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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans



  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,278
    edited April 2012
    I also listened to them/they when I decided on my CPO IS350 over a 335


    Judging a used car is slightly unfair to Lexus? Maybe the previous owner never changed the oil, or grossly neglected the car moreso than just abuse in driving it, but abuse in lack of maintenance. CPO means little to me. You simply don't know how it was "owned" previously. All of the cars I've had were bought new. That is a huge variable when you buy "used." One of the "risks" you take for saving money.

    Also, I believe a proper break-in in the first 1,000 miles may be crucial.... If I leased a car... I probably wouldn't break it in properly, but I've always bought... so I have.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,652
    Yes that does make sense, my sample size is me :)

    I don't really follow CR for automobiles; there are too many variables.

    For comparison, you don't use your vacuum everyday, outside, in the rain/snow, in anger (some of you may), for fun, to eat on (in), over curbs, over grass, to compete with your neighbor (i'm guilty on that one); and don't have different strangers take it a part occasionally to repair/maintain it.

    I suppose they try to account for all variables and 'guess' the best they can.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,652
    A decently made vehicle will stay in one piece whether you drive it like grandpa or you drive it like you stole it

    Good point; but you could 'make', via CR reports, a mediocre vehicle appear to be a decently made one by marketing towards 'grandma'. Who knows, I could be off, they could be tearing up the roads in the afternoons while I'm at work :)

    I too beat the snot out of my college car (83 tercel 4sp--rust hole I could put my fist through); just maintenance couldn't do much to get in trouble anyway :)

    Is that an AutoX track event? Any ball-joint issues? I've seen an RSX have one give-way...tire folded under the car...apparently AutoX events stress them.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,896
    edited April 2012
    Yes that does make sense, my sample size is me

    That's what I thought. Real rational thinking. Oh, was that supposed to be funny?

    CR performs a function. Just because it reviews many different things shouldn't be a reason to question it's methodology or accuracy. They're just another avenue of information to assist one in making a purchase...not the be all, end all.

    OK, you don't read CR for your car buying decisions. That's great and who should care? On the flip side, why do you find it necessary to deride both CR and the people(who you constantly refer to as old or "grandmas" which in itself is pretty childish) that do consult it?
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,652
    it reviews many different things shouldn't be a reason to question it's methodology or accuracy

    Point not question...just accept.

    OK, you don't read CR for your car buying decisions. That's great and who should care?.

    On the flip side, who should care that you do not care? You saw fit to "publish" your disagreement. I don't see one post here as being more valid than the others. I usually just pass-them-by.

    I don't ridicule the old; just point out they take better care of their cars (and sofas) than the young(er)...and they never seem to get out of my way.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,206
    . . .literally raped his '95 Geo Prism. . .

    Now, THAT would be worth the price of admission to see.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,278
    I did one autocross event with the BMW club, but it eats up my tires too fast. The Asphalt at Qualcomm's parking lot (San Diego) is from the stone age, so it's very cracked, rough/coarse, broken, gravelly, and just plain bad.

    Mostly have done track events on real tracks with the SoCal Audi Club in Buttonwillow, CA and Pahrump NV (which is this weekend again!)

    Yes, I'm going! 90K miles and redlining it like nobodies business!
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,278

    I did have to replace the CV boots. One of them had come loose and the clamp was off, was at around 65K or so miles so I figured it normal wear and tear. Didn't affect the vehicle except that it would be possible for contaminents to get in where you don't want them over time. I did both because it makes sense to do both, because if one can fail, the other can too imminently. I see coupons in almost every auto shops advertisements for CV joints/boots, so it must be pretty common.

    Only cars that broke down at the last track event I went to were the Maserati blowing a hose (1st lap first day), and the Camaro (brand new model) V6 version (maybe Hertz special?) Automatic transmission apparently overheated and blew.
  • Kirstie@EdmundsKirstie@Edmunds Posts: 10,675
    That's enough on the validity of CR conversation. It's not the topic here, and it's gone beyond a little bit of off-topic chatter.

    Need help navigating? - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,052
    Yes lets get back to m3s, Porsches and how superior the 3 series is.

    Btw good article in ustoday on passat Tdi - 45 mpg- could TD be a real player in this class- love the torque and Mpgs -
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,278
    the S4 myself. An A4 will do if gas prices stay at $5.00 a gallon this summer though.
  • Hello,

    I am in the midst of purchasing a used vehicle. I really like the G35's (specifically the 2007 redesign models) and TL's. I would love to hear some input, views, advice that you guys may have on the two cars. I have been looking in the 2005 to 2007 era, mainly because of financial reason and reliability of those years for these cars.

    If I'm a bit vague, please feel free to ask any questions.

    Thank you!
  • kyfdx%40Edmundskyfdx%40Edmunds Posts: 25,872
    You want AWD, or not?

    Moderator - Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,047
    edited April 2012
    I'm not exactly sure if CR is a publication that I would use as the basis for my automotive purchases. We've been down the "CR argument" path so many times before here on Edmunds, I would assume we don't need to go down it again. I must admit however, that I am not a subscriber but I have taken to reading CR's automotive tests and comments of late because of reading some of the posts here on Edmunds. I was encouraged to see that CR now seems to have more subjective prose (not much more, but a little more) pertaining to the cars under their review. In other words, the CR reviews I have read over the past couple of months no longer seem to have been written by a Vulcan. Indeed, the test reports and comparisons seem to have been written pretty much by actual humans.

    I read, here, posts that discuss "reliability" (one of the WORDS that needs to be used carefully) and often the poster will suggest that the reason they didn't seriously consider a German car (for instance) is that they are unreliable. The poster will continue to say that they went with the Japanese brand (they chose) because of its reliability.

    I know there are lemons from the US, Europe and Asia -- and I know someone will likely have an anecdote to share about how his Audi or Volvo or Buick was constantly in the shop or broke down frequently. And, often the same person will laud the absolute reliability of their fill-in-the-blank car from Japan or Korea or somewhere else.

    I am also going to pass along what might be considered anecdotes, but they might also be considered data points. I can't remember EVER having an unreliable car including my first POC which was a 1963 Chrysler Newport. Moreover, since my wife and I have had over 30 German cars, I can assure you we really would have to go some to claim any of them (even the ones from the 70's) were unreliable.

    It is very difficult to find a car today -- from anywhere -- that would be able to be called unreliable.

    Here, however, is another WORD that probably should enter our vocabularies and that has both a difference and a distinction -- that WORD is "durable" (or durability.)

    The issue, in my mind is not how reliable the car is -- hell, all of these cars are reliable, they won't leave you stranded, and they won't break or have anything major go wrong with them for at least 50,000 miles -- many of them will go double that before any real coin is required to replace a failed part.

    What I have learned -- now having about 40,000 miles experience with two Japanese cars (one Infiniti and one Acrua) is that the Japanese cars have the reputation of being durable and being able to be kept so without breathtakingly expensive maintenance, once the warranty expires.

    The German cars are just as reliable, IMHO, but -- after the warranty expires -- they can be breathtakingly expensive to maintain and they stand the chance of not being as durable as their Asian counterparts, or at least they are perceived to be less durable than the Asians.

    I am not certain what exactly CR means when they speak of the reliability of such and such brand -- for from where I sit they're all very reliable these days. I am constantly told, however, that my Acura is likely to be "the most durable car I have ever had." But often the WORD reliable and durable are used as if they are different words but lack distinction.

    Makes my head spin.

    Are German cars less reliable than Japanese cars? You can't make that case with me. In fact, since I have already had to have the front brake rotors on my 2012 TL turned (due to warpage) and the rear differential oil changed (at great expense, I might add) and the car only has 15,000 miles on it, I would say it is the least reliable, no, check that, least durable car I have had this century.

    My 2009 Audi came will all maintenance paid as did my wife's 2008 BMW -- so far the Acura and the Infiniti seem to visit the dealership for some multi-hundred dollar required "maintenance" procedure about every 3,750 miles.

    If I only were looking at cars as being reliable, I would say the Germans (Audi and BMW) would be at the top of my list since I only had to visit the dealership about once every 10 or 15,000 miles, and when I did the visit was "no charge."

    My point is we need to use the correct word to describe these cars -- and I suspect what we mean when we say "reliable" is "durable."

    These cars, today, are all reliable -- some, however, are more durable than others. I suspect the Germans can be as durable (as the Japanese) with breathtakingly expensive maintenance procedures applied regularly after the 50,000 initial warranty expires. But since most of these cars are leased (the Germans, most certainly), most folks get rid of the cars before durability becomes a factor.

    CR is best used to buy toasters, not cars, if you axe me. :confuse:
  • I'm indifferent about the drivetrain - not a make or break decision for me.

    I'm currently coming from a FWD vehicle, which I know the TL is.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,093
    Excellent post as always mark. Pretty much every car on the road today is reliable. None, especially in this class of Mid $30 to $50K cars is going to leave you stranded on the side of the road.

    There's always the debate about how much value there is in BMW's including scheduled maintenance as part of the car's price. Now I don't have the receipts in front of me, so I'm going from memory here. I planned on keeping my former TSX for the long haul. In the almost 50,000 miles I owned it, I changed the oil (full synthetic) 5 times. Every time I brought the car in for an oil change, I had the dealer rotate the tires. There's $500 right there. I also had to have the rear brakes replaced at 33,000 miles. I was partially reimbursed for this via a class action law suit settlement. I had to have the front rotors resurfaced. Now Im a pretty educated car guy and know that most of the "major services" that are "recommended" are unnecessary, but They aren't cheap. I wonder how many people walk into the deslership's service department and tell them that the car calls for a B1 service and get charged $250 - $300 for what amounts to nothing more than a visual check and an oil change.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,047
    edited April 2012
    "I wonder how many people walk into the deslership's service department and tell them that the car calls for a B1 service and get charged $250 - $300 for what amounts to nothing more than a visual check and an oil change."

    Well that describes me -- hell, I came from an Audi and the mntce was "free," but every damn time I go in for an Acura "oil change" somehow, someway it turns out to be some $200+ -- and I think there are robots stealing my luggage too, come to think of it.


    Maintenance included has really spoiled me. :sick:
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,093
    There are some services besides oil changes that are vital & necessary for a vehicle's long term durability such as brake fluid, transmission fluid, differential fluid (why was that needed so early, btw?), coolant, & spark plugs.

    Remember, a dealership's service department usually makes the dealer more money than they make selling new cars. Most coolant & transmission fluid changes on Hondas are simple "drain & fill" procedures. The dealer can charge more money for a "power purge" service of these same procedures. Unless the car specifies something I mentioned above be changed or done, just tell them you'd like just the oil & filter changed.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,896
    edited April 2012
    Simply open the manual and get just the recommended service that the engineers that built your auto recommend. Dealers publish their own "over and above" suggested maint. items but they are just money makers and serve no real purpose to the operability or longevity of your car. I've had an Infiniti for almost 10 years(95k miles) and probably haven't spent more than a $1500 in routine maint the whole time. Oil changes are about $30-$40 and the dealer always rotated the tires for free during the original warranty period. Now Costco does it for free as part of their tire deal. That's about $150 a year and there were several years where it was just two oil changes and that was it. Total repairs to this vehicle are also under $500 although I do need a new power antenna. All in all very inexpensive except for the fact that it sucks gas.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,427
    edited April 2012
    Well, before I bought my 328, I went to the service dept. to talk what "free" really means. You see those "EVERYTHING EVERYTHING EVERYTHING BUT TIRES FREE commercials all the time. Surely enough, alignment is not covered. And of course, wouldn't you do a fuel induction system cleaning. Prices? $200 for alignment and $200 for cleaning. So your "free" maintence visit turns into dropping over four hundred bucks for services that can be performed at third in any other place and who knows if you even need one.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

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