Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

16364666869860

Comments

  • 95gt95gt Posts: 69
    Think you are going way overboard there. The STI has no sound deadning material and does not even come with a radio. That is far different than the G35's use of low end plastics.

    And as the STI is comparable in every performance catagory to sports cars costing far more I would say yes it is a sports car. Good luck finding an is300 or 3 series that can compete with it.

    Performance is an aspect of luxury but does not make a car a luxury car. All the sedans we are discussing have a blending of luxury/performance.
  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    A loaded WRX might just barely get near the target criteria, but the STi is a niche dedicated pocket rally rocket that is all performance and no amenities. A loaded Legacy GT also near.

    Way I look at it is that the FWD 4-cyl TSX and 9-3 set the bare minimum for this category. From there you initially move up to the 325i, X-type 2.5, and C-class. Then onto the IS300, G35, TL, X-type 3.0, 330i, etc. Hard to say where it ends. But always thought $40,000 was into the next category.

    Subaru just doesn't seem to pass the marque bar. Certain marques almost automatically qualify:
    Acura, BMW, Cadillac, Infiniti, Jaguar, Lexus, Lincoln, MB, Saab, and Volvo. But VW is clearly moving into this market.

    Thinking the Passat W8 6-speed manual and Sport Pkg certainly qualifies in our discussion. If VW can, guess Subaru might too? Old Ford Taurus SHO would have, too.
  • chavis10chavis10 Posts: 166
    "True, cadillac has come a long way in quality but comparing it to the M series is utter nonsense."

    Nonsense, how so? M3 is stripped of must luxurious content yet commands an extreme price hike. M5 is fast and great, but look at the price compared to say a CTS-V which has similiar size, features, power, etc. I know a new one is coming out to so yall can save that lecture. I'm just illustrating the point the more companies are going to continue to succesfully low ball BMW and MB with equally equipped and performing cars for thousands less. WRX and STi might have all the performance in the world, but they are narrow focused products. The what determines a near luxury car from say pocket rocket. WHat else can the Evo/Sti do but go fast?
     

    "Cramming 400 horses down its throat, just isn't going to cut it."

    That's another interesting post. People on here are talking about the Sti and Evo being near luxury cars and others are saying the CVT-S isn't going to cut it when a comparably equipped 530i or E320 with 225 and 221 hp respecively can cost more than the V. Well, if the V won't cut it, what will? You get 400hp, standard everything except sunroof, and a usuable rear seat and trunk all for under $51k. Meanwhile, 6 cyl BMW 3s and MB Cs can touch $44+ without a problem. A define near luxury cars as those who's prices start around $30k and provide somewhat uplevel features and safety equipement not found or not standard on cheaper midsized cars. There are a few cars that bend the rule such as the Maxima or Avalon. They can be had stripped or equipped with almost every two in the book. A WRX or Evo are not near luxury cars by any strech of the imagination. However, hear's the real question, how can cars like the 3 series and C class be near luxury when people can barely fit in the back seat? I would just have a problems plunking down $40k if I couldn't fit in the back or get a weekends worth of suitcases in the trunk.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,144
    nobody is arguing with you that performance isn't luxury. BUT, we're saying its not the ONLY criteria to be considered a luxury (or near luxury) sedan. By your standards we'd have to include the Neon SRT4 here. Or why not even an expensive motorcycle?

    Is a ride in the space shuttle a luxury? Yes. But what the heck does that have to do with a luxury sedan? Hey, you can get shot out of a cannon and go REALLY fast. Is that a luxury? And, if so, does it have anything to do with this discussion? if a tree falls in the forest .... ah, forget it.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

  • Funny you mentioned this one. I actually test drove one last night, phenomenal performance, especially so at 21k. However, at no time did the word luxury ever enter my mind. But I was still grinning an hour after my drive. This little car has some serious seeds, but it sure isn't luxurious.
  • I would agree, that if you don't have leather power seats, you are not luxury. Of course, just having them does not luxury make (my 01 Accord Coupe EX-V6 had a power leather seats, and it was not luxury).

    The STi is not luxury. Fast? Yes. Cool? To me, yes, to others yes, to some, no?

    Would I want one? Hell no, not at 34, with three kids.

    The 04 TL 6 speed manual with navigation was the best combination of luxury and performace I could get in my price range (also looked at Maxima, ES, IS, G35).

    There is obviously a class of car...hmmm...sports sedans perhaps, that combine performance and luxury. Some tilt more to performance (IS, 3/5 series), some more to luxury (ES, G35) and some are a perfect blend of the two...my TL (ducking now as those German fans throw stuff at me).

    No way that the STi is a sports sedan. Great perfromance. No luxury.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Posts: 493
    "I'll say it again. Performance is luxury. "

    So my zx-11 ninja is the king of the land then?

    Luxury is not a function of power and perf. A town car and a 3 series are both luxury. As luxury's go, I'd say speed is one of them...but alone it does not a lux car make. How is an STI that most people think is (AND IS) an impreza ever considered lux? Unless the platform is rigid as 3 series or even a passat then forget it. It's an economy car that goes fast..real fast. Lux cars have luxury and are not annoying to drive tho after a 9 hour trip
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    A-h-h-h you guys are no fun. :-(

    Does the 911 belong in the "High End Luxury Marque" thread? I say yes and our host Pat agreed when the couch-potato-luxury fans tried to throw it out.

    STi costs the same as TL and G35... all are available with four doors.

    Pat, what do you say? Does STi get the boot?

    ;-)
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Posts: 252
    Look at the topic - "Near Luxury". I am not about to argue that the STi is a luxury car but it could be a near luxury car pretty quickly if Subaru so decided. Can you say "Saaburu 9-2X", which is quickly thrwon together car. The STi is not that far away as some are making it out to be.

    For 3-4K more: ONSTAR/NAV, more leather/suede/aluminum, sound deadining, Mcintosh stereo, the plain WRX aero wing for you "Too Cool Stylistas" would dress this car up nicely. So for 35-36K you could have a car that blows away all of the popular cars in this segment, and still nice enough to take out a young lawyer babe. :)

    Never mind the STi though, the new Legacy is gonna take care of this segment soon enough.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Than a SVT. It's weird, unofficial combination of the starting price, make, content and aim of the vehicle, NOT the final price loaded.

    The Imprezza is an econobox at heart, as is the Neon. The Legacy is a mid-size people mover like the Accord and Camry. They're all from manufacturers that are purely pedestrian.

    Acura's often noted as a tweener company as things like the RSX on the low end keep the high end from being taken seriously.

    Go into Nordstrom and you see button downs for $15 like at Mervyn's then you're dragging down the brand. And when buying near luxury, you are buying into a brand image - which is entirely perceived.

    Subaru builds a fast car on a cheap platform. It's a fast, cheap car that has prices which edge toward 30k.

    The same can be said of say Dodge with its 300m. It's still in the same exact brand as the 14k Neon.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Who knew?!
  • danny1878danny1878 Posts: 339
    To me G35 is near luxury performance sedan. It has good performance, good sound system, features of luxury car.

    On the other hand, STI does not even TRY to become one. Yes it has performance, but thats about it. No more and the price tag of this car is below near luxury performance sedan. Loud engine, no radio. I dunno but IMO Luxury means comfort, relaxing car environment, quiet ride, and maybe auto features for all devices such as dual auto climate, auto on off light, rain sensing wiper, auto pilot (just kidding).

    CTS-V, 5 series price tag is above near luxury sedan.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I'm not saying STi is luxurious in terms of butt-fluffing comforts. I'm saying its price tag qualifies it as "near luxury". And as a butt-kickin' "performance sedan", it qualifies as an appropriate subject of conversation in this thread.
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Posts: 252
    It's because of these "Purely Pedestrian", "Cheap Platform" cars that we have the nice affordable performance car options we have today. The recent crossover SUV, AWD sedan platforms today owe themselves to Subaru. The Legacy/Outback started the trend. The WRX kicked it up a notch for sedans. Why do you think BMW came out with a ZHP perforamce package, out of their nature for value? Why are so many sedans in the 240-280HP range? Prior to the WRX we were stuck at 175-220HP.

    OMG - Infiniti is now a luxury brand. OK ;] Who knew?

    Acura, Infiniti, Lincoln, Saab, Volvo are premium brands. Audi, Jag, and Lexus are luxury brands. Infiniti is moving up but not quite there.
    Subaru is a premium brand in terms of engineering but not there in terms of prestige. The upgraded Legacy might change that perception.

    Never mind the STi, the new Legacy is gonna take care of this segment soon enough.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    The Imprezza starts at under 20k. It's not a near luxury vehicle. I can drop 10k worth of extras on a Camry Solara and get its price to 30k. That car is still a Toyota and it's still based on a Camry.

    Price does not equal luxury status. Nobody calls a 35k Explorer a near luxury vehicle. Or a 40k Expedition a luxury vehicle. It's still a Ford.
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    If an ES300 was on sale for $10K would that make it no longer near-luxury? Would it be out-luxuried by a 15K dune buggy?

    I think everyone understands that the lichpin for luxury is comfort. To me, climate control is a big must-have for any luxury car. Quiet and some degree of isolation from envronmental harshness is another.

    And saab is definitely a luxury car. At a time i had a '97 328 and a '97 900SET and the SET in several ways was more luxurious (seats), although in several ways not (isolation).
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    I wouldn't consider Saab, Volvo, Audi or Acura luxury brands. They're tweener brands - they can't quite get over the hump to being considered on par with Lexus or MB.

    Remember Luxury is branding. A ford by nature of being a ford is not a luxury vehicle. The GT is still a Ford, regardless of price and performance.

    Kmart can sell a leather coat with diamonds for 5k but it's still not an Armani.
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Posts: 252
    It's because of these "Purely Pedestrian", "Cheap Platform" cars that we have the nice affordable performance car options we have today. The recent crossover SUV, AWD sedan platforms today owe themselves to Subaru. The Legacy/Outback started the trend. The WRX kicked it up a notch for sedans. Why do you think BMW came out with a ZHP perforamce package, out of their nature for value? Why are so many sedans in the 240-280HP range? Prior to the WRX we were stuck at 175-220HP.

    OMG - Infiniti is now a luxury brand. OK ;] Who knew?

    Acura, Infiniti, Lincoln, Saab, Volvo are premium brands. Audi, Jag, and Lexus are luxury brands. Infiniti is moving up but not quite there.
    Subaru is a premium brand in terms of engineering but not there in terms of prestige. The upgraded Legacy might change that perception.

    Never mind the STi, the new Legacy is gonna take care of this segment soon enough.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    No matter what Subaru will still have sub20k econo cars on its roster thus precluding it from being considered a true luxury brand. This is Acura's big failing too. If the TSX held the bottom rung they might get looked at as a luxury brand. With the TL they could for certain. But the RSX is little more than a rebadged Civic - much like the old G20 being a rebadged, leather-lined Sentra.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    "Tweener" brands are exactly what we are supposed to be talking about here, I do believe. While I agree that defining a "near luxury performance sedan" is difficult, we're kinda going all over the map here.

    I guess I've been thinking of "near luxury" as "entry level luxury" and the reality is they could mean two different things. If you thikn about it, the term NEAR luxury would tend to describe vehicles like the new loaded-up Accords - because of the word near as in "close to" - "close to" luxury is not entry-level luxury, and I think for the most part entry-level luxury has been the main focus here.

    Should we create a price range (how about $32-$42k?) along with a certain level of amenities - leather, premium stereo, climate control, power seat adjustments, upper range of safety features, perhaps navi, available at least as options? What else? How should we quantify "performance"? I guess that's been a big stumper here, hasn't it.

    Should we change the name of this discussion? The opening post here does a great job of explaining the creator's intent, but maybe the name creates a little confusion. cybersol Mar 23, 2002 2:04pm

    It would be nice if we could agree on a definition so we could talk about the cars instead of spending so much energy on the focus of the discussion itself! :-)
Sign In or Register to comment.