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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

1598599601603604860

Comments

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,475
    edited November 2011
    You didn't undestand the actual comments:
    1. Putting money down on lease is defeating main lease advantage (which is transfering depreciation risk to the finance company). If car gets totalled, the downpayment is gone, gone, gone, whereas if you put nothing down, GAP (included in lease) will pick it up. Other advantages are businesses don't need to commit capital and get better tax treatment (not really applicable for consumer). That's why banks loooove people putting money down on lease and manufacturers advertise leases structured that way - they just picked up the tab and shows lower monthly payment on ads. Doesn't mean that one has to go for it - quite to contrary, it's generally bad idea, period.
    2. People who put money down to lower payments on lease by definition demostrate that they do not undestand lease, which means they should not lease. Lease is much more complex financing instrument with more variables that can be manipulated to create illusion of lower price. There are cases when lease may be cheaper than financing - but not because of lower payment, but because of hidden price break that is included in residual inflated above real predicted actual market value (after return, the manufacturer's bank has to eat the price difference).

    One who decides to lease has to understand every single aspect of it, otherwise they may be for very rude awakening at the end of the term, when they owe 3 grand outright for mileage overrage and another two for scratches. All of that has to be factored in. That's why you read those comments from people saying that if one buys based on payment, most likely they can't afford the car ("don't deserve"). It really is a simple rule of thumb - if you can't afford to buy it (loan/cash), you can't afford to lease it, either. There are some exceptions for very low mileage users, or subsidized leases, but just because monthly payment is lower, it doens't mean it's cheaper.

    I went through it with my recent purchase. I got 328 wagon with a few options ($45K MSRP). Correctly structured lease (0 down, 15K/yr) was about $200 per month less than 60 month loan with small ($2500) downpayment (yes - loan downpayments are making perfect sense, as they lower overall financed amount and risk of being upside down in case of a total). To me $200 per month is absolutely not enough, especially that effective finance rate was higher on the lease than on the loan. I made some quick math and it was evident that low interest loan was a better deal. Higher monthly payments, but better deal overall. Now, if somebody lives in monthly payment world, they may not really understand the concept, but that's a different discussion. ;)

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    Go to the Infiniti dealer and ask to see the car that is advertise for that lease price. Changes are there isn't one around.. Leader Ad...

    We can agree to disagree, you can put down $4K on a lease and waste your money to drive a car that you can't really afford. I'll use BMW's money and put nothing down on a lease and use my $4K for my trip to Germany when we do the European Delivery of our 2012 535i
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    Thank you setting the record straight, there is also another factor that goes into leasing, is someone credit score, if you have less then 720 mid score forget about getting the best rate on a lease these days, it wont happen. Just like what you wrote, those leader ad's will be for 10K miles a year on a 3 yr lease, how many people can drive that?
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    Leasing really was a great alternative 5-6 years ago and I used to do it, but since then, the car companies have gotten greedy and over value the residuals and make it impossible to get out of the leasing cycle once you start in it.

    For instance, 5-6 years ago, my leases used to have great residuals and buyouts so that if you really feel in love with the car and wanted to buy it, you could without it breaking the bank. Some companies would even work with you to lower the buyout. That is no more. Now, the car companies inflate the residuals making the buyouts thousands of dollars over msrp and put disposition fees, etc because they want you to return the car at the end of the lease and get something else from them, thus never ending the cycle.

    I found this out the hard way and one of my vehicles is still on lease. It is going to be my last lease as I'm switching back to financing.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    You hit the nail on the head. I just sit and laugh when I see the leasing commercials from the car manufactures say things like $3995 or $4295 due at signing. That is just crazy!
  • dl_amgdl_amg Posts: 39
    With current economy, you can always nego to do no money down.
    I just sign a lease with MBUSA on 2012 C250 Sport Sedan with MSRP$43.9k on 24mo/12k mi/yr. I walked out $1k drive off incl. 1st Mo.+ Registration + 2yr srvc plan and $400 per mo. incl. tax (8.75%). Of course every deal is different but dealer is making a lot of money on these FEES!
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,952
    edited November 2011
    We can agree to disagree, you can put down $4K on a lease and waste your money to drive a car that you can't really afford

    What's up with you assuming to know what people can afford or not afford?

    The act of putting money down on a lease has absolutely no indication as to whether the person can afford it or not. It may indicate that they either don't understand the advantages of not putting money down or they just want a little smaller monthly payment. I don't think anyone should assume that just because they may prefer a smaller payment that they "cant afford it". It's kind of like the old saying that people that can't afford to buy the car will lease it. Kind of like how you took affront when, because of your screenname, people assumed you were female.

    They could very well be much better off than you, the one accusing them of not being able to afford one of these cars. Making blanket statements like that is silly and very condescending!

    Complete understanding of the leasing process and concern about all the possible risks involved indicates one is more knowlegeable.....not better off.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,106
    Again its a deal on the website from both BMW and Infiniti.

    I never mentioned anything about downpayment or anything about lease specifics - so i don't know what we disagree about. The only thing I stated was that Infiniti has better posted lease prices then the BMW- pointing to company listed current leases- not blanket statement -
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,475
    edited November 2011
    I looked back at your post. At fist glance G37 looks better than 328 even after rolling the downpayments into actual paments. I looked at the websites and it appears that both have 10K/yr (so you can enjoy your car mostly in your garage, not on the road). However, Infiniti expects dealers to give up over 2 grand of markup - $41K MSRP less $2.7K due is $38.3K, yet net cap cost (including $700 acq. fee) is is $36.4K, so about 2.5 grand comes out of the dealer. BMW deal is structured around MSRP, which means there is additional dealer markup that can be negotiated from. If you take out that 2 grand Infiniti dealer contribution, prices become similar. In other words you walk into BMW and you can get your price down by a bit, but at Infiniti it's probably close to bottom line.

    Add paid maintenance (dealer oil changes are over hundred bucks each, add set of brake pads, wipers perhaps some other things). I think it's a tie with 328 having slightly lower cost, but G37 being faster and perhaps better equipped).

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,106
    I may not be the norm but in the first 3 years of ownership I went for oil changes, wipers and tire rotations. Oil changes can be had for 40 bux (sometimes less) at the dealer, rotations another 40 bux - and wipers are 20 bux a year.... Now mind you I own the car (not lease), only one driver and I do not hammer it to redline at stop lights. I'm sure many people have had tl go thru brakes during the same timeline but I think if you own a car and the maintience is not included you would baby it a little bit more knowing that Infiniti would not fix it on the arm. For larger ticket items the BMW program sounds great- but it does not cover those pricy run flats that are standard- hit a couple of north eastern potholes and the slight cost advantage goes away. (let's not forget the lease return fee as well)
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,475
    edited November 2011
    Fat chance on those $40. There is no doubt BMW can get expensive at times. I don't kow prices at Infininti dealers, but all other lux cars (incl. Lexus or Benz) oil changes are easy north of $100 (it's both the special grade synthetic oil and labor), so I find it unlikely Infiniti would charge much less. $40 are those mineral oil changes at Chevy, Ford or Toyota, not synthetic. A six pack of synthetic Mobil 1 is almost $40 at Costco and it may not be appropriate for your particular car. To balance, BMW has oil changes every 10-15K miles, depending on actual driving, which can balance several $40 per 3K miles changes.

    BTW, Infiniti has lease return fees. Directly from Infiniti website "Disposition Fee due at termination of lease". All lease companies do, no exceptions. They may sometimes waive them if you get another car of same brand.

    I get it- you like Infiniti. Fine, there is a lot to like. Just don't oversell it. It is not really as inexpensive as you would like to make us believe. Still 40 grand.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,106
    Dino - I'm not selling anything I started this trying to clairify costs- that were posted by another who said BMW was had a clear advantage in leasing. clearly you don't totally get it. Do I think the g37 is a better car for my 40k vs a 328 sure- is it better them the 335 - nope but power and price are something I value for sure.
    Maintenance for a car is great but let's not get blinded by the fact that BMW does this for a reason- they want you to lease and this service helps them resell the car when it comes bac for a premium as certified- its a fantastic model of how to sell cars- and caddy has followed this lead.
    Oil changes - well click link, 40 bux - no that fat. Now you know.

    http://herbchambersinfinitiofwestborough.com/Service_and_Parts_Specials
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,475
    edited November 2011
    I clicked and I was right. This is mineral oil change ("synthetic extra"), which means you have three-four of those per one on BMW. So it is $100-$120 for same period of comparison. This also means two-three more visits at the place, two-three more opportunities to sell you more than just oil change.

    Again, G37 is a good car All I'm saying it is probably not as cheap as you want to believe. And I know you are not selling - well perhaps just your beliefs ;) . All I'm doing is to clarify your clarifications, trying to level the comparisons to same benchmarks. Manufacturers are great when it comes to muddy the comparisons to their advantage. Doesnt mean we have to believe everything they say.

    Again:
    1. Infiniti offer is good, but it already requires dealer's "participation" in discount about $2500. Lower BMW price by that amount and then recalculate lease to get the offer comparison leveled.
    2. Both have disposal fee.
    3. BMW pays all but tires and wheel alignment (which is strange) maintenance. Infiniti does not. Just periodic inspections (based on your link) will sum up to a few hundreds over the lease period. Add oil changes and some rubber and other fluids and you may go over 1000 bucks easy.
    4. Infiniti has better features and power. BMW has better resale. If you want comparable BMW, 335 would cost you more, no doubt.

    Altogether BMW may come a bit cheaper (total cost), but probably not by much. In my town BMW dealers are far superior to Infiniti in customer service and sale experience.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    Yeah, I'm going to have to call B.S. on those Infiniti service pricing as I never was quoted any where near that from my local Infiniti dealers for oil and filer and tire rotations. Those two always ended up over $100 bucks, hence why I went somewhere else to have that done.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,106
    You can call it what you want but again a smart shopper knowing dealers have websites and competitors will shop around and get better. Look at the link I posted. Dino, Sure it's not synthetic but the 10-15k time period between changes seems a pretty long time between dealer visits for a 40k car- I guess if its a lease who cares right ?

    Smarty you had an Infiniti? Weren't you the same guy talking up the TL as well?
    I think the with the 10 plus thou I saved not getting the 335 I can afford 3 dealer trips a year for oil.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,475
    edited November 2011
    With BMW the car tells you when to go and change the oil. Has nothing to do with the lease. 10-15K is quite normal for regular use. BTW, it is very common in Europe - there nobody uses mineral oil, even on low-end subcompacts, but they do have much longer service periods. It really is just US, where 3K is still prevailing attitude at service stations. In turn, they put mineral oil even into engines that should never see it.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    Dino its not worth it, Sweeny is right we are all wrong, go back and read other postings of his and you will see a trend.

    If Infiniti was the better car, then BMW wouldn't be in business. However when it comes to leasing, no one wins but the banks.

    Just a FYI, BMW and Infiniti, Audi, Lexus, MB all drop the return fee if you lease another one of their cars, but BMW is the only one who will do it without asking. My First BMW I leased was a 325is and when I bought my 330i the fee was dropped and I never said a word.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Posts: 1,577
    edited November 2011
    My son recently returned his 2008 G35 after a 3 yr. lease. Although he did not lease or buy another Infinti, there was still no disposal/return fee. Review of his lease agreement confirms no disposal fee.

    Has this then changed with newer Infiniti leases?
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,952
    edited November 2011
    Please follow link for Infiniti oil change price of $25.95.

    http://www.infinitilakecounty.com/specials/service.htm

    I've owned an Infiniti for almost ten years and I don't believe I have ever paid over $35.99 for an oil change and of course that is not synthentic but it seems to work just fine for all this time. As I scan through my maint folder on the vehicle it seems it ran between $25 and $36 all these years. Can't account for the Infiniti dealer you frequented but I'm sure some are better than others. How many links are you going to need before you basically stop calling people liars? What does one have to do....scan and post invoices?

    Um, oil changes at 3k? Who does that anymore. Most newer cars have a 7500 mile change schedule. If people are going to continually exaggerate to make a point what's the sense in trying to have a discussion.

    Service prices have nothing to do with whether one car is better than another and I don't think that was the jist of this conversation anyway. Someone was just trying to point out the lease cost differences.....not whether one car is better or not.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,824
    Pretty close to what I was paying for my G35 oil changes as well. I sure don't recall ever thinking, "man, these oil changes are killing me!" My VW Jetta oil changes were more expensive due to the filter. We have one vehicle that requires $90 oil changes, but it wasn't the Infiniti.

    I will say that some of the maintenance items were pretty high, but I suspect they're in line with other vehicles in this class. Then again, I put 108,000 miles on it without a single repair (just maintenance), so overall it was a darn economical vehicle.

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