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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans



  • I am starting to like you.
    Almost forgot, tons of compliments just keep raining in on my White Diamond Pearl TL AWD. This gentleman at church told me to take good care of his car (meaning my car).
    As another poster would say-

    Happy Motoring!!!
  • edwardsfedwardsf Posts: 187
    edited September 2010
    I asked you for data to support your long series of posts adamently claiming that a big reason people buy German cars is for prestige. You then supplied the data for headroom. Huh? Then I refute your data by stating that manufacturer space spec discrepancies are well known and you sound like I took your candy away.

    Please try reading the actual posts and responding to the actual text of the posts. It make the thread go better. For instance, if I say the 328 has better highway mpg than the other cars in its class, you are not responding to that statement by saying "the 3-Series is not the best fuel economy vehicle in its class." That is what is called a strawman. Since you do it repeatedly, I doubt I can convince you to stop but I will try anyway. I did not refer to overall fuel economy as city mpg was not important to me in my purchase. I, like a lot of other people, drive very little city miles as I walk or ride my bike to work.

    If I say that the cars you selectively posted are not a good representation of the 328 competitors, you are not responding to my post by saying "those competitor models get either better or the same fuel mpg then the 3-Series or puts them down regardless." First, I don't know what the heck that sentence means and second, my statement stands unrefuted. But if you want putdowns, here is one for you: the IS250 is blingy Scion tC. Please don't compare it to the 3 series.

    Also, I agree that no one cares about one's anecdotal experiences in beating the EPA numbers. However, people do seem to care about the dozens of reports from owners that could amount to some cumulative evidence about the real world operation of the vehicle that they are considering. (The EPA numbers are helpful for emissions though.)

    I do agree with one line in your post: "apparently I'm some Acura fan boy who hates all German vehicles;"
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,653
    on a side note...

    My wife used my IS350 for her church ladies it makes a squeaky sound.

    Sounds like a bearing...or something.

    Doesn't sound sporty or luxurious.

    Luckily the 'wild pig' she claimed ran out and hit the side of her mini-van didn't get my IS...that darned pig left a white paint streak :surprise:
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,052
    did you give your dad a ride home?? joking, good for you billy - you must keep it nice...
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,708
    My real issue with the 3 series is that it's now a seriously overweight and misguided vehicle when you compare it to its roots. It just is a very fancy and plush "sedan". Now, it might be among the best in its class, but that's a lot like the "class" that includes cars like a Camry and Accord. Being the best of bland isn't what I want. And neither is "overweight and boring euro sedan".

    If you want a real sport sedan experience, you need three components(manual is a given):
    1 - RWD
    2 - Inline engine, preferably an I-6 or turbo 4 180-200HP minimum.
    3 - curb weight under 3000lbs. Preferably 2800.

    Nothing on the market fits this, though a few coupes and roadsters do. But just under 3600lbs is entirely in the wrong universe.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    edited September 2010
    The problem is that, in this era of airbags, anti-crush passenger zones, and gizmo packed cars, I seriously doubt any company could build your "real sport sedan" for an affordable price.

    FWIW #1, the 2011 328i weighs in at 3,362 pounds, only 165 pounds more than my 1999 328i. Not too shabby.

    FWIW #2, the last time a 3-Series sedan with an I6 engine weighed 3,000 or less was 1991 (although the 1992 tipped the scales at 3,021 lbs.).

    FWIW #3, given that the MUCH more capable 2011 328i weighs only 341 pounds more than the 1992 325i, I think BMW did a pretty good job at packaging all of the new safety requirements, structural integrity and extra size. Personally if I was given the option of the 1992 or the 2011, I'd choose the 2011 every time (although I would almost immediately chuck the RFTs in favor of a good set of GFTs, a move that will knock another 25 pounds of weight off the car). :)

    Best regards,
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 16,907
    Not to mention...

    '92 = 15.98lbs/hp and 16.69lbs/ft-lb. Peak torque 4700rpm. Mileage 19mpg average.
    '11 = 14.62lbs/hp and 16.81lbs/ft-lb. Peak torque 2750rpm. Mileage 22mpg average.

    And while I don't have the data to back it up, I'm pretty confident in saying a stock '11 would whoop a stock '92 around any track, even with the extra 300lbs. Progress ain't always a bad thing.

    Now, don't get me wrong. I hate weight, too. Just can't have it all for a reasonable price, though.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '08 Town&Country

  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,477
    edited September 2010
    ‘. . . almost immediately chuck the RFTs in favor of a good set of GFTs, a move that will knock another 25 pounds of weight off the car).’

    Have you driven a 2011?
    Not having driven a 335 since I bought what I have now, I was rather impressed with the ride in 2 335iS [ coupes ] that I have recently driven – both with 19” runflats. I have read that the dampers were changed. The ride was quite acceptable – and noticeably better than I recall from driving 2009s.
    - Ray
    Just one data point . . .
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    edited September 2010
    The point is that no matter how much better the suspension gets at dealing with the extra unsprung weight of the RFTs, the ride and handling of the car will significantly improve by putting substanitally lighter GFTs on the car; and to a lesser degree, the acceleration and braking will improve as well.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,477
    Does the 3 have a 'well' in the trunk for
    a full sized spare?
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Nope, but the well looks large enough for a couple of cans of goo. ;)
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    edited September 2010
    I provided facts about the 3-Series not having the best highway mpg; by the way, those vehicles are the 3-Series competitors in price, features, size in some cases, etc if you do not think so then you do not know the entry-lux segment well at all: you can come up with all the excuses why your right but guess what, no one cares

    You can use all the personal anecdotes you want from your own personal experience for mpg but what comes down to comparing between vehicles is what the epa and manufacturers say their fuel ratings are: why don't you provide a link about manufacturer discrepancies in mpg; I think its a bunch of bull b/c if anything, in the last 10 years, the epa and manufacturer mpg estimates have gotten pretty accurate a cross the board, compared to before that time, and I've seen this pretty consistently supported on all the personal avgs I've seen people report on the various auto boards I belong to; if you don't want to believe that, its your own problem.

    you can't say that no one cars about personal reports of people's mpg experiences but then its okay to take the numbers reported personally from a group of a few dozen or a few hundreds, which is what your saying; its still not that big of a population size compared to the tens of thousands or hundred of thousand owners of these vehicles

    There is no need to provide links and stats for my statement about prestige being a factor in BMW and MB purchases. This is real easy but you seem to not understand nor would I provide links since your going to just dismiss them and thus waste my time.

    1) German vehicles have lower resale values then their Japanese counterparts (look at ALG for that one)
    2) On a whole, the German manufacturers still do not have the long-term reliability and less problems their Japanese counterparts have ON AVERAGE (look at CR long-term reliability history charts specifically). Can also say, the chance of getting a problem littered German vehicle is still slightly higher than the chance of getting a problem littered Japanese vehicle
    3) similar equipped BMW/MB and Japanese vehicles do not cost the same amount with the Germans having a few thousand price premium (just build them on each website with same equipment to find this out)

    Those 3 FACTS indicate that, SIMILARLY EQUIPPED Japanese vs German luxury vehicles are giving the Japanese a better financial decision to get. But, there are a lot of people not choosing the Japanese vehicle and opting for the more expensive, more depreciating, higher chance possibility of problem littered German vehicle. Some people making that decision HAVE to be doing based on the prestige/ reputation factor that MB and BMW have.

    Now, as you conveniently leave out every post you respond to and don't say, I've said time and time again, not ALL people are making that decision based on prestige, though you are trying to make it out that is what I'm saying; I've said before, some are making that decision for other reasons, like performance advantage, luxury comfort factors, etc but prestige is a factor. Maybe its not called prestige, maybe its called something else, you can make up your own word, I don't care, just get over it.

    Again, you took my comment out of context that I said at the end of my post to try and make it appear I'm anti-German and that couldn't be further from the truth
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,024
    If you want a real sport sedan experience, you need three components(manual is a given):
    1 - RWD
    2 - Inline engine, preferably an I-6 or turbo 4 180-200HP minimum.
    3 - curb weight under 3000lbs. Preferably 2800.

    My 318ti Club Sport comes close; 2700 lbs. and 150 bhp. In a few years I'm going to fit a stroker motor that will up the power to around 220 bhp. I have to say I really like light tossable cars- my old 2002 may be a tad bit slow but with less than 2400 lbs. to carry around it is a real blast on a winding road.

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "Those 3 FACTS indicate that, SIMILARLY EQUIPPED Japanese vs German luxury vehicles are giving the Japanese a better financial decision to get."

    The problem I see with this statement is that they are not similarly equipped.

    I know you're talking about heated this, and bluetooth that, but much of the value in a European car is not in the bells and whistles, it's in the engineering.

    I can go to KMart and buy a wood veneer dining room set for $500 that looks and functions a lot like a $2000 Ethan Allen set. Which one is the better value?

    I guess it all comes down to how much "value" one places in having an in-line 6 engine, superb steering feel, and near-perfect chassis balance vs. 19" wheels, iPod integration, and a 30GB hard drive.

    I know which features I prefer...

    And, by the way, the days of the true "sport sedan" are long gone and not coming back. But this thread isn't about sport sedans anyways - it's about entry-level luxury sport sedans. Big difference. Mentioning sport sedans in this thread is simply off-topic.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,702
    edited September 2010
    I just lament the growth in size of these vehicles. I have an '05 TL and it is bigger than I like. My next car is going to be smaller. IMHO the new TSX is also way too big.

    I had a '98 A4 and it was just fabulous. But even that car has bloated up.

    I know it is OT, but have you seen the ugliness and the increased size of the new Jetta? OMG. :surprise:
  • I have only been reviewing this thread for a short time but I find this statement interesting...

    "Those 3 FACTS indicate that, SIMILARLY EQUIPPED Japanese vs German luxury vehicles are giving the Japanese a better financial decision to get"

    If you are only looking dollars and cents, then a Honda provides what your acura does at a lower price

    This whole line of bantering is silly any way - the best car is each of our opinion. I have had my car over 2 years now and it puts a smile on my face every morning - as long as your car puts a smile on your face each morning, then in fact you have the best car.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,708
    Well, the 180HP was considering a 3000lb weight. the RX8 does hit these numbers as does a first generation Altima with manual(oddly enough), so making a car this size that's this light isn't impossible. I'll trade a few hundred pounds of padding and sound insulation and fluff any day for handling. Shoot, my old truck is so loud you can't hear yourself hardly think. I think part of it is that BMW and Mercedes and the rest are stressing cocoon-like isolation over performance.

    My favorite sports sedan from the "classic" era was the 1983 Volvo 242 Group-A turbo("Flathood"). I sat in one about 20 years back and was shocked at how fast it moved. I mean, compared to stuff like a Camaro doing 8 or 10 seconds, it ran like a fire was under its rear end.
    Almost 30 years old and WHY can't we get at least this good today, given modern materials and technology? Remember, this car cost 18K or so back then. So even adjusted for inflation, it's the same price as a base 3 series today.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    This is exactly why E30's are still so popular and in demand, and why so many enthusiasts who got excited about the 1-series were ultimately so disappointed by it.

    I'm waiting, but I still haven't found a worthy successor for my E30 M3. As long as I can get parts for it, I'm keeping it.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,210
    IMHO the new TSX is also way too big.

    I absolutely agree, which is why I'm so pleased to have slipped in just under the wire to buy one of the last of the previous versions -- besides which, it has no beak.
  • pv2pv2 Posts: 37
    I'm keeping my 2007 TL-S because it handles very well due to its lighter weight vs. the "beaky" new TL. Handles great and am averaging 21 mpg long term. Also, acceleration is better than even the 305hp SH-AWD.
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