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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    Luxury Sedan = M, 5, E, GS, A6, RL
    Entry Lux Sedan = G, 3, C, ES, A4, TL
  • carnaughtcarnaught Posts: 1,569
    edited June 2011
    Sure dude, whatever you say. I guess your user name says it all :sick: .
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Congrats KD! Enjoy!
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,897
    edited June 2011
    Ok, I get it now.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,706
    I doubt that you can get the G for 3-4k more than the Camry with the SAME options. You should be able to get a loaded Camry for about 27K (MSRP = $33K) at the end of the year. In order to get a loaded G for 30K, the dealer needs to give you 14K discount (MSRP = $44k).

    The G37 Journey has almost the same exact options as a Camry V6. They dropped the base model as well and now relegate that to the G25 where it belongs. The G37 starts out at the mid level trim. Most of the options aren't really required, either, and the car rides far too hard with the sport tires or sport package. Hence why, IMO, it's not a real luxury car - though it is a good upscale sport sedan like the 3 series.

    Truecar has one for $32320 near me. And it's not the end of the year - there's no incentives going on right now.

    It's $27K even for a Camry V6 XLE (no options, either) - no incentives, ever. Like I said - it's a fantastic deal and a better replacement for the tired and boring Camry in any case. For 4-5K more, it's a no-brainer, really. It represents what I feel is the best value for the dollar currently on the market. And for 90% of people who have never had either a proper luxury car or a proper sports car, it's going to feel like they won the lottery compared to their old car.

    But for the original poster, it's not quite what he seems to want - he wants a step up from all of that. Fair enough. Myself, like I said, I really like the G37 a lot. But then I can get one with manual, so it's a huge incentive as well.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,476
    Good luck!
    - Ray
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    That is what most people on here and in the industry agree upon. Sorry your in some super minority that feels differently :sick:
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Posts: 749
    edited June 2011
    It's $27K even for a Camry V6 XLE (no options, either) - no incentives, ever.

    You should be able to get a base V6 XLE for about 25K. You can get a loaded XLE V6 w/ NAV., Smart key, DVD... for 27.5K here without negotiation. You should be able to get it a lot cheaper toward the end of the year.

    People can also get a base Camry for about 16K as well.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    ...The G37 Journey has almost the same exact options as a Camry V6....

    If one lives in the Northeast, RWD is not a bargain, so one would be looking for a G37x, at least I would. There is a $10,000 difference between a G37x and a Camry with the same options. You can't even get the same options on a G25 as are available on a CAMRY.

    I would rather drive the Camry in NY based on the last two winters than the G25 with RWD.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,706
    edited June 2011
    Well, if you don't put winter tires on the car, it will handle like junk no matter what it is. And the thing normally comes with summer tires which exacerbates the issue.

    http://editorial.autos.msn.com/listarticle.aspx?cp-documentid=1168211
    They say that less than 3% of U.S. tire sales are for winter tires. They tested a G37 with and without and the findings are surprising if you aren't familiar with these types of tires.

    Quote (MSN Autos):
    What About All-Wheel Drive?
    Often cited as the transportation cure for winter climates, all-wheel drive is far from a silver bullet. In previous tests, we've discovered that an all-wheel-drive vehicle with all-season tires can outaccelerate either a front- or rear-driver on winter rubber, but that's where the advantage ends. The additional traction of winter tires allows a two-wheel-drive car to outbrake, outturn, and generally outmaneuver its all-wheel-drive brethren. Of course, the unstoppable winter option that can impart visions of rally-driving heroism is the combination of all-wheel drive and winter tires, but possessing all-wheel drive generally sacrifices a rear-drive car's handling balance in the dry, adds a couple hundred pounds, and comes with a fuel-economy penalty. That's why our preferred choice is to buy a second set of tires to get through the winter


    Here's a video of all season vs winter tires:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYEMH10Z4s

    So you should forget AWD and get a set of summer and a set of winter tires instead. If you live where you really get bad snow, that is.
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Posts: 749
    Yeb, I hardly find just a RWD here unless I want a MT. 99.9% of the Gs are AWD in Philly.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I have plenty of snow experience. The awd on my subie worked flawlessly with all season tires in two feet of snow from the last few winters.

    I don't want to turn this into a debate on drivetrains and tires. But in the northeast there are a lot of cars on the road with awd.

    It easy to sit in LA and link to articles on tires and drivetrains. Why dont you spend a winter or ten in the northeast and get some practical experience with tires and drivetrains?
  • Kirstie@EdmundsKirstie@Edmunds Posts: 10,676
    Heck, even going to Kansas City would do. Two winters with 40+ inches of snow each year switched me to 4WD in a heartbeat. No regrets.

    While it's all well and fine for people to keep giving ideas about how to turn a RWD sport sedan into a decent snow performer with better tires, etc., I can tell you that my 4WD vehicle outperforms my G35 in the snow, period.

    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,706
    edited June 2011
    Yet, you don't hear about people in Europe having problems with RWD Mercedes and BMWs being dangerous in the winter, do you? Winter tires are considered a normal thing in Germany and everyone uses them.

    It's really not the huge issue that most people on the boards here make it out to be. The way that people talk about it seems as if your car will instantly fly off the road, cash, and explode if you don't cough up the extra thousands for an AWD system.

    Proper tires and not driving like a moron can make it pretty much a non-issue and allow you to consider pretty much any car or truck for winter use. That video, btw, that I linked to was of a RWD BMW.

    Oh, and we do get snow in California. I didn't always live in So. Cal - there's tons of bad weather up in the northern parts of the state. And in all of that time, I never once considered what type of drive (FWD/RWD/4WD) the vehicle had when I purchased it. I adjusted my driving patterns and tires to fit the situation.
  • Kirstie@EdmundsKirstie@Edmunds Posts: 10,676
    I didn't pay thousands extra for my AWD vehicle, and I didn't see anyone allude that your RWD will fly instantly off the road. Just that AWD performs better.

    Ever live in Europe? I'm guessing not. I have. It's a bit silly to lump all of Europe into a single category, because some areas get almost no snow, but anyway... not everyone in Germany drives a RWD vehicle, and I'm not sure it would make international news if some of those who did had trouble in the snow. I will say that much of England pretty much shuts down if there's 2" of snow - could we attribute that to the prevalence of RWD vehicles in Europe? I doubt it, but that debate point makes as much sense as your point about "not hearing about BMWs/Mercedes flying off the road in Germany."

    As I said, talk all you want. We've had two RWD vehicles at the same time in winter, and 2 AWD vehicles at that same time. I'm going to choose the AWD vehicle in heavy snow 100% of the time, even if you tell me yet another time how RWD is a non-issue if you have proper tires and driving skills.

    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,706
    Well, there are a couple of factors to condsider with AWD.

    Does it actually work? Most systems actually are only good for slow speeds and getting you unstuck from snow and the like. If the system transfers power back and forth and isn't engaged all of the time, it's useless for most bad conditions unless the power ratios are set up correctly. Most manufacturers get this horribly wrong.

    The G37 in question costs $1500 more for the AWD version, but it performs almost the same as the RWD version due to the power distribution. (0/100 under default conditions). It's basically fancy version of stability control in that it kicks in when it feels that it needs to, and from videos of the system in action that I have seen, it takes about 1/4 to 1/2 of a second for the computer's AI to actually think and respond.(not talking about theoretical published specs, but watching the wheels respond to an unknown surface and how they move back and forth)

    Too slow to be useful at normal driving speeds except to maybe lessen a skid or situation where you are already in over your head. There are numerous articles and videos out there about half-baked AWD systems, so I'll not go into this further.

    The other issue is cost - $1500 more and much more likely to break down as the car ages. Is it worth it? Probably not. It's certainly not full-time AWD like Audi and Subaru use.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    The G37 in question costs $1500 more for the AWD version, but it performs almost the same as the RWD version due to the power distribution

    It may perform the same but I'll bet it doesn't react the same. What I want out of my AWD system is not to have to worry about powering through deep drifts. I want to be able to step on the gas gently and have all four tires partipate in gingerly moving the car without throwing it into a skid.

    With RWD with snows, gingerly is not in the equation. It doesn't matter whose system is better, I want the system to be just good enough so I won't get stuck.

    The ATTESA has been written up for the last several years as the best performance AWD.

    Come this winter I will find out.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,700
    Don't forget that AWD doesn't do anything for braking. It can get you moving in slick conditions, but to get stopped - well all cars brake on all four wheels.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,897
    I'll be sure to tell the tow truck driver pulling me out of a snow drift that he really doesn't need 4WD on his truck.....just get some snow tires. ;)
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