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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 2,629

    Re: The CLA. I believe C & D summed it up with, "When you pay half price for a MB, you get half of a MB."

    Looking forward to the new Jag models that are (hopefully) in the near future pipeline, especially the 3/A/C competitor model. While I'm enjoying the XF more and more each day, and it doesn't feel/drive as big and heavy as I know it is, I would have much preferred a slightly tidier package.

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,876

    @MrShift@Edmunds said: Too bad we couldn't combine all these different cars into one perfect one! Audi style + BMW engines + Benz CLA pricing + Acura reliability

    I will be first in line to buy that car, as soon as I can convince myself to part with the $$.

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  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 2,629

    How about: Jaguar style + BMW engines + Benz CLA pricing + Acura reliability

    Any Jaguar love out there? Actually, hopefully, maybe the rumoured upcoming XS will be just this magic elixir!

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,883

    Same as Audi styling pretty much, at least in the sedans---strikes me as copy-cat (no pun intended). What isn't Audi-like is "retro", and that's somewhat of a dead end, because how many variations of your own retro can you do....well, I suppose Mustang has gotten away with it....

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  • tifightertifighter WAPosts: 1,376

    15 Leaf / 08 RDX

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,238

    @tifighter said: The New TLX. I think I like it.

    autoblog.com/2014/01/14/2015-acura-tlx-detroit-2014/

    Tifighter....thanks!

    I'm really digging on that. Gotta wait at least another couple of years before I think about it, though.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,637

    @nyccarguy said: The board is definitely livening up a bit again. I like it. Infiniti's strong point in this segment with the Q50 are stunning good looks and gobs of power at a very reasonable price. The 3.7L VQ most definitely will not be as smooth as the German sixes. I would say Infiniti's V6 is smoother than BMW's N20 2.0 Turbo 4.

    I wondered what happened to the forum, since I stopped getting message, I see a whole new look..

    Since having my 320i now for 3 months, I can say that the smoothness is an issue, but since I have upgraded the ECU to the stage one, the extra power has really transformed the car. The harshness doesn't bother me at all, The 320 still have the feel of a BMW, the only positive that the Q50 has is the VQ engine, but that engine has it's issues too.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,637

    @graphicguy said: Thanks FN. Interesting that BMW went with the double turbo 3.0 instead of the usual V8s they've used in the past.

    Specs look pretty wicked. I like it.

    Any idea on pricing? I was thinking if things keep going with the S4 the way they've been goind, I might be interested in the 235i M. But, this looks quite interesting, too.

    Price for the new M 3/4 has not been set, but the speculations are starting about 57K. The idea of the twin turbo 6 has to do with the CAFE numbers, but since the 320, 328i and 328d are all exceeding their EPA rating, we might see more fun cars from BMW...

    Like you graphic, the M235i has caught my eye, for under 50K you can get yourself a car that is really a M2 (full M suspension, and other go fast items) with the turbo 6 with the performance pack standard. And with the huge aftermarket for that turbo six the sky is really the limit. Rick really likes the 320i, so I might be able to talk him into using his car on a trade in for the M235i...

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,591

    @flightnurse

    Glad you (and presumably Rick too) are happy with your 320i. My car is in for service and I got a brand spankin new 2014 328xd. This is the 3rd new body style 3 series I've driven. BMW seems to be trying (operative word here) to inject some of its "ultimate driving machine" magic more and more. I actually like the new 3er more and more as a commuter. While the steering is still too vague for my tastes, the ride is comfortable & taut, the 8 speed automatic is well matched to both the 4cyl gasser & 4cyl diesel.

    The diesel is a bit harsher than the 4cyl gas 320i & 328i. As expected, mid range torque is fantastic, but the most impressive thing of all is the diesel's fuel economy. A green engine (the car had 9 miles on it when I picked it up) is showing between 39 & 40 mpg average. Literally almost double what I get with my 2011 328xi.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,637

    @nyccarguy said: flightnurse

    Glad you (and presumably Rick too) are happy with your 320i. My car is in for service and I got a brand spankin new 2014 328xd. This is the 3rd new body style 3 series I've driven. BMW seems to be trying (operative word here) to inject some of its "ultimate driving machine" magic more and more. I actually like the new 3er more and more as a commuter. While the steering is still too vague for my tastes, the ride is comfortable & taut, the 8 speed automatic is well matched to both the 4cyl gasser & 4cyl diesel.

    The diesel is a bit harsher than the 4cyl gas 320i & 328i. As expected, mid range torque is fantastic, but the most impressive thing of all is the diesel's fuel economy. A green engine (the car had 9 miles on it when I picked it up) is showing between 39 & 40 mpg average. Literally almost double what I get with my 2011 328xi.

    Over on Bimmerfest people are posting 50 mpg (highway) on trips with a relatively "green" engine. and as the engine loosens up more the mpg will increase too. For a commuter car the 328d is really one of best cars to get, it is comfortable, can carry 4 adults without problems, and get the same and or better MPG then so called economy cars. People are posting some incredible lease deal they are getting on them too. A base 328d, with heated seats and moonroof, MSRP 41K, sale price 37K, Minus $750 built credit, $1000 USAA credit, $1000 BMWCC credit, and the killer part they are added 7 MSDs (Multi Security Deposits) out of pocket was $3750 36m/12K/yr payment are $365/m + tax. At the end of lease the $3750 will come back to them. The MSD are a hidden gem in the BMW lease deals...Granted you have to have the money to do, but if you do they are a great deal...

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,084
    edited January 15

    The new Acura TLX (and the press release comments) give me hope for the brand. I am going to assume the engineers and designers at Acura have banished as much of the "Honda Effect" as possible. I see no harm in some power train sharing, for example, but Acura needs to be a brand that stands out as a Brand, not just an upscale Honda.

    For years (and I know since I owned examples of both brands), it was quite easy to see the resemblance and lineage of Audi and VW. I assume it was Audi who made the decision to "go their own way" not the other way around. The result has been beneficial to both brands.

    The new Q50 (recently reviewed -- and not all that favorably -- on MotorWeek) got the style right as far as I am concerned. The 3.7L engine has been made to feel much smoother and the interior is more upscale befitting Infiniti's aspirations. Thus far, however, the reviews of the Q50 have been, well, underwhelming. I suspect the driving dynamics that the experts loved in the G37 will need to return and be improved upon sooner rather than later.

    The IS from Lexus -- in IS 350 F Sport trim -- seems to have gotten everything right, not so much however the lesser IS's, especially the 250 which has recently been given mostly "thumb's down."

    Now, along comes Acura with what appears to be a sparkling, spanky new TL(X). Acura, for the past few years, has been apparently wandering aimlessly (with the exception of the MDX, one of Acura's 'reasons for being') -- are they a Premium car-line or are they drifting further away with each passing year (a halo car, which is looking good, ain't enough to redeem them, yet). This new TLX is, from the web pictures a looker -- and the marketing message is pretty darn strong. Like the Q50 and the IS 350 F Sport, however, the proof will be when the automotive press gets their hands on the thing in several states of trim.

    Despite my "one and done" Acura TL SH-AWD flirtation and my subsequent return to Audi (with an S4 none the less), I did think the Acura was a decent attempt at creating an ELLPS; I still think the 2012 and newer Acura TL SH-AWD models were Acura's S4, and a high value vehicle, too.

    So, here's hoping Acura's glintzy (a made up word) new TLX lives up to our expectations as well as its press release. As Van Morrison said (adapted here to mean "These are the days to be in the market for a new ELLPS"):

    "These are the days, the time is now There is no past, there's only future There's only here, there's only now."

    Get 'em while they're hot.

    And, drive it like you live.

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,084

    Oops, I see I said Acura was wondering when what I meant was "wandering." Pardon me. Isn't there any way to edit these posts any more?

  • MichaellMichaell ColoradoPosts: 5,135

    @markcincinnati said: Oops, I see I said Acura was wondering when what I meant was "wandering." Pardon me. Isn't there any way to edit these posts any more?

    If you hover over the post, you'll see a 'gear' icon. Click on it and you can edit your post. You now have a 4 hour window to do so.

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  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,084

    Michaell - Cool. Edited! Thanks!

  • dash5dash5 Posts: 418

    I'm with Mark on the new TLX. It's definitely on my list of "must try" as of now. Of course that is pending reviews. As far as looks though, great. The talk is all right on track for me too: performance, quiet cabin, tech.

    It's still got plenty of hurdles to clear though. I'm picky with interiors. I love Audi in that regard. I certainly prefer Honda/Acura to Toyota/Lexus interiors, but we will see what we get here.

    On top of that they will be contending with the upcoming A3 sedan and the CLA. I'm glad to see this new class being competitive!

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,472

    that spy shot of the TLX did look sharp. Not worried about the interior. They seem to have been doing a good job there.

    I am curious to see what they do for powertrain. Since it is replacing the TL and TSX, will they go with a 4/6/hybrid? Turbo something?

    Will also be nice if it frees up the ILX for a power boost. Basically use the 2.4l on a mid-level AT model, not just the "hot rod'. That IMO will make it a much more desirable option since it will be plenty quick. Keep the 2.0l for the base car, and have the 2.4 as the upgrade.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (daughter stole that one), and 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again)

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,084

    The SH-AWD version will have the 3.5L V6 and a 9-speed dual clutch transmission, at least I think it said dual clutch (the 9-speed I am sure of).

    My 2012 TL had a 3.7L V6 rated at 305 HP -- which, these days is close to being too little (unless there is a big torque number that comes on at relatively low RPM's). I would assume Acura has goosed things appropriately all the way around.

    With respect to the interior -- well, most folks did not and do not seem to make favorable comments about the "button-happy" interior and steering wheel. Once I got used to things, it never really bothered me, but the 2012 interior was not what I would call "premium" -- it seemed like, well, TOO MUCH Honda Accord DNA had seeped into it.

    Looking at the Audi interiors often spoils [most] people for others interior treatments. I count myself as one of those so spoiled.

    I am, however, confident, that Acura will probably get the interior right this time. But wait -- it is probably going to be very much like the RLX, which has been recently criticized for still being too busy.

  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,820

    @stickguy said:> I am curious to see what they do for powertrain. Since it is replacing the TL and TSX, will they go with a 4/6/hybrid? Turbo something?

    New 2.4 at about 200 HP with an 8 speed dual clutch auto with a torque converter and a 9 speed auto. SH-AWD and 4 wheel steering available on the 6.

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,238

    @stickguy said: that spy shot of the TLX did look sharp. Not worried about the interior. They seem to have been doing a good job there.

    I am curious to see what they do for powertrain. Since it is replacing the TL and TSX, will they go with a 4/6/hybrid? Turbo something?

    Will also be nice if it frees up the ILX for a power boost. Basically use the 2.4l on a mid-level AT model, not just the "hot rod'. That IMO will make it a much more desirable option since it will be plenty quick. Keep the 2.0l for the base car, and have the 2.4 as the upgrade.

    I believe Acura was pretty early to the 300+ HP V6 party. I know my Mustang GT SOHC V8 had 300 HP less than 10 years ago. BMW is still touting their twin scroll turbo 6 as 300 HP (albeit I suspect that's under rated). The Lexus (x)S 350 V6 is right at that mark, too. The Infiniti V6 in the Q/G sedans have more HP, but are down on torque compared to the Acura V6.

    Audi uses a S/C on their 6 cyl, and is a great performer. Their 4 cyl is 220HP but is torquey.

    So, I think Acura is dead on if they end up with a 210-230 HP 4 cyl and a 310-320 HP V6. Again, 8 sp DCT or 9 sp transmissions put them right at the front of the class, too.

    Mark, I don't think Acura gives up anything to the Audi's interior in materials, build, or functionality. Like you, I've owned both. Still say the ELS sound system in the current TL trumps the B&O system in the S4.

    I'm into my new TL for at least 2-3 more years. After that, I'll be in my Acura store first visit of any shopping trip.

  • shalabshalab Posts: 1

    I have the C250 and I love it...minus the tire issues that I've had. The tires are very sensitive. I've replaced a tire and fixed 2 flats in 6 months.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,637

    Damn I was far off...Glad I did not bet on it

    2015 F80 M3: $62,000

    2015 F82 M4: $64,200

    Destination and handling $925 (currently - subject to change)

    Manual transmission is standard with DCT being an add-on option. This represents a serious jump in pricing over the out going E90 and E92 M3 factoring in inflation, high tech construction with carbon fiber and additional base equipment it is not out of line and cheaper then some expected. Package and option will be similar to F30/F32 pricing, for more ordering information take a peak at the M3/M4 dealer demo ordering sheets.

    BMW M3 / M4 Timeline January 18th-26th - Public debut at Detroit Auto Show End of January, early February - Full dealer pricing and order guides released February - Dealers allocations assigned and customer order bank opens March - Stat of Production for dealer demo and launch cars Late April - Start of production for customer cars. Mid June - Press drive and media launch Late June - Customer deliveries start and European Delivery begin

    About the F80 M3 and F82 M4 The all-new BMW M3 Sedan and first-ever BMW M4 Coupe are examples of the legendary BMW M engineering which emphasizes a synthesis of motorsport technology with unrestricted daily driving versatility. World-class engine and powertrain technologies, along with intelligent lightweight vehicle construction through extensive use of exotic construction materials, add to the intensity of the M feeling and driving experience. The extensive weight-reduction efforts of the BMW M engineers should not be under looked. The new BMW M3 and BMW M4 are the first BMW M cars to see a reduction in curb weight from one generation to the next. Both models are equipped with an all-new 3.0-liter inline-6 engine with M TwinPower Turbo technology and increased performance levels that distinguish them from previous generations of the M3 family, delivering 425 horsepower and 406 lb-ft of torque. Both the M3 Sedan and M4 Coupe accelerate from 0 to 60 mph in 3.9 seconds when equipped with the optional M-DCT transmission. By setting new segment standards in terms of dynamics, agility, precise handling and emotional design, the new BMW M3 Sedan and BMW M4 Coupe have set the benchmark for the high-performance segment created by the M3 many years ago.

    For the full run down

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,238

    FN....thanks for the BMW M update. I'll have to check out their pics from the NAIAS.

  • dash5dash5 Posts: 418

    The TL was a car I wanted to like but just couldnt make it happen. This segment is too full of excellent competitors to misfire on any one thing too badly. The TL just fell a bit short in both interior and exterior for me. Felt too much like a slightly better Accord for a lot more money.

    Ironically I ended up with a Kia ;) So I'm not necessarily into the badge thing, more the value. I didnt feel like the Acura sedans were enough of a value.

    This new TLX though is high on my watch list. Right there with the A3/S3.

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,238

    FN.....I just totally read your link to the M cars. Interestingly, the twin turbo straight 6 is still being used. I thought them giving up on V8s for M Power, and having what appeared to be the more recent "twin sroll" turbo charger, they would "tweak" the latter given how it's a more recent engine than the twin turbocharger unit.

    But, they are getting great performance out of it. As they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

    Still can't wait to see the 235i M car.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,637

    @graphicguy said: FN.....I just totally read your link to the M cars. Interestingly, the twin turbo straight 6 is still being used. I thought them giving up on V8s for M Power, and having what appeared to be the more recent "twin sroll" turbo charger, they would "tweak" the latter given how it's a more recent engine than the twin turbocharger unit.

    But, they are getting great performance out of it. As they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

    Still can't wait to see the 235i M car.

    The new engine is all for CAFE and Emission nazi's.. While the V8 was nice, the torque figures were horrible, the new 6 cyl makes almost double of the V8... So the new M cars will really push you into the seat.

    Also the weight difference between the M235i and M3/4 cars is significant, being that the M3/4 cars weight less.... I' with you graphic, the new M235i will be the car to get, back to the basic's and for about $44K.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,637

    @graphicguy said:

    Still can't wait to see the 235i M car.

    Here it is the M235i

    All the info you want and more... and yes you can now build one on BMW website

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,238

    Thanks FN!

  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,628

    @flightnurse said: All the info you want and more... and yes you can now build one on BMW website

    Pretty limited choice of colors! Three shades of grey (including black sapphire metallic which is really a very dark grey), two whites, a red that's not as vibrant as the old Imola Red and an odd blue.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,238

    @andys120 said:

    andys....both of my BMWs were black saphire metalic. They were a deep black with metal flake. I liked the mineral grey (but only with red leather), and the mineral white (but only with tan leather).

    For years I've bemoaned all of these car companies choices (or lack thereof) of color choices however.

    Gimme a couple of blues, or some crimson.

    It's not just BMW. It's Acura, Mercedes and all the rest, too. The only one who seemingly give better color choices these days is Cadillac.

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