Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

1657658660662663859

Comments

  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,950
    edited April 2012
    It seems like a lot of people believe self-selection only brings back results from sore losers or proud owners which IMO is not the case. Unless any survey of owners is done with a gun at their head, it is self-selected. The only other method would be strictly from dealers service records since after warranty so many cars are serviced and repaired done by independent garages. That would give some good indication of initial and early troubles but wouldn't provide any long term reliability data. Pluse getting that kind of cooperation from dealers across the board would be extremely difficult. And if you think dealers pull shenanigans with customers....what would they do with something like that.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited April 2012
    "Geez.... my mother was right... I should have stayed in college and got a good job..."

    If I had listened to my mom, I would be a doctor today and could have afforded a new one... ;)
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,393
    Thanks for derailing the thread for me! I'm so happy for you dude!

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,106
    After you repaid 400k in loans -
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325
    Their flaw is they tell their readership what their reliability should be, and they respond accordingly. That's why Hondas have been at the top of their lists for so long.

    The flaw in your argument is you get to the chicken before you get to the egg.

    The CR data is based on real-world user experiences. Honda was at the top for a long time because Honda was making bulletproof vehicles for a long time. Toyota was at the top for the same reason.

    I've found the CR data to be pinpoint accurate down to the smallest details with every car I've owned. They are not influenced by advertising and hence, their reviews don't read like a cheerleader's salespitch. Often, I find sources with advertising to sound as if they are getting more than monetary benefits, maybe sexual as well! :P ;) They are just too RAH RAH, and positive for my tastes. I'll take CR anyday of the week and twice on Sunday.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325
    Plus which, a flaw that causes the car to stop running isn't differentiated from one that's an inconvenience or a minor annoyance in a system that 99% continues to function.

    >>>>_________

    You are probably right with JD Powers, but they are just an advertisement to the highest bidder anyway, and I'm sure they skew their data as such.

    With CR... you get major and minor issues separated, such as "Engine - Minor" and "Engine - Major."

    A Fantastic system if I do say so myself.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,106
    The argument here against CR is weak at best - owners of certain BMW
    S are On guard after one mention of a bad review. To start the argument with the Toyota stuff was terrible - but to go after consumers (of said cars) and call into question the validity of such survey without any real proof of wrongdoing is crazy. The mag has been around since the 30's and has 7m paid subscribers - its not some Mickey Mouse organization.
  • wirelesswireless Posts: 47
    edited April 2012
    Can we move and hear about Fedlawman's Porsche some more?
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,950
    What's the difference....it's all off topic anyway. Maybe the topic should be ELLPS.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325
    Yes, I love the conspiracy theorists that think CR brainwashes millions of people into believing something that isn't true.

    In fact... some BMW lovers (since some say BMW lovers would never read CR), should know that some BMW's score quite well when it comes to quality and value (in the 90's even score wise). It's just when it comes to reliablity that they can be spotty at best.

    Audi isn't perfect, but their trend is for reliability to generally improve over the last 10 years, moreso than BMW.

    I can totally understand getting a fun to drive vehicle despite some reliability flaws. I can't understand the argument that because a car costs 1/2 as much it should be half as reliable (or expectations as such should be lower).

    If I pay 1/2 as much I'd expect my HP and Torque, comfort, luxury to be halved, but not the reliability. If the performance was half, and the reliability was also half, then I'd expect the price to be 1/2 x 1/2 which equals 1/4!
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325
    Qualify as on topic?
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,393
    As you all know (and are probably sick of me saying so by now), I am infatuated with the way my BMW 328xi drives. I love it more and more every day. With close to 1200 miles (and my best friend's V1), I've been doing my best to explore the limits of what this Bavarian engineered I6 & RWD chassis can do. Yikes!

    I've discovered DS mode in the transmission. It should be explained very simply in the owner's manual:

    Slap shifter to left, Plant right foot, Smile

    The throttle mapping is much more responsive. The car feels even more alive!

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,475
    engineered I6 & RWD chassis can do.

    But, but, but... Isn't your car AWD? :confuse:

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,393
    Yes sir, you are correct. It is AWD, but is a RWD based AWD system. Take the AWD out of the equation & like your 328i Touring is a good old RWD chassis.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,475
    Fair enough. ;)

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 2,590
    Yes, the wife's 535xi has the DS mode, too. It's quite an attitude changer, I fear for her. My Jag has a sport mode, too. Combined with the paddle shifters, quite un-gentlemanly! ;)

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,662
    edited April 2012
    Yes, I love the conspiracy theorists that think CR brainwashes millions of people into believing something that isn't true.

    I don't think it's a conspiracy (unlike the president's b-certificate :) ) but I think it leads to generalizations regarding an entire manufacturer. I originally speculated that demographics (another generalization too) play a large part in the CR results (couch theory).

    I find it -reasonable- to assume Buick has a high reliability ranking because 'old' people aren't tearing it up like a younger person would; same with Lexus.

    Of course, in my case, a long time ago I had -acceptable- reliability from my Honda Civic, even though I kept that thing over 5k rpm all day...so that may prove the point that Honda is making extraordinary reliable vehicles.

    My IS350 isn't *super* reliable. My previous cars...my Honda wasn't as reliable as my Audi. Looking at CR...the Audi should loose that comparison every time.

    I overheard (eaves-dropped) the lady across the hall saying "my car's a Honda so it'll last forever". I thought "really? I could break it pretty quick". But she heard form them/they that is is reliable.

    As a disclaimer...I also listened to them/they when I decided on my CPO IS350 over a 335 (didn't want to deal with potential problems of a German car). If I had the few problem in a 335 I've had in my IS350 I would have thought "see...those German cars break down, they were right"
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,950
    My IS350 isn't *super* reliable. My previous cars...my Honda wasn't as reliable as my Audi. Looking at CR...the Audi should loose that comparison every time.

    I think CR has a sample size a little larger than ONE. If two other peope had Audis that had more problems than your Honda would you then accept as fact that the Honda was more reliable. It's twice the sample size yours is. People do get lemons or plums and that is why a survey of several hundred or even thousands is a better indicator than your admitted speculations. Did the lady across the hall have a copy of CR in her hand? Would have made your story even funnier.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325
    edited April 2012
    I find it -reasonable- to assume Buick has a high reliability ranking because 'old' people aren't tearing it up like a younger person would; same with Lexus.
    ____>>>>>>>>>>)))))))))

    I don't agree with those presumptions though. A decently made vehicle will stay in one piece whether you drive it like grandpa or you drive it like you stole it (as long as you maintain it properly). For instance.... My '95 Neon fell apart when it was babied, and it tore apart equally as bad when I drove it like a teenager should (:P).

    My friend of the same age literally raped his '95 Geo Prism (a Corolla under the emblem) day after day, from birth until he sold it at over 100K miles. While he treated his Corolla at least 10X harsher than I treated my Neon, I needed 4 tow trucks in 65K miles while his car needed zero in over 100K miles. He had zero mechanical issues (someone did break off his rearview mirror though (but that's rough housing negligence, not the cars fault).

    With rev limiters in Automatics... if the car can't be driven like it can be driven, then maybe the manufacturer should move the red line to 2,500 RPM???? I can't imagine any kind of driving style (short of willful attempts to destruct) hampering the life of a well made vehicle (accidents excluded).

    In conclusion if a car self destructs just because you don't drive it like someone over 65, then that car should be labeled as a disposable vehicle. Like a BIC disposable razor. Planned obsolesense?

    Another example, I've tracked my A3 several times (and driven it way harder in general than any other car I've owned, including the Neon as a Teenager). The A3 has been fairly reliable almost to the level of the Honda I owned for 65K miles (which was far from perfect, but very good; I blame Ohians for most of the issues). None of the issues with my A3 that have hit my pocket book could really be reasonably attributed to driving it "hard," other than routine maintenance items like Brake pads, rotors, and tires. Costs in those areas are high when you drive it like it was MEANT to be driven.

    P.S. It wouldn't suprise me that much if an Audi made post 2000 was more reliable than a Honda made post 2007. Was the Honda made in the USA?; even less surprising then. Now if your Honda was made in Japan, and the Audi beat it... congratulations to Audi! But Audi is reliable enough for the last 10 to 12 years that any one good one could perhaps beat a bad Honda by a bit.
Sign In or Register to comment.