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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • sjaievesjaieve Posts: 252
    The 335i already kicks the competition's a** as far as perfomance, why are they duplicating efforts with the tii?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Because the 335i has zero appeal to enthusiasts. BMW doesn't make a car that caters to people who want fun and light.
  • sjaievesjaieve Posts: 252
    Isn't that what the 1 series is meant to achieve. The tii based on the 3 series with 350 hp is just going to cannibalize on the M3, isnt that where the higher margins are? The 135i will probably do the same for the 335i.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    The 1-series is what the 3-series should have been in the first place. It could stand to go on a diet too...
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,013
    Amen.

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,246
    But at less than 3,400 lbs, it's not that bad, is it? Considering all cars seem to have spent too much time at the drive-thru, I think it is worth considering this chassis could be trimmed to around 3,200 lbs under true tii engineering.

    I don't know...you guys know better than I. What else is available new at a 135i level of return (to a true enthusiast bent) in the market today? Yes, the argument for past BMW marvels aside, what is comparable today? Sooner or later, the old stands down to the creativity of tomorrow.

    Lancer EVO? STI? IS-F? RS-4?

    All these are "Super Size Me Please" variants of the past also. Is the 1'er the best of the worst for precision driving dynamics at the end of the day or a last-ditch effort to entice the past audience back into the show?

    Regards,
    OW
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "Drop the heavy stuff - sunroof, 19 inch wheels, power seats, insulation, worthless gizmos (self drying brakes, dual hvac, auto windshield wipers) and finally ditch the metal fenders for plastics.Maybe they can get 150-200 lbs out of the car."

    I heartily concur. ;)

    "Finally, ditch the inline 6 for a twin turbo 4, and lose another 200-300 lbs. Ah, now you've got a fun sedan at 3100 lbs."

    Oops, ya lost me there. Why? Well, several reasons actually:

    1) I'm a fan of smooth engines. The I6 that BMW uses is an engine type that is naturally in perfect balance, meanwhile, I4 engines are natural shakers with considerable second order (i.e. twice per revolution) vibrations. Granted, these vibrations can be counteracted with the use of balance shafts, however, said shafts add needless weight and complexity to the engine.

    2) like I said, I'm a fan of smooth engines, and in the world of four-stroke engines, unless an engine has at least five cylinders, it becomes a "push-me-pull-you" affair with the engine driving the flywheel and drive train during the power stroke of any one cylinder, and then the drivetrain and flywheel driving the engine between each power stroke. With BMWs I6 engine, not only do you get an engine that is in perfect mechanical balance, but you get one that is always supplying power to the flywheel and drivetrain.

    3) While I don't have the actual weights, I'm thinking that the composite metal blocked engine of the 3.0 liter engine in the E90 325i, 328i, and 330i is rather lighter than say Audi's iron blocked 2.0T. With the I6 engine design, all that is needed for vibration free engine is a block, a crank, and six piston/rod assemblies, With a high specific output blown I4, you typically have to cast the block out of lamellar graphite cast iron (GJL). Once you have the block, in addition to the crank and four piston/rod assemblies, you need to add two balance shafts (and the associated drive mechanisms), a turbocharger or two (and necessary plumbing and intercoolers and such), and a heavy flywheel that can help smooth out the torque reversals from the intermittent application of power.

    All-in-all, I'm thinking that I'd MUCH rather have a naturally aspirated I6 than a blown I4. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,093
    My sub 3000 pound 3 series coupe tomorrow after work. I bought a 1990 E30 325iA :shades:

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Nice job. ;)

    So, how difficult do you think it's going to be to delete the "A"? :shades:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • kyfdx%40Edmundskyfdx%40Edmunds Posts: 25,872
    Yeah... that's what I want to know..

    I'm guessing $1500-$2500?

    Moderator - Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "what is comparable today? Sooner or later, the old stands down to the creativity of tomorrow.

    Lancer EVO? STI? IS-F? RS-4?"


    Unfortunately, there's nothing comparable. 3500# is what these cars weigh today. The only current "lightweight" sports car with a backseat that I can think of is the RX-8 (and Porsche 911).

    That's why I keep my E30. It's basically a Honda S2000 with a hardtop and backseat.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I guess I don't see how adding a mere two cylinders transforms an out of balance engine into one that perfectly balanced. While I agree that a 4 cylinder engine probably has more NVH (noise, vibration & harshness) than a 6, an 8 (either a V-type or straight 8 like my grandmothers 50 Buick) should be still better, with a V12 or V16 at the optimum.

    An inline 6 is better than a 60 degree V6.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,246
    Perhaps they will create a .5 series...

    Regards,
    OW
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Well, whether you "see" it or not, it's the truth. Fact, I-6, H-6, V-12, and H-12 engines are naturally in balance for all free forces of both the first and second order, and free moments of the first and second order, and to the best of my knowledge are the only commonly built piston engines that are naturally in balance, and as such, naturally smooth.

    A discussion of the whys and hows of this balance issue is complex and long winded, and is way too over the top for the purposes of this forum. If you don't believe it, buy yourself a Bosch Automotive Handbook (I have one and it is a phenomenal wealth of information), or you can look at any number of web sites that discuss such things. Here are a few:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_balance
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_engine
    http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_help/html/Diagnosis/engine_speed_related.htm- -

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,093
    I actually first walked away from the car last Sunday after initially looking at it because it was an Automatic. A few voices in my head (roadburner & fedlawman) told me I was crazy. I'm actually going to learn to perform the maintenience on the car myself. Once I get it running well, then I'll swap out the slushbox for a 5-speed. ;)

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    What, it's an automatic?!?!

    I missed that part of your original message. Never mind, you shouldn't have bought it. :P
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I looked over your references, and while wikipedia is a good source it is not always entirely correct. They commented that straight eight engines did not have OHV which is not correct as the Buick Straight Eight had OHV beginning in the 1930's.

    I see your point about the straight six, but I still think that a nicely balanced V8 may be smoother running. Most sixes are V6 designs and are not as good.
  • alltorquealltorque Posts: 535
    It was drummed into me many years ago that the "smoothest", i.e. best naturally-balanced engines are 6's and 12's. 4's and 8's will always be less well naturally-balanced. No, can't explain why now but no doubt some of the pro engineers will be able to. Not sure about V6's as we didn't have many of those back in my day but we did have quite a few nice straight-6's; and they were very smooth if not terribly powerful by today's standards.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    If you look at shipo's references and follow on with some of the other references you will find that the V6 needs counter balancing to run smoothly. With counter balancing the V8 is very smooth running. I think shipo's point was that the inline six without counter balancing is smooth running, while other engines require some sort of balancing.

    As I see it, the size of an inline six for any particular vehicle will be limited by how much space is given to the hood length. For the same hood length, a V-engine will take up less space and can therefore be larger than the inline six, for up to 12 cylinders.
  • fphjr01fphjr01 Posts: 3
    I liked the comment about how "an increase in boost pressure should bring the hp from 300 to 355". This is interesting, considering that many of the available reviews on the 335's performance have indicated that the book 300hp claim is very likely low-balling the actual output.

    What a perfect idea -- make a 335 tii version, claim that there is 55 more hp than the standard engine (when it's actually exactly the same), and charge $5000 more for the 'modification'.
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