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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,236
    scw....I happen to like the way the new Lincolns look too. I think the big knock on them is there's little to differentiate them from their more humble step sibblings from Ford. I don't know which models compare from Ford to Lincoln. But, from what I've read, you'd be hard pressed to see why the Lincolons cost extra thousands when moving from a Fusion, Taurus, etc to their Lincoln counterparts.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    C&D, June issue, test drove Lexus IS350, BMW335i and Cadillac ATS 3.6. Lexus finishes first, BMW second, Cadillac third.

    They didn't think Lexus would be the best sports sedan until they "dove into the twisting, climbing, kinking, plunging roads around Leakey, Texas" with it.

    On BMW they said: "Still good at everything, no longer the best at much".

    They said that Cadillac "the most flawed", but they liked the handling.

    So, is the world almost turned upside down. Cadillac better than BMW in handling, but more work to do with other things. So, where will BMW be in next comparo in a couple years.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    Seems that BMW gave up the spot voluntarily rather than Lexus leaping over. That is sad.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,621
    Seems that BMW gave up the spot voluntarily rather than Lexus leaping over. That is sad.

    That's my impression as well. BMW is losing sight of the fact that they'll never build a better Lexus than Lexus can. As a result Lexus is no longer chasing BMW, it's the other way around.

    Thanks to the way the Euro is tanking, BMW, Audi and Mercedes have an opportunity to put more content and value into the cars. Let's hope they take advantage of this. How about BMWs with spare tires, temp gauges, shift levers that don't look like keg taps and good old "go flat" tires?

    Right now the biggest knock seems to be the new electric steering. I imagine that will be improved over time. I'm old enough to remember how awful the first hydraulic assist steering was but over time it got a lot better.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,637
    GC the the Fusion is the MKZ and the Taurus is the MKS.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,236
    FN...I think part of Lincoln's problem is I don't know their models anymore....and I'm probably one of their market targets if I had to guess. Plus, I don't know what advantage they offer over any of their competitors in the same price class.

    Thanks for the info on car stereos. I know the upper end B&O stereos on upper end Audis are better than the one in my S4. But, they're also big buck upgrades, too. Haven't heard the B&O in either the A6 or A8.

    Still, hard to beat the ELS in the TL.
  • larrys8larrys8 Posts: 31
    Thanks everyone for the replies. I guess I am looking for the perfect, do everything car. You were right on the money with the Murano....I am sure I can get a great deal HAHA. Best thing for me likely is to keep the G sedan and look for a used jeep or mita to have as a fun car!! Problem is convincing the wife that "I need it"

    Thanks all for keeping this forum entertaining!
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,637
    GG, last week Rick and I went to the Audi dealer, I'm looking at the A5 as the new ride. While talking to the saleman, he was telling us about the A8 and B&O soundsystem. They had a S8 in the showroom, and he demoed the sound system, I would buy the A/S/8 just for that system, incredible simply incredible. The sound stage was right up in front of the driver and passenger. Deep rich lows and crystal clear highs (without hurting ones ears.) However, the entrance to this sound system is steep, but if you want a A8 or S8 money isn't an issue. The B&O sound system in the A5 is good but not as good as the A8 or S8. Now if I can only find a excellent used S5........
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,147
    How do you find the time to go to so many dealers- Audi, Porsche , etc and test drive these cars and somehow walk out without anything?
    Follow up q.
    Do you think the local dealers will one day lock you out at some pt?
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited May 2013
    "Thanks for the info on car stereos. I know the upper end B&O stereos on upper end Audis are better than the one in my S4. But, they're also big buck upgrades, too. Haven't heard the B&O in either the A6 or A8.

    Still, hard to beat the ELS in the TL."


    A little OT Graphicguy, but I finally am able to return the favor on your "Dishwalla" recommendation a couple years ago. Its become one of my favorite albums of all time. Thank You.

    So... If you havent heard it, check out "Random Access Memories" by Daft Punk. I know, Daft Punk - but I promise its not what youre expecting. Fantastic writing, legendary intrumentalists, and top notch production. It will sound incredible in the car!
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,637
    So... If you havent heard it, check out "Random Access Memories" by Daft Punk. I know, Daft Punk - but I promise its not what youre expecting. Fantastic writing, legendary intrumentalists, and top notch production. It will sound incredible in the car!

    Downloaded a week ago, love it. I agree with Fed on this.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,637
    http://www.thedieseldriver.com/2013/04/2014-bmw-328d-review-and-road-test/

    It appears that BMW is confident that this car will get better than 40 MPG on the highway, talk has been 45...
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,236
    fed....sorry....little late checking in. Not around here much recently. I love Daft Punk. Actually have "Get Lucky" and some others from that same album on my iPod. Thanks for the recommendation.

    Glad you liked Dishwalla. They weren't around long. Then again, the stuff I hear on the radio is a far cry from what our tastes run to.

    Again, thanks for the recommendation.
  • I have test-driven most of the cars mentioned and owned a TL until about three years ago. I admit that the TL is a solid, reliable, down-the-middle performer in spite of the FWD (haven't driven an SH), but they are less cushy than an ES, handle much worse than any of the Audi's mentioned, the Beemers, or the G37 and their styling--ugh! I find a lot of the comments about the ATS mystifying. Try a performance-trim ATS 3.6 and see how the TL stacks up. My biggest complaints with the ATS are the terrible color choices and cheesy interior trims. Also, for some reason, Cadillac dealers want to overpopulate their lots with boring silver and annoying black ATS's (probably because they sell the best to the public!). My wife, however, dislikes the colors and appointments of the ATS even more than I do, so forget that. She wants to buy a small SUV--gag me! I may be stuck with an Infiniti coupe. Sad huh?
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    edited May 2013
    This may be old news for some, but I just learned that - I ran across the C&D comparison of top end of ELLPS (Lexus IS350F, Caddy ATS 3.6 and BMW 335i ). And the winner is... Lexus :surprise: :surprise: :surprise: :surprise: On Car and Driver, high priests of BMW cult machine!! There were some knockouts of other magazines before. I remember many years ago Automobile or Road and Track put G350 over 330i, but the win was mostly on ground of value, as G was proclaimed a bit worse, but price difference made it win on adjusted score. But this time it is C&D. Moreover, the IS won was based on driving experience, not some secondary metrics. The biggest complaint against 335i was the miserable steering feel, which was pretty much what I thought myself on that 328i loaner. This is basically telling me BMW gave up on being true enthusiast sports sedan, or succumbed to gas mileage pressure. Electromechanical steering probably gives them extra mpg's.

    I am pretty positive that Lexus win was not because it's such a great car to drive (I mean, it probably is a fine car, but I doubt it all of the sudden became true "driver's car"), but it is BMW that changed so much. As others (Caddy, Lexus) are figuring out how much make a nice sports sedan, BMW seems to be in process of progressive amnesia, or worse - flat out rejection. I guess the market of badge and big back seat seekers is simply too large to ignore. This is a bit sad, but the market wizzes from BMW decided the small enthsiast folk got nowhere to go anyway, so no need to care what they want :cry: .

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,574
    For those of you who are also on CCBA & SFTSF, this is a re-post:

    As you all know, my current DD is a 2011 BMW 328xiA which I am madly in love with. Today I had to bring my car in for service (trunk latch, adaptive headlight, & battery cable recall) and was provided a loaner car to drive. I've had a fantastic experience with 2 previous loaner cars, a 2011 335d & a 2013 X1 28i. Today's loaner car write up is on the 2013 BMW F30 328xiA sedan.

    I sit down in the car, adjust the seat & the mirrors, look for a place to stick the key (it's keyless go dummy!), put my foot on the brake, push the start button, tap the car into Drive and I'm ready to roll. The 4cyl N20 Turbocharged engine is most definitely nowhere nearly as smooth as my car's Inline 6 and kind of clatters like a diesel at idle.

    The 1st thing I notice is the the new F30 is bigger than my E90. Bigger trunk, bigger back seat, more headroom, wider center console. Bigger, but not as comfortable. The new center console is wider and my right leg is not comfortable resting up against it.

    The seats are nice and firm. Even though they are no Sport Seats, they have thicker bolsters than my car. I notice the buttons on the dash board are located much higher than they are in my car. The screen is smaller and I look down at the i-Drive controller and realize that this car doesn't have Navigation. No big deal, but the smaller screen looks like an afterthought. The steering wheel is bigger and is not as thick as the steering wheel in my car. Dash & interior materials are high quality.

    Navigating my way out of the dealership's back lot, I notice the featherlight steering. I stop a minute after starting the car to adjust my seat some more and the car shuts off. What? Oh, auto stop/start. Take your foot off of the brake or tug the steering wheel and the car fires right back up instantaneously.

    Right out of the dealership I notice how vague the steering response is and how soft the suspension is tuned. A few traffic lights later and I notice the "drive mode" button. I figure out the car is in "eco-pro" mode and toggle is forward 2 notches until it says "you are now in sport mode." Now we are getting somewhere. I notice the steering tightens up to an acceptable level and throttle response is instantaneous. I can't give it a full nail the gas and merge test because there is just too much traffic.

    Once I'm on the highway, I figure I'll just toggle back down to "eco-pro" mode to see what kind of MPGs this baby can return. The car wallows, is unresponsive, and provides the same steering "feel" as a 1991 Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser Station Wagon. This lasts for approximately 25 seconds. I think to myself: "what are they kidding me?"

    I toggle back into "sport" mode and notice the same thing that happened before, except now the 8 speed automatic shifts into 6th and won't go any higher, even though I'm cruising. Toggling the car into "comfort" mode dials back on the throttle response and steering weight. Plus the car will shift into 8th gear. But now the car is not as tight.

    Pay the toll, dial up "sport" mode and mash the gas on the way out. The 8 speed autobox shifts crisply and the motor rockets the car forward. The engine and transmission are paired perfectly. You can tell they were designed together.

    So now "sport" is the way to make the car drive decent. So in order to keep the revs down, select "sport," slide the beer tap shifter to the left, and "manually" shift into 8th gear.

    Hit a decent amount of "bad weather" traffic once I hit the CT border. The brakes don't seem as strong as my E90, there seems to be a bit of pedal float until the brakes bite, and I can actually feel the car dive under semi hard braking.

    While I was cruising, the trip computer said I was consuming fuel at a rate of 32 mpg. Even with the traffic, the car still returned 30.5 mpg. Good fuel economy numbers are nice, but that's not the main reason you buy "the ultimate driving machine."

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • billyperksiibillyperksii Posts: 198
    What's this? a bimmer pity party?
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    Yes, you didn't get the memo? :P ;)

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,236
    warthog...just goes to show. Different experiences and expectations by different people. Personally, I found the ATS (both 3.6 and 2.0 turbo) to be coarse (much like the new 4 cyl turbo BMWs that NYC speaks about and the older G 3.7). The performance delta between the 3.6 V6 and the 2.0 4 cyl turbo is negligible. And, despite the ballyhoo Cadillac bombarded us with, it has not sold to expectations.

    The good news is, you can buy a G37 cheap right now. Just helped my sister buy a TL SH AWD (still one of my all time favorites). Good deals on those, too.

    It's hard to beat the smoothness and the sounds the 6 cyl engines in the BMWs, Acuras, Audis, Mercedes, Lexus. BMW should take some lessons from Audi with regards to how to build a smooth, torquey 4 cyl turbo.

    Kind of wanting to drive the Lexus ES after seeing that article. Closest I ever came to owning a Lexus was a few years ago, when the IS350 first hit the streets. Only reason I didn't was the dealership(s) didn't like that I wanted to make a skinny deal on one. Today, they would jump all over such a deal, from what I hear. But, I'm no longer interested.
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Posts: 198
    GRAPH, sort of like me with the GS.
    I remember when I was in college, I was walking in the City and I saw one, I said, I got have one of those in this life time. (PRESENT DAY) The direction Lexus took with the GS has left a bitter taste in my mouth
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,574
    Dino & I kinda think alike when it comes to cars. It is funny that he posted about the F30 on the same day I got my F30 loaner and HAD to comment on it as well.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,637
    You can't compare a ATS 3.6 with a base TL, IF you want to do that then compare it to the stop of the line SH.

    I just rented a ATS 3.6, when I'm out traveling and have time, I check nationals lot to see if I see a "fun" car, and I found the 3.6. It was fun, only had it for 2 days, it is about the same size as the last Gen Lexus IS, and smaller then the current 3 series and TL. This might be the biggest draw back for most people.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,147
    This review - and I'm not a bmw homer like most here- is it more Buyers remorse or just a belief that the old underpowered "smoother" 6 is better then the more effecent and more powerful 4... Doesn't the 4 pull 60 more lbs of torque? Have more hp- have standard leather (sorry I kid)
    I would guess a week in the new rig would result in new results- or review. Or if you leased a 2012 vs a 2011 it would result in buyers bias.

    The old and new bmw are good cars to bad you have to pay extra if you decide to buy and bot lease one.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,574
    I most definitely DO NOT have a shred of buyer's remorse. I do dig the power of the turbo 4. Gobs more power everywhere in the rev range. It is perfectly matched to the new 8 speed automatic as well. I'm just not in love with the F30. The vague electric power steering, the softer suspension, the higher belt line. The base tires have too tall side walls, there's too much of a gap in the wheel wells, I don't care for the front end styling if the car doesn't have Xenon Headlights. Don't get me wrong, the F30 is a nice car. Just not for me.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,621
    the F30 is a nice car. Just not for me.

    That sums up my reaction to a short test drive in the new 335i Sport Line. It's a nice car but lacks the magic of my E46 or for that matter my E39.

    I think I'd like the car better if they'd fix the (electric) steering which was terrific on previous Bimmers.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,637
    and I'm not a bmw homer like most here

    No but you secretly want a BMW and have in the past been looking to buy one so stop playing these games. BTW, the 335 has the smallest engine, lowest HP and torque rating of the group, but posted the fastest 0-60 and quarter mile times of the group now bad for a " underpowered "smoother" 6"

    It's interesting that BMW lost this test by ONE point, and that C&D give it perfect points on many items. Granted the car has gone soft, because that is what the market wants, for the true enthusiast like most people on this board it's not what we want, however, the minority can not keep the company in business like the masses can.

    It has taken Lexus how long to get the IS right? The ATS still can't win a test against the inferior BMW...
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    edited May 2013
    Sween referred to the naturally aspirated 230 hp engine in E9x 328 models, not the 300+ hp turbo six in 335 that you are writing about in C&D test. Two different engines.

    It will take some time to admit it by the fan base, but F30 is a letdown when it comes to sports sedan. That is an opinion, of course,

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,147
    edited May 2013
    Lets go thru this babble one line at a time.....

    "secretly want a BMW" it's not much of a secret if I said I was looking for one various times, also mentioning my frustration on what you get for a new one at certain price pts and also mentioning I was looking used.

    Smother six rant- again was talking 328 vs 328.. So lost here

    C and d mention- no idea how this relates to my post as it was never mentioned- but again this par to the other posts from you.

    "One" in bold comment - bmw lost get over it - one in a million does happen, ask Lloyd Christmas.

    - my comment-

    Any new test drives in the works on cars you would like to drive but have no real intention of buying or have the Scottsdale dealers shut down the window shopping Saturday fun fest ?

    I would also like to mention the counter attacks are more underpowered then the new 320.
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