for a little more value and efficiency (6.3L/100km ; 44.8 mpg imp) as well as a less aggressive super sedan image.'
    - http://www.worldcarfans.com/112022141431/bmw-m550d-xdrive-0-250-kmh-test-by-spor- - t-auto

    - Ray
    Would NOT be an 'Entry Level' Sedan....
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    Ditto. I think it sucks much more than modern automatics (they made huge progress).

    Notice where diesel was used in racing - 24 hr endurance. Surely not for its dynamic properties, acceleration, speed. It was plain and simple mathematics - reduce number of pitstops and you can go slower on the course. So they did.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,633
    edited April 2013
    Notice where diesel was used in racing - 24 hr endurance. Surely not for its dynamic properties, acceleration, speed. It was plain and simple mathematics - reduce number of pitstops and you can go slower on the course. So they did.

    The old saying is Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday comes to mind. Audi's R10 and now R15 are prime examples of this, these cars have dominated the La MAns series races, showcasing the TDI endurance helps in the showroom.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,633
    Damn you Ray, you beat me to it, I know that BMW has teased us with photos of the 550d, I just don't see BMW bring it over, just yet. I would say that having a car that is capable of some serious fun and still get descent MPG is a draw for some, but in the price point of the 550d, not many would be buying it because of it's MPG. I would assume people who bought it on the used car lot would understand the benefits of the MPG as well as the statement BMW is making with the car.

    Since GM was the first to get their MPG back from the EPA on the diesel Cruze, it will be interesting to see what the Mazda 6 and the BMW will get. In the currently edition of Autoweek, they talk about the total percentage of passenger cars sold in the US last year that were diesel cars, 2.6% which if you look at it, this is only VW (this includes Audi) and MB isn't bad, now starting in 2014 MY, add two more manufactures. Autoweek predicts that in 10 years the total to be 15%, a small number, but still a significant increase. Only time will tell.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    15% market share would be enormous growth in the segment - 500%+! And I would not call it "small" at all. That is significant marketshare, it would mean diesels are everywhere, offered by every manufacturer. One out of 7 vehicles, from Spark to Suburban, from Carrera to Ram 1500. It is certainly attainable, mostly by having diesel engines in pickups, SUVs and even family wagons/crossovers.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • I am looking for an entry level luxury sedan that is atleast as big as Camry to hold 5 adults comfortably. Looking for something under $50 - $55K. I know this is a performance forum, but that is not an important criteria for me. Which Sedans will fit that category?
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Go to page 796 and start reading at post #15902. :)
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,230
    edited April 2013
    In addition to following fedlawman's direction, I'd also look at....

    -Audi A6 2.0....It has the less expensive turbo 4 cyl (and less performance than the supercharged 3.0 6 cyl, and a great engine), is a larger lux car, and offers some nice handling charateristics.

    -Audi A4....same as above only a little smaller.

    -Acura TL SH AWD w/Tech package.....very nice lux performance car, totally loaded up, and a screaming bargain right now (my Sister just bought one)

    -Lexus ES 350...should be able to sneak in just under $50K

    -While I don't know much about them, Volvo S60 would probably fit the bill, too

    -BMW 328i/335i.....might be a little too small, but look at them and see if they work

    Good luck and let us know how the car shopping is going.
  • jeffm5jeffm5 Posts: 109
    I have a 2013 Volvo S60 T5 FWD. A great car - fun to drive, easy on gas, very comfortable front seats BUT, I don't think 2 adults would be comfortable in that back seat for any length of time. As for 3 adults, forget about it!!
  • I looked at BMW 3 series and they are very small. Will not work. Same thing for Audi A4. I also looked at Acura TL and Lexus ES 350, they still seem a little smaller than Camry (is that correct?, hard to tell). Is Audi A6 bigger than TL and ES?
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    ES350 is not smaller than Camry, it should be larger. A6 is bigger, also much more expensive.

    I would not call 3-series or A4 "very small". Surely too small for your needs (which is fair), but if 328 is "very small" than there is no word in English language to describe almost half of car models in the market.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • Good to know that ES350 is not smaller than Camry. A6 looks good too. Need to actually go and look at both of these now. In terms of price, looks like A6 will come out about 4K more than ES350 (have to add in the options for ES350 since not a whole lot standard). So for 4K more, is A6 the better Sedan?
    Also, I know in the long run A6 is going to be more expensive in terms of maintenance.

    Should not have used "very small". More like relatively small.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    Are you sure A6 is only 4 grand more? There are plenty of options there, too and they'd drive up the price with breath taking speed. I always thought Lexus was much better in standard content than German brands. Not as good as Acura, but still - especially ES, I thought was well equipped out of the gates. Things change, I guess.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,230
    You're knocking on the door of $50K MSRP for an A6 2.0 Premium Plus auto. You won't get the fancy stereo, but you will get Nav for that price (less a couple thousand for discount).

    You have to add some costly packages to the ES350 to hit the Audi level.

    I still think the A6 is bigger, but haven't been in an ES in a while.

    I do think the TL would be similar in size to the ES, though.
  • the 2.0 CVT A6 fully loaded comes to be 50K MSRP and fully loaded ES350 (luxury package) comes to be around 46K MSRP. So it is a 4K difference. I am more worried about the maintenance cost for Audi since I plan to keep the car for long time (10 - 15 years).
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    If it came to those two cars, I'd probably get Lexus - 2.0 CVT Audi would be least interesting vehicle to me. Audi without quattro is to me like decaf or non-alcoholic beer. Not to mention it probably is pretty stripped for the class. Doesn't mean completely stripped, just I suspect if you wanted same equipment as on ES, you'd have to pay more than $50K. The only advantage is probably size, but how would that four-cylinder engine perform on such large and heavy car? ES350 would feel like a rocket in comparison. But if that's not really important to you (I can easily imagine relatively underpowered car being enough for majority of drivers) than you may like Audi.

    I would also be concerned about long term maintenance. I think Audi still sells moderately priced maintenance package for first few years, but it is definitely more risky beyond warranty period than ES. I don't think it would "fall apart", but you'd do yourself a favor by having some decent fund for the car. BTW, my dad has now six (or maybe more) years old A4 1.9 TDI (in Europe) and the car is working just fine. He's had it for a number of years now. Once a while something pops up, but it is not backbreaking - so far, anyway. It's not exact comparison (there are somewhat different practices and pricing schemes over there vs. US), just one data point.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,230
    dino...Audi's ext warranties and maintenance plans are indeed more sanely priced than many. That's damning them with faint praise, however. As none of those plans are worth what the car companies charge for them, given the dealers and manufacturers get to use a large chunk of your change basically for free, over a period of years.

    An A6 2.0 isn't bad. That little 4 cyl turbo is torquey. It's not the burner the supercharged 3.0 is. It would work for the OP's intended use.

    I've never owned a Lexus. I have a couple of neighbors that do. While they love being coddled by the dealership, they don't like the prices they pay for maintenance and repair. Getting a 3rd party mechanic that you trust would probably help.

    Just thinking out loud, if the OP wants a bigger vehicle that fits 3 in the back, an Acura MDX, or Lexus RX, or an Infiniti JX would probably be the better fit. I don't think many cars in his price range are going to be big enough for 3 passengers in the rear (along with car seats :surprise: ).

    I have an independent mechanic I use once my vehicles are out of warranty. He has a great philosophy. If you're buying a car to last you 5-10 years, by a Japanese brand. If you're buying a car for 3 years, buy German. If you want something cheap to maintain and repair, buy American.
  • jeffm5jeffm5 Posts: 109
    How about a 2013 Avalon? I had a 2005 and it was a great car with a limo-like back seat. I'm told the new one handles better, although some have said the ride is harsh. I know that it's not considered "entry luxury" but it can be loaded up with lots of advanced tech features. It might be worth a look.
  • robbiegrobbieg Posts: 327
    Also, outside the box is the Cadillac XTS. Again, not an entry level luxury sedan but a large sedan. They start at 45 and go up from there. So, it depends on how many gadgets you want.

    To bring the discussion back, this morning there was a review of the ATS in the local paper. Basically, the writer said it was average with a really small backseat.

    http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/business/auto-news/drivers-seat-2013-cadilla- c-ats-offers-a-little-bit-of-luxury-684769/
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