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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans



  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    Sweeny is just string the pot like he always does, we all know that F1 cars are not manual anymore, if a stick was better then all race car would have them, they do not. Period...
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,106
    Figured you would jump in with another greAt post - one that shines no light and adds zero value- so we enter the Flight Zone-
    Btw this is an Ellps board right.
    Who mentioned a golf? I did say GTI.

    Re- read my first post on the matter- or read it again for the first time.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    Sweeny your argument has some weak spots, First it is ok to have a auto is you have a 40 mile commute on the Merrit,so why not have the best of both worlds, the DSG/DCT give the commuter the auto they need when commuting to work and the Manual when they play on the track.

    Sweeny when was the last time you took your G on the track? So have you drive it like 99% of people in america, to and from work and to run errands? Are you the type that will play ricky racer from stop light to stop light?
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,106
    edited May 2012
    Part 2 of the Flight Zone: you read my original post yet? Fully this time-

    Who's talking about the track? I never mentioned tracking at all - stay on point. I do understand people getting autos for the simple reason of being in traffic for a large portion of a cars use. Comment above about f1, while they do use a semi-auto gears - key term is semi.......
    (wiki) automatic gearboxes, and systems such as launch control and traction control, are illegal, to keep driver skill important in controlling the car- they want to keeep the driver engaged at all times, basically my original point from the post I linked to you.

    Staying in the flight zone--

    To answer your questions- have I tracked my g- no. Do I drive it to work and run Errands, no I have my butler Jeeves run my errands - and since my iPO going public tommorrow I will not work again.
    Do I blast from stop light to stop light, only when I see 45k BMW 328s (with autos) sitting across from me. Sometimes I race these 328s for pink slips, I have a few for sale sitting in my garage.

    I've done various schools- from skip barber to Team oneil - 8 different times on all types of tracks, on pavement, dirt and snow- not one of the cars I drove - from m3 to subi to mazda 3 to corvette was an auto or dct or whatever the auto lovers call the computer that changes gears.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,068
    edited May 2012
    You have made one probable misstatement in your post -- typically a car that is ordered and awaited for months CAN be discounted more than one that is already on the lot due to the costs associated with what are called holding costs.

    Cars that are ordered should be cheaper and will be EXACTLY what you want. I find it amazing, confusing and, frankly, disappointing that dealers stock ANY cars other than what can be used for test drives.

    On the other hand, I realize the near suicide this suggests for American car dealers. I was literally unable to order a car, THE car, as I wanted it. The dealer gave me a 24 hour deal -- 87% of sticker on THE ONLY one that he had that was equipped as I wanted it, just not in the color combo I wanted.

    I have no idea how they did the deal, 13% is huge -- yes?

    I took the car, off the lot, with the worst interior color imagined by a human: black.

    And now I must apologize to those who think a black interior is a good thing -- despite the fact that it makes the car seem so much smaller inside, so drab and confining.

    Anyway, typically (especially for European cars) buying by ordering will get the best price.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    Sweeny I fully understand that to make you feel better about yourself you have to make other feel worse about themselves.

    When this whole talk about Auto (DCT/DSG) vs stick there was no talk that the car had to a ELLP. When other talked about Lambo's and Ferrari's you dismissed them. Doesn't matter what forum we are in, when you make a blanketed statement that only true performance cars have a stick, this allowed people to bring in other cars to show you were wrong.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,068
    I am amazed at seeing yet another series of posts lauding stick shifts, suggesting or even outright saying that if you were driving a stick shift that everything would be better., there is no

    Stick shifts are great fun, of that there is no doubt.

    I guess manual transmissions are also more economical and -- in some cases -- quicker.

    An argument can be made that you are a better driver if you drive a stick. Likewise it can be argued that you can be make your car perform better IF it has a stick-shift.

    But the reality is that most Americans have no interest in stick shifts, hence the difficulties in finding them, unless your order one.

    Stick shift cars are, practically, not technically speaking, DEAD. Even in Europe they are dying.

    An 8-speed automatic European car is pretty nice to drive -- as is a 7 speed Japanese car. Even some six speed autotrans are good these days.

    Ultimately, no one will offer a stick shift -- due to lack of interest from the market.

    No car maker -- like BMW -- will offer a car with ONLY a manual transmission (other than their top of the line which will remain automatic) due to customer acceptance.

    Live with it, I say.

    I ordered my last stick shift in 2003, knowing the direction would be more autos and few stick shifts as every day passes.

    Where we are today is not the worst place we could imagine -- and frankly I wish we all drove automatics -- OH wait, we're almost there already.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,475
    You are right and wrong at the same time. It is a matter of psychology. One one hand, it is true that car ordered should be cheaper as dealer will not bear storage costs. On the other hand, many dealers, especially those in smaller markets are seeing special orders as opportunities to play classic "hard to get" game - they see you as already committed, so why bother to be aggressive with pricing. This is especially true on Euro delivery on BMW - dealers around my place don't even want to hear about discounting those. Of course, a threat to get it in place hundreds of miles away may work, but you must be ready to make good on it. I saw that playing so many times that it is not even funny.

    There are also other factors, like monetary incentives to move current inventory, no holdback on some brands (IIRC BMW, Audi), allotments and general "instant gratification" culture. At least German brand dealers are used to people ordering, but in many other places you see those deer in headlights faces, when you mention special combination and order in places like Toyota or Honda dealership. But even there it may not go as smoothly - last year I made an order on 2011 and it did not go through, cause they already closed the allotments on production. Lucky I got one a few months later.

    So many people would really have a hard time to understand why I would wait three months for a car, I had to explain myseld. The instant purchase is quite unique to American market - in many other countries people exactly order and wait a few months and think nothing of it, but here the market is better equipped to handle guy taking the blue one from Bay 25 than one picking options from the catalogue.

    So, there is a difference between what should/could be and what really is in practice.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,393
    Again dino001 you bring up some excellent points. "Like it a lot" is an understatement. I've proclaimed my love for my 328xi over and over. I got an excellent selling price (over $5400 off the $44K sticker), a low money factor (although not as low as the 0.9% APR for 60 months they were offering), and a high residual (64% for 15K per year plus 10,000 miles extra) of $26,406. I paid only a $795 bank fee, $350 for new CT plates, $72 1st months pmt, a $12.50 NY tire fee, & taxes on these fees. I made a $0 cap cost reduction & didn't pay a security deposit.

    At the end of my 2 1/2 year lease, my car will have 50,000 miles. Will the car last longer? Absolutely. I have no doubt that the Inline 6 motor and the E90 chassis each in their last year of a model run will be close to bulletproof.

    Yes I will know the car. I know there are literally thousands of similar 328xis that will flood the market in late summer/early fall 2014. Private owners always think their car is worth more than it is & dealers charge insane amounts for loaded up, low mileage, creampuffs. My parents each had 2 modern era BMWs (Dad - '04 X5 & '07 X5, Mom - '05 530i & '08 328xi) that both held up very well for between 10 & 30K past their respective warranties. Even my wife's former '07 X3 was only at the dealer for scheduled maintenance for the 3 years/ 45K we had it.

    If I wanted to buy the car out at a nice discount at the end of the lease, I would wantr to pay cash for it. I'm not so keen on the idea of taking out a loan on a used car with 50K miles that's going to need tires and a whole slew of maintenance (i might go for the extended maintenance pkg).

    Time will tell & we shall see.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited May 2012
    If you can bring your car someplace with room to play, a stick shift can add fun to driving. And although having an automatic transmission on a twisty mountain road might dilute some of the fun, I don't think it is fair to say that the MT is some kind of requirement for enjoying a sporty car.

    Because in this segment, there are many things that dilute the fun of driving, of which the auto transmission is only one.

    If one is serious about enthusiast driving, then one will not buy a car that is needlessly saddled with hundreds of pounds of sound-deadening material, power/luxury items, and computer-controlled safety systems.

    By removing a few hundred pounds of fat, car makers could equip cars with smaller and lighter engines, wheels, tires, and brakes and yet sacrifice no performance. What enthusiast would say no to that?

    And while I do love the thrill of shifting my own gears, heel-and-toe downshifting, etc., I also really miss threshold braking. What a challenge it was to approach a corner under full throttle, transition to braking riding that fine line just above lockup, then trail-braking to the apex before tracking out. Anyone can push a clutch - this took real skill to master.

    So really, if someone is going to claim the superiority of the MT, then they must also condemn those who have ABS equipped cars, heavy cars, large cars, luxury cars, etc. - really, any car that isn't purpose-built for sport is a compromise. If they don't do this, then they are simply drawing an arbitrary line in the sand.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    Hey Fed, I wonder how often people really know what you were talking about, trail braking, heal and Toe, threshold braking etc... You are right it is one thing to push the clutch in and change gears, but it is another to be able to do this while the back end is sliding out and counter steer around a corner.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,106
    edited May 2012
    Smg, dct, rmv - all take a backseat to a short throw manual. If you are buying an m3 or a 335 or a 335s or a s4/5 or a Gti for that matter and don't spin your own gears - why bother.

    Here come the arguments about how far they've come- better mpgs, faster to 60- sorry. If the car has a sweet manual available - its tHe only way to go.

    no comments about it being superior, nothing about 'only true performance cars, just a comment about my thoughts on a sweet manual. I like when guys throw out terms and statements that have nothing to do with the orginal comment - you can talk about F1, Lambos - all you want-

    Once again this Blog, number one -- Your welcome Edmunds.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,092
    edited May 2012
    markcincinnati....I agree about buying ordered cars. BMW makes it attractive to take European delivery of an ordered car, for example. On the other hand, as you pointed out, some dealers act like ordering a car should "net" them extra $$$ for the effort. There's practically no effort involved, short of checking a few boxes on a computer screen and entering your contact information.

    One of the BMW dealers tried this when I was trying to get my car from the port. They acted like there was something special, difficult, and unusual about that. And, they felt they should charge me for that privilege. They either couldn't, or wouldn't, make the effort to get the car from the port. Yet, my selling dealer could...and not charge me for the effort. My selling dealer told me "sure....we'll get problem". They didn't even want a deposit.

    I was going on vacation right after I spoke to them. They said they'd have it ready for me when I got back a week later. They did just that. It was waiting for me all shined up in the showroom the day I returned.

    I've bought new cars in configurations I didn't 100% desire in the past (usually a color I didn't care for...either in or out). I've bought them "on the cheap" figuring that would placate me. It never did. The undesirable parts of the car became more and more of an issue, that I usually got rid of them pretty quickly (not that I need much reason to buy a new car to begin with).

    But, I understand those who might do that. And, for good reason if the price is right. I just know me. I'll waste more money in the long run by doing that.

    Finally, it's totally ridiculous to think the only good sports cars (or any car for that matter) come with manual transmissions. Last post from me on that matter. Why bother with such silliness.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,496
    I ordered my BMW via European Delivery.
    US MSRP was just over $57K.
    Agreed selling price was just over $50K.
    - Ray
    One data point...
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,475
    edited May 2012
    Wow, your terms are better than I even imagined. I think 26K plus tax for 2.5yr/50K miles 328xi may be higher than one may want to pay, but again, it is not completely outrageous, especially in context of knowing the car and getting a huge discount you got when you bought it and while you're paying your lease. It is basically giving a portion of that discount back, but if you love the car.... However, I can also see why you'd want to move on. All I'm saying don't rule it out just yet - simply wait until the time comes...

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,475
    edited May 2012
    I observed the same thing. "Special order" is read by some dealers as a code word "I can take you for everything you got and you should thank me for my kindness". I would not be surprised if there were regional differences in that attitude. Here in Tampa I only know two people who did that: I and my Russian buddy pal. The natives don't even get the concept of order (well, not all of them, of course, but you get the idea). And the marked adpapts to that.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    Ray great price, it must have been a leader ad according to some people.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    Graphic when I bought my 05, the dealer never played games with me when it came down to price. Going in, I knew the price I was willing to pay for the car, and at the time, a 330i coupe fully loaded with the ZPH package was selling for MSPR off the lot. However, I knew that there was a 3% saving off the top when doing the Euro Delivery, so I knew there was wiggle room with the price. I was able to get my 330 out the door for less then MSRP. I got the car I wanted, with almost the color combo (the ZPH cars only came in black or grey leather, I wanted Tan) but other then that it was what I wanted. The hardest part was waiting to drive it in Europe and then again waiting for it to arrive at the BMW dealer after coming back from Europe.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    Dino is it the dealer in general or the sales person that makes the difference? The other issue is instead gratification, people do not want to wait 6-8 weeks for their special ordered car to arrive. When I ordered my 05, I would hear people say, "Oh, I know someone who did that and when they got their car, it wasn't what they ordered." That might happen, but didn't for me and countless others who have done it. This might be the reason why I'm not a fan of the Japanese ELLPs, since I wanted it my way, and since the Germans' and American auto manufactures allow me to it I'll continue to go that route.

    On a side note, I love Tampa, reminds me of my home town of San Diego, also I love Babalu's over in St Pete, their wings and Grouper Nuggets are worth the trip when I'm in Tampa.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,475
    edited May 2012
    I think it may be combination of dealer culture, regional market and the person as well. Also brand. For example, BMW claims that all their cars are dealer's orders, which basically means they give them allotments on model, but dealers have to order the configurations. I sometimes see really silly results of that, like 328i loaner with premium, sports, sunroof and NO fold-down seats. Actually, I heard it is quite common (3-series w/o fold-down seats) - I can only imagine faces of a new-to-BMW customers getting one from the lot and the discovering they can't fold it, but neighbor's 10-year old Chevy or Kia can.

    Moreover, BMW actually has some colors/interior available only as orders (you can see it online), which means dealers sometimes make up fake customers to get them (e.g. LeMans blue only available as special order with M-package on previous 3-series was one of those). So order is part of their culture. On the other side of the spectrum is Honda - no orders AT ALL - they make what they want and then stick it to the dealers to sell. They make them in batches (same cars coming off the line in series), which reportedly improves quality, but limist dealers. There were some stories of big time corruption in Honda of USA, where dealers were bribing regional managers to get popular models/trims. Other brands may have a "mixed culture", allowing some order flexibility. That definitely explains some stories of cars not fitting the orders - I would not be surprised if dealers were faking taking the order and then trying to fit whatever customer ordered to cars available in transit.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

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