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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,763

    @circlew said: Thanks. I saw a few with decent low miles in the $35-40K range. Just thinking...

    The E92 has long been a favorite of mine, I like the looks as well as the performance. The is package is really just icing on the cake...

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,184

    http://www.autoblog.com/2014/07/04/audi-a3-supplies-tight-stealing-honda-toyota-sales/?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000588

    New Ellps - cla, a3 and I guess for now 320 bmw. I know some of talk about the mainstream cars and who's shopping for what has gotten people riled up but this article makes it known younger people are looking upward at badges.

  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,396
    edited July 6

    The E92 has long been a favorite of mine, I like the looks as well as the performance. The is package is really just icing on the cake...

    Always like the icing the best!

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,101
    edited July 7

    I am probably wrong in concluding that those of us who write down our opinions and push POST COMMENT here are not exactly the kind of folks who these ELLPS car companies are marketing to. But, then again, I might be right.

    The comment somewhere, "it's missing a pedal" is one I personally relate to -- but, well that's two of us. Audi, BMW, et al, certainly WANT our money -- but there is probably very little (if any at all) financial reason to offer 6-speed manual transmissions any more.

    We're lucky -- I think -- to have the wonderful 7-speed DSG unit that Audi uses in several of its cars, I'm as fine as wine with that transmission. Heck, I've even come 'round to the 8-speed tiptronic when tuned for performance shifting.

    And, even were I not happy with the 8-speed Audis and BMWs and the 7-speed unit employed by Mercedes, well, I really don't count much anymore.

    BMW is selling a lot of cars these days -- up over 12%. The super-majority of these sales, I assume, came with automatic transmissions. Good for BMW. Ditto at Audi and MB -- at least I assume so. It has been "forever" (2004 or 2005) since I saw, let alone drove a manual transmission at an Audi or BMW dealership. My last stick was an Audi allroad -- 2003 model.

    My wife's last stick was a 2005 BMW X3 3.0. Since then we've had a 2005 A6, a 2008 X3, an Infiniti 2011 FX35, a 2009 Audi A4, a 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD and now a 2014 S4 and SQ5.

    In this (the examples of the cars we've owned) one way, our buying probably represents more of what most "real" people actually buy. Although I would argue that those who buy Audi's S and RS cars and BMW's M's, and Mercedes AMG's no matter how poshed-up, may not be the manufacturers' main, or primary customers.

    If BMW 3 series cars really have fallen out of favor with many of their previous customers, I would agree (with whoever posted this idea) that for every "die hard Bimmer-file" that leaves the fold, several new to the fold customers come on-board. Ditto the message for Audi and Mercedes -- lose 1, gain 5 (or whatever the number might be).

    There were die-hard horse and buggy customers -- back in the day -- too.

    Giddy-up?

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,305
    edited July 7

    No one has every gone broke underestimating the taste of the Amerian public -- H.L. Mencken.

    I want a medium-displacement diesel with a manual transmission. These days, VW is the only show in town, and their reliability (yeah, I know . . . I should be prepared to tolerate "breathtakingly expensive") is somewhat suspect.

    What I'd like is a BMW 320 or 325 diesel with a manual transmission, since they've not yet discontinued RWD -- they're available in the thousands outside of the CARB-driven North American market. As a second choice, I could deal with an Audi A3 diesel with a manual. Or, I could go piss up a rope.

    What I want isn't available, so I continue to tolerate what I can get. I presently drive an Acura TSX from the pre-beak era with a very nice manual transmission that drives the wrong set of wheels. It's been stone-reliable (well, there was the blower motor issue that I dealt with a month or so ago) for the whole time I've driven it (approaching 100K miles), but I've never forgiven Acura for not bringing in the diesel TSX that was promised for the model year following my purchase of the gasser that I drive. Guess what -- they couldn't meet CARB.

    I drove my first modern diesel in Europe 13 years ago and have been waiting ever since for the opportunity to buy one here. I'm getting older by the day. I don't think it'll ever happen. Thanks, CARB.

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,184

    Soon you most likely will also be looking overseas for a manual transmission along with said RWD diesel.

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,305

    @sweendogy said: Soon you most likely will also be looking overseas for a manual transmission along with said RWD diesel.

    Would if I could, but the EPA has rendered that choice impossible.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,672

    @cdnpinhead said: Would if I could, but the EPA has rendered that choice impossible.

    It's not the EPA but the buying public. VW sells both manual and DSG transmissions, the DSG transmissions out sell the manual. Yes, this is a FWD, however, the modern day auto is best suited for the oil burner, and with people exceeding the EPA rating in the BMW 328d this wouldn't happen with a manual transmission. Also the only manufactures of RWD diesel are the Europeans i doubt they will import a manual.

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,101

    One guy at my office (besides me) knows HOW to drive a stick -- the others aren't interested in learning how. They say "what is the advantage"? I try to suggest "fun" or "connecting" more with the overall driving experience (human/machine interface, etc).

    Everyone here is under 55 years of age. I am over 60.

    The baby boomers MAY be the last gen to both understand and appreciate manual transmission cars.

    I usually use the phrase "hand in glove" when I describe stick shift driving.

    I did test drive an Audi S4 manual ('14 MY) before ending up with the S-tronic.

    The S-tronic was THAT good. Besides there are some few instances when I must use a valet -- my recollection of valeting my 2003 allroad were gear-grindingly painful.

    I have met the enemy and he is me.

    And so are you.

    Burma Shave!

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,025

    You're also probably the only person in your office that even knows what Burma Shave is or the nostalgia surrounding it. My last stick was a 1975 Pinto. Marriage and a wife that will hear nothing of learning how to shift gears precluded anything but an automatic.

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,448

    Last manual was an '05 Mustang GT, to go along with my manual RX8 of similar vintage!

    Today's auto boxes are just too good and reliable, and perform better than even the best manuals.

    F you ever get a chance (and if you can find one), test drive an ATS manual. I've shifted tractors that were better.

  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,763

    @markcincinnati said: There were die-hard horse and buggy customers -- back in the day -- too.

    That is not a very accurate analogy; the BMW enthusiasts I know aren't clamoring for the return of carburetors or deletion of ABS systems; I'd even hazard a guess that most could make peace with a decent DCT/DSG as well. What they DO find objectionable is BMW's current penchant for making their cars bigger, heavier, and more insulated from the driving experience. As I've noted before, I've spent considerable seat time in several F10s and F30s and I find my son's 2004 X3 and my Mazdaspeed 3 to be far more involving drives. BMW is coming in second or third in many magazine comparisons, and their novocain-infused steering and poor ride/handling balance are a major reason for their poor showing.

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,889

    @roadburner

    I've noted on several occasions that I think the current F30 Body 3 series would "out-handle" my AWD E90 328xi on a skid pad or road course. The chassis is stronger and tighter. The car is faster. But I don't know for sure because I can't feel what's going on. Its not that the current 3 series isn't a nice car. If I drove one and it was my 1st time ever driving a BMW, I wouldn't lust after it and WANT it like I did when I first drove my friend's 1995 E36 325is (SP - MT). It isn't like my Prelude with its 200 hp @ 7000 RPM & 156 lb ft of torque @ 5250 RPM that begs me to drive it every time I get behind the wheel even after over 152K miles & 12 years.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,763

    @nyccarguy

    Exactly. The new 3er isn't a bad car, it simply doesn't drive the way a BMW should.

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,396
    edited July 8

    BMW is coming in second or third in many magazine comparisons, and their novocain-infused steering and poor ride/handling balance are a major reason for their poor showing.

    Even Caddy is working on beating BMW at their "old game", i'm afraid! Also, producing in Mexico will reduce their premium badge appeal, afaic.

    http://www.leftlanenews.com/gm-details-steering-improvements-for-2015-cadillac-ats.html

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,645

    Well that's great---no company should rest on its laurels.

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  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,396

    Well that's great---no company should rest on its laurels.

    Particularly not GM. It's laurels keep coming back to haunt them! ;)

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,672

    This whole Auto v Stick debate will never be settled, there will always be people who want a manual car, and there are more who do not. My last stick was my E90 M sport 328i, it was nice, however, it became very old when sitting on the freeway in the city of angels.. Today, you can order most BMW's with a manual. Now with the CAFE # needing to be improved all manufactures need to increase their numbers, and BMW went with Elec steering, now this can be blamed on the EPA. I also blame the oil companies, they keep diesel product low (they say there is no demand for it) but I have to say is there really a demand for mid-grade too? IF diesel was between regular and premium in price, then the advantage is really there to switch.

  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 230

    I was checking some other forums and found some interesting specs that have recently been released for the 2015 TLX. Amazingly enough, the interior of the new TLX is smaller than a Honda civic.

    2015 TLX Exterior Measurements WIDTH 73 in. LENGTH 190.3 in. FRONT TRACK 62.8 in. REAR TRACK 63.1 in. WHEEL BASE 109.3 in.

    Interior Measurements FRONT HEAD ROOM 42.6 in. FRONT HIP ROOM 55.3 in. FRONT LEG ROOM 42.6 in. FRONT SHOULDER ROOM 57.5 in. REAR HIP ROOM 54.9 in. REAR HEAD ROOM 36.7 in. REAR LEG ROOM 34.5 in. REAR SHOULDER ROOM 55.4 in.

    EPA Passenger Volume = 93.3 cu ft EPA Cargo Volume = 13.2 cu ft for base and Tech (14.3 cu ft for Advance) EPA Total Interior Volume = 106.5/107.6 cu ft

    Compared to

    As far as the Civic comparison, the 2014 Civic has an EPA rated interior volume of 107.1 cu ft total. Of this total, the cargo volume is 12.5 cu ft. **Meaning that the passenger volume for the Civic is 94.6 cu ft. **

    Even the Civic is larger inside the passenger cabin than the 2015 TLX by 1.3 cu ft.

    It is important to note that the 2014 Accord provides 119 cu ft of interior volume. This is more than 10 cu ft more than the 2015 TLX that only has 107.6 in the Advance model.

    I assume the interior will be nicer than a civic, but I think my interest in the TLX has just died. I'm sure there are pros and cons about this, but I think I'm going to pass.

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,305
    edited July 10

    I bought my '08 TSX specifically because it was smaller -- it was the Accord sold in the rest of the world. It also had a suspension designed for something other than isolation from the road and an excellent 6-speed manual. I am not of the opinion that bigger is better (I realize that I'm in the minority here as well), but reading these posts helps me understand why the Civics of today are bigger than the Accords of yesteryear.

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,448

    @cdnpinhead said: I bought my '08 TSX specifically because it was smaller -- it was the Accord sold in the rest of the world. It also had a suspension designed for something other than isolation from the road and an excellent 6-speed manual. I am not of the opinion that bigger is better (I realize that I'm in the minority here as well), but reading these posts helps me understand why the Civics of today are bigger than the Accords of yesteryear.

    I know the wife's current gen Accord is as big as my 4th gen TL SH AWD, even though it's shorter.

    I would imagine the same will be true for the upcoming TLX. Probably the way it's packaged with useable space, will be as big or bigger than the current Accord. You really have to look at the entire picture. Packaging efficiency makes a big difference in passenger comfort/room.

    My wife really wanted one of the last TSXs. There just weren't many on dealer's lots, and she felt the TL was too big. So, she settled on an Accord (which she does love).

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,101
    edited July 10

    As nice as the Accord may be, and even including the fact that the Honda is somewhat larger factored in, too, well, the TLX will offer PAWS and SH-AWD. These features put the TLX into another performance category (and the TLX will also offer an 8-speed transmission and a "sport tuned" suspension.)

    Folks that shop for Acuras do so, I think, because they don't want a Honda (hence Acura's efforts to distance the Acura lineup from Honda products as much as the corporate checkbook will tolerate).

    These two cars aren't really competitive [with each other] if you axed me. The new TLX, I would assume will end up being in comparison tests with the Infiniti Q50S AWD and the Lexus IS350 AWD, to name just two.

    The Infiniti and the Lexus may have an initial advantage since they are -- "foundationally" -- based on RWD chassis. Of course, I wouldn't count out the impact of the PAWS and SH-AWD technology making for perhaps a more interesting showdown.

    Certainly these cars will want to be included in the same sentences with a BMW 3 and even the somewhat aging A4/S4 family, but I do believe the TLX will work like crazy to position itself as the alternative vehicle (alternative to the Infiniti and Lexus, to be sure).

    I'll end where I began, the Acura TLX, perhaps for the first time in years, seems to have distanced itself more from the [Honda] Accord. I'll be so nutz as to suggest these two cars will rarely be cross shopped (other than perhaps the BASE FWD TLX vs the Accord).

    Often wrong, never uncertain, I remain. B)

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,914

    @markcincinnati said: One guy at my office (besides me) knows HOW to drive a stick -- the others aren't interested in learning how. They say "what is the advantage"? I try to suggest "fun" or "connecting" more with the overall driving experience (human/machine interface, etc).

    Our 18-year-old learned to drive manual only because it was required in order to take dad's car to the prom. A few months later, he was ready to buy his own vehicle to take to college, and we mentioned that since he'd already learned how to drive manual, and seemed to like it, that he should look at manual shift vehicles. Not an ELLPS, but he ended up buying a manual Focus. One of the advantages we sold him on was that he wouldn't likely have to be the bad guy when non-vehicle owning students wanted to borrow his car. Sorry man, I would let you, but it's a manual shift. :) Still, I was pleased that he learned and wanted to continue to use his skill. When he was in learning phase, we did continually reiterate that it's a skill he'll never be sorry to have mastered.

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  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 30,476

    Unfortunately, I taught my son to drive a stick, as well... Now, he wants nothing else and is alwayss borrowing my car... :(

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  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,448

    @kyfdx said: Unfortunately, I taught my son to drive a stick, as well... Now, he wants nothing else and is alwayss borrowing my car... :(

    My son was the same way. I insisted he learn from the beginning (when he had a learners permit) that I teach him how to drive a manual transmission. Now, they're tough to come by. Still, I think it's good that he knows how to drive a manual.

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,184
    edited July 12

    I would think those who drive manuals would be in tune with car and surroundings more then auto people. I have no documentation that says manual drivers as a whole are better but this is my opinion- it seems one who drive stick would need to listen more to the engine, have a better feel for speed - prob missing other things but its a good skill to have - certainly better then texting and driving

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 15,415

    well, after driving at least 1/2 a million miles in a stick, I am not sure that being more attuned has to be true. Shifting became such second nature, you just did it without really having to think about it. no different than steering or braking!

    2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4i Limited Tech (mine), 2013 Acura RDX (wife's) and 2007 Volvo S40 (daughters college car)

  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,966

    I concur - I don't even think about shifting. It is second nature. When I drive my VW stick, I can be just as distracted as when I drive an automatic.

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,184

    Hard to text or handle a phone when on a decline as the light changes from red to green. Might be second nature(I agree) but more attention is needed simply because you are actually using the right hand.

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,448
    edited July 15

    For those who have been waiting for the new Acura.....

    2015 TLX Pricing

    MODEL

    TLX 2.4 8-DCT P-AWS-$30,994

    TLX 2.4 8-DCT P-AWS with Technology Package-$35,025

    TLX 3.5 V-6 9-AT P-AWS-$35,220

    TLX 3.5 V-6 9-AT P-AWS with Technology Package-$39,250

    TLX 3.5 V-6 9-AT P-AWS with Advance Package-$42,500

    TLX 3.5 V-6 9-AT SH-AWD with Technology Package-$41,450

    TLX 3.5 V-6 9-AT SH-AWD with Advance Package-$44,700

    http://www.acura.com/TLXLanding.aspx?s_cid=FB&linkId=8787940

    That's pretty aggressive pricing from where I sit. I like.

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