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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,510

    @stickguy said:

    Volvo ED is nice, but the pricing is only attractive when there are no big cash incentives. However, Volvo frequently throws those in, sometimes thousands - which makes ED price is not so great, in comparison. Unlike BMW, Volvo's ED pricing is non-negotiable, like all others, it does not include incentives - however, you sometimes can get an extra discount (usually $500 or so) on certain prebuilt models waiting in Sweden. And you still get the ticket, one night at the hotel and the dinner, and you can have a free car rental for couple of weeks. It is worth something, if you plan to go anyway.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • tifightertifighter WAPosts: 1,384

    The Accord (TSX) has been a sales disaster in Europe. Creating a new generation for that market would have to look like poor ROI from the accounting department's perspective. And its not like it sells much in Japan either.

    15 Leaf / 08 RDX

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,930

    GG, the 270 HP one? That would be fun. I was hoping they would just take a version of the current 2.4l and offer it with the AT, not just the 6 speed Si clone.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's) and 2007 Volvo S40 (mine)

  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,900
    edited January 24

    @tifighter said: The Accord (TSX) has been a sales disaster in Europe. Creating a new generation for that market would have to look like poor ROI from the accounting department's perspective. And its not like it sells much in Japan either.

    Well considering Honda sold only 120K cars in the Europe last year (out of about 12 million) it's hard to say that any of their products are "successful."

    In reality, 4 door mid-size family sedans aka executive saloons don't sell well in Europe.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,510

    @robr2 said:

    Honda has a "special" status in Europe. It's a brand that everybody recognizes and respects, but not many people buy. Pricing is the issue. Their product is too expensive there, plain and simple. Some of that has to do with tarriffs (for products that are not made in EU), some with market positioning. My dad used to have Japanese made Civic and it was a great vehicle. No perfect, but worked well. He sold it for a nice price when it was time to move on. But the customer base is simply too small for mass-market brand ambitions and price is the root.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,900

    @dino001 said: Honda has a "special" status in Europe. It's a brand that everybody recognizes and respects, but not many people buy. Pricing is the issue.

    I can see that considering that Dacia was the fastest growing brand in the EU last year.

  • dash5dash5 Posts: 418

    @graphicguy said: Hearing some scuttlebut about the new 4 cyl in the upcoming Acura TLX. ~280HP with 270 torque at 1,500 rpm. That will be combined with a DCT trans (8-speed). It also includes Acura's 4 wheel steering (P-AWS) That sounds to be a good performer.

    If you follow the trend, the SH AWD version will have a 9 speed trans and a 3.5L V6. Guessing that it will put out something in the 310-325 HP range.

    Works for me. So right now the TSX V6 with tech is being shown here as ~37K TMV. I hope they keep it under 40.

    How long do I have to wait for some first drive reviews of this car?

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,308

    @dash5 said: Works for me. So right now the TSX V6 with tech is being shown here as ~37K TMV. I hope they keep it under 40.

    How long do I have to wait for some first drive reviews of this car?

    I'm guessing the TLX shown on Detroit is probably pretty close to production ready.

    If I were a betting man, you would probably see the '15 TLX somewhere in the July to September time frame by the time they reach dealerships.

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,093

    I'd bet Acura wants to get the TLX to dealers very soon -- however, there will have to be a bit of a balancing act in that the current TL inventory will have to be taken into consideration, so that the new TLX doesn't force the 2014 TL to be discounted until it hurts.

    My Audi dealer says that based on current inventory, it is now typical for the new cars (without owners names attached already) to be held "in port" whilst the current inventory is worked down.

    I guess we should appreciate that approach (if we are already owners) since it would seem to help preserve, somewhat, the value of the current model.

    I remember when I could go into a dealership and there would be plenty of leftover "last year models" gathering dust until the deep discounting started them moving again. Don't see that so much anymore.

    I'm gonna "forecast" the TLX will fare better with the pro reviewers and enthusiasts' magazines than did the Q50 from Infiniti.

    Been wrong before. :o

    DILYL

  • dash5dash5 Posts: 418

    Personally I'm waiting on the A3/S3 and this TLX. Although this go around I am thinking lease. How well do Acura's lease? Another concern is that these are new models.

  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,900

    Acura tends to have some of the highest residual values - they don't lease well unless Honda is supporting the lease price.

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,930

    @dash5 said: Personally I'm waiting on the A3/S3 and this TLX. Although this go around I am thinking lease. How well do Acura's lease? Another concern is that these are new models.

    Would not worry much about the acura being a new model. Especially on a lease. I got an early redesign RDX and it was flawless.

    Auras will lease well when not selling for sure. Out of the gate not likely to see anything special on a brand new design.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's) and 2007 Volvo S40 (mine)

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,308

    BMW probably does the most to subsidize their leases. I think Mercedes does, too.

    I'm not a lease person, so don't know about any of the other manufacturers. But, plenty here have leased BMWs, so I'm going from what they've posted.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,648

    @robr2 said: Acura tends to have some of the highest residual values - they don't lease well unless Honda is supporting the lease price.

    what are the residual rates for the TL, and MDX?

    Currently all of the 3 series and 4 series cars are 60+% for a 3 year lease.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,648

    @graphicguy said: BMW probably does the most to subsidize their leases. I think Mercedes does, too.

    I'm not a lease person, so don't know about any of the other manufacturers. But, plenty here have leased BMWs, so I'm going from what they've posted.

    I wouldn't call it subsidizes they have programs...

    Both BMW and MB have what are called Multi Security Deposits. BMW has a max of 7 and MB has a max of 10. Basically what happens is for each MSD put down lowers your MF what is nice, you get the MSD's back at the end of lease.

    So you save on a lease roughly $1500 on the total lease payments plus you get your full MSDs back, so it's a win win...

  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,900

    @flightnurse said: what are the residual rates for the TL, and MDX?

    TL is 55-57% and MDX is 50-52% on a 36 month lease.

    Both BMW and MB have what are called Multi Security Deposits. BMW has a max of 7 and MB has a max of 10. Basically what happens is for each MSD put down lowers your MF what is nice, you get the MSD's back at the end of lease.

    The only drawback is the one doesn't have access to that money during the lease period should one have a need for it.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,244
    edited January 29

    @robr2 said: The only drawback is the one doesn't have access to that money during the lease period should one have a need for it.

    I see that someone on that forum calculated the investment return when he added 7 X $700 MSD, and it worked out to 19.3% return on his $4900 (total return for duration of his 24 month lease). That's at least as good as most people can earn in private conservative investment.

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,016

    Did you mean 1.93%? If you know where one can earn 19.3% in a conservative investment.......please share. Is Bernie back at it???

  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,900

    @MrShift@Edmunds said: I see that someone on that forum calculated the investment return when he added 7 X $700 MSD, and it worked out to 19.3% return on his $4900 (total return for duration of his 24 month lease). That's at least as good as most people can earn in private conservative investment.

    I read that as well. Putting $4900 down as a security deposit reduced the monthly payment by $40 a month. Over 24 months, the return was over 19%.

    But I'm guessing those that can afford to tie up $5K for 2 years aren't stretching to buy a 328 for $300 a month.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,244

    Oh I don't know. There are some well to do people who are pretty tight with a buck. I have no idea how popular these MSDs are.

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,900

    Good point - but I'll turn it around:

    I'm guessing that those who are stretching to lease a 328 for $300 a month don't have $5K to tie up for 2 years.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,648

    @MrShift@Edmunds said: Oh I don't know. There are some well to do people who are pretty tight with a buck. I have no idea how popular these MSDs are.

    The really sad part is, BMW dealers don't talk about MSD's. I would assume those in the KNOW about them use them.

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,756

    Thinking back about MSDs, I should have taken the equity from my Acura and paid as many MSDs as I could to both lower the payment and get the cash back at the end of the lease (September). Problem is that the dealer that I bought from (who gave me the best price for my 3er and my trade) is in NY, a state that does not allow the use of MSDs. Instead I used the equity plus my $500 BMWCCA rebate to pay up front fees (Acquisition, DMV...) plus my 1st 9 lease payments. If I would have bought the car where I live in CT, I could have paid MSDs up front. Who knows, they might not have given me as much for my trade and hit me with a $499 doc fee. Thinking about it now, that would have been a better use of the "free money." Now I know for next time:)

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,756

    @robr2

    You are right, they might not have the $5K to lay out for MSDs, but they'll "put down" $2995 as a cap cost reduction not realizing that if their car gets stolen or totaled at any point during the lease they loose that money.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,648

    @nyccarguy I was not aware that MSDs were not allowed in NY.. In retrospect a deal in CT with the MSDs could have gotten you lower payments, but the sale price could have been more. We live and learn. What are you going to do when you 328i is up ?

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,016
    edited January 29

    @MrShift@Edmunds said: Oh I don't know. There are some well to do people who are pretty tight with a buck. I have no idea how popular these MSDs are.

    Agree. Many, many people that could simply write a check for one of these cars if they wanted to are in that position by taking advantage of saving money when possible. There is a difference between being frugal and being cheap. I would do that deal if I was into leasing for that kind of return in a heartbeat. I've got a pretty good chunk in money market funds that return much less than 1%, so letting someone hang onto my money for two years for a 19% return would make all kinds of sense.

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,756

    @flightnurse

    I do truly love the way my car drives. To put it simply, it is the car that I'll look to compare every other. It is the 1st, but don't think it will be the last E90 I own. I'm definitely not going to buy the lease out because the residual is too high and I'll have somewhere in the neighborhood of 50,000 miles on it when the lease is up at the end of September. I'm going to go for something less expensive for the time being. I'll lease something like an Accord or Subaru Impreza 5 door and share it with my wife for 15K per year (when she drives the new car, I'll drive her Pilot or my Prelude when the weather is nice). Once my BMW lease is up, I'll only have 18 months left to pay off the Pilot. I might be able to pay the Pilot off a little earlier too. 1 car payment would be nice.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,794

    I've done MSDs twice... Once on a BMW and once on an Infiniti. Plenty of leasers are looking for the killer deal. Believe me, there is no way I'd be in the market for a $40K-$50K car, if I was buying it. (even if I could technically afford it). So, if I can knock a payment down from $430/mo. to $378/mo. using MSDs, you can bet that weighs heavily on whether to get that vehicle....

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,794

    Not that I'd call it conservative... or even, likely repeatable... but, my portfolio was up 35% last year (as were most of those heavily invested in equity index funds).

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,093
    edited January 29

    Regarding the statements: " BMW probably does the most to subsidize their leases. I think Mercedes does, too." And: "I wouldn't call it subsidizes they have programs..."

    Well, the truth of the matter is that BMW [among others] does provide "financial support" for leases made through their financial companies. This support is often (usually) called a "sub-vented lease."

    Subventing makes leasing more attractive to the buyer who doesn't care so much about the MSRP of a given vehicle, but does care about the monthly payment. Either a purchase or a lease "deal" can be subvented -- but the real impact of subventing is going to be able to be much greater for a lease than a loan.

    The best thing that can be done regarding a loan to buy a new car is that the interest rate charged can be set to zero (0% apr). This way a $36,000 car can be purchased and the payments determined by dividing $36,000 by the number of months that payments will be made. $36,000 divided by 36 months, then, equals DOH! a $1,000 per month payment.

    I assume we could stretch the point and say that the manufacturer could offer a "loyalty" or "conquest" or even a "just because" bonus or rebate or discount of $1,000, making the amount financed be only $35,000, meaning the payment would be $35,000 divided by 36 months or $972.22/month.

    A subvented lease, on the other hand, is where the mfg can really influence your "purchase" decision. Here's why.

    When you lease a new car, the payment will be determined (generally speaking) by several things:

    1.The % of value (residual value) that the car will have at the end of the lease

    2.The money factor (think of it as the interest rate) that is used.

    Roughly speaking you can calculate the lease payment (remember the word "roughly") by subtracting the residual value from the MSRP of the car to get your anticipated usage cost.

    If the car is $36,000 and its residual is 50%, your usage over 36 months is $18,000. If you put money (out of your pocket) as what you might term a "down payment" you will reduce the amount of the "agreement" by that amount (this is called a capitalized cost reduction).

    This "down payment" [in your mind] does not reduce the residual value of the car, meaning that if you decided to buy the car at the end of the lease the amount you will have to come up with will still be $18,000. Please, don't call any money down on a conventional (closed-end) lease a down payment and I won't either. It is a "cap cost reduction" -- and the purpose of this cap cost reduction is solely to reduce the monthly payment. You are NOT building up any value, post lease, whatsoever.

    The money factor (or the implied cost of money -- or interest rate) is applied to recognize the value of the "time" you have the auto mfg's finance arm's money tied up.

    Far more detailed explanations -- and explanations that are specific to your lease deal -- are available here on Edmunds and of course at your dealership.

    The bottom line, however, is this: the auto manufacturer's financial outlet may offer a lease to you that has been subvented by the manufacturer. The subventing can take the form of:

    • A reduction of the money factor -- including taking it to zero; or,
    • An increase of the residual % -- including taking it to a very optimistic % (+5% or even more) -- meaning the car will be said to be worth a much larger percentage of its brand new value than market conditions would likely support.

    This manipulation of the residual cannot be done when the car is financed outright -- so perhaps you can see that a subvented lease could produce a very very low monthly payment if the mfg decides to reduce the money factor to zero or near zero and increases the residual value significantly over the expected depreciation.

    Subvented leases often carry with them terms that are not as "friendly" to you as a straight buy with a loan or a lease that has not been subvented.

    If the manufacturer says the residual is 62% after 36 months and the reality of the situation is that the 36 month value should only be 55%, you may not be able to get out of your lease early without a huge $ penalty (plus perhaps a standalone early termination fee or penalty).

    If you buy and finance a car, you can sell or trade you car almost at any time and only pay the potential difference between the outstanding loan amount and the amount you can sell the car for. It may feel like a prepayment penalty, but the reality is that there will be no literal prepayment penalty (it is uncommon for an auto loan from a bank, for instance, to have a prepayment penalty -- if you want to get out of the loan, you can sell the car and give the proceeds to the bank plus a bit more out of your pocket or perhaps a check from the bank.)

    So, leases give, leases take. Leases are sometimes of the very, very low payment variety -- meaning there is some subventing going on and suggesting that you'd better be prepared to not fall out of love with your new baby for "about 90%" of the lease's term. I say that because it is also common practice to put customers in 39 month leases and then around month 33 start to seduce "owners" into the showrooms with the promise of letting them out of their leases without penalties if they re-lease the new model.

    BMW does have a reputation -- I assume well founded -- for "supporting" (subventing) leases. This can make getting into a $50,000 Bimmer "within reach." It also pretty much locks customers into the cycle of "lease, burn through the lease, and re-lease" again and again.

    Nothing wrong with that for a lot of consumers. But not for all.

    • If you want to keep your car 5 years or longer, you may not find leasing economics works for you;
    • If you drive more than 18,000 miles per year (and probably the message could be "more than 15,000 miles per year), you may not find leasing economics works for you (as your residual will likely drop sharply, meaning the monthly payment will rise sharply in response);
    • If you own a business, on the other hand, leasing may mean you can "expense your lease payment" to the company (with proper and available proof), which many would consider to be a good thing;
    • If you want to build equity in your car, well that is "highly" (or at least "fairly") unlikely in a leased car, but more likely in a car that you are making payments on to buy.

    And the pros of leasing AND buying go on.

    Neither my wife nor I had ever purchased a car, until late 2013 when we bought her '14 Audi SQ5 Prestige; we also lease a '14 Audi S4 (and are fully intending, 4 months into the lease, to buy the thing at the end of the lease -- and we put NO money down on the lease). This is a new experience for us and we keep rationalizing that -- at this time -- buying (for us) will likely turn out to be a better deal since we intend on keeping the cars more than 5 years.

    So, my point in all that is above is this: Auto manufacturers DO indeed provide financial subsidies (i.e., named subvented lease programs). Multiple security deposits are NOT, strictly speaking, subsidies, however.

    • DILYL :o
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