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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    ....and called it a Boxster??
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,052
    Only if they marked it up 15k, because they are the most profitable company in the world.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,653
    what a mere $32k bought me in 2001

    what would be 41.8K in today's dollars (ouch)...or 10K less than a BASE Cayman.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,707
    It's good to hear that they finally fixed the issue to a certain extent, but the issue was only finally fixed in 2009. All Porsche designs that use the intermediate shaft design are going to fail. Not if, but when. Sure, they did other tricks to keep the things lasting a bit longer, but the overall design itself was rubbish.

    Just something to keep in mind when you think about buying a "2 to 3 year old Cayman". Be *sure* it's a 2009 or newer model, since the engines are horrendously expensive to fix.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited December 2012
    Not sure where you got your Porsche expertise, but you aren't related to my brother in law, are you? As a union electrical contractor, he is essentially forced to buy GM or Ford or suffer career consequences. So he comes up with comments like "I'd be holding my breath" on expensive repairs, mechanical failures, etc. when I bought a 911S back in 2005. As it turned out, he went through two Cadillac Escalades in the 5 1/2 years I had the 911, took massive depreciation hits on both, had POS quality issues with each, and had to actually sue his GM dealer over warrant repairs that were faulty. I had 3-4 oil changes and 1-2 minor warranty repairs that were all handled professionally. Yes, Porsche hourly service rates are definitely higher than Joe Goodwrench. But fortunately, I didn't need to use them, other than for a few oil changes. And my experience, as well as that of my colleagues, has been consistent with the fact that Porsche and Lexus have been interchanging top spots for quality and reliability the past several years.

    If you have had first hand Porsche experience to the contrary, sorry to hear that. Porsche is good, but by no means perfect, and the pre-2005 996 RMS issues were not handled as well as they should have been. But, if you are related to my brother in law and perhaps have an axe to grind against someone who prefers Porsche to Scion, that's not my issue to address.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited December 2012
    what would be 41.8K in today's dollars (ouch)...or 10K less than a BASE Cayman.

    I seem to recall a new Honda S2000 was still under $36,000 when they ended production for 2010. In November 2001 (2002 MY), the S2000 was at least $15-25k+ less than all of its competition of the day - SLK, Boxster S (base Boxster was only 201hp), Z3 3.0i.

    In addition, the S2000 had an options list that had exactly 1 item on it: pick your color. Everything else was standard - leather interior, power roof, etc.. It was a pretty spartan car compared to a Lexus, but it delivered on true sports car performance and engineering that only the Boxster S could match at a price of $55k, reasonably equipped. Which has now grown close to $75k, similarly equipped in 2013. Even the Base Boxster today - albeit a enormously improved car compared to the 2002 base Boxster - is $60k+ with "normal" options. A base Cayman for $52k?? Are you sure you don't want a steering wheel with that, sir? :)

    P.S. Edmund's Host, if you are watching: I recall that when I bought my 2002 S2000 in November 2001, the MSRP was $32,880 and Edmunds TMV for the DC region was $36,000, $3,200 OVER MSRP. In California, it was higher still. Perhpas you can check Edmunds archives to verify? This was 2 full years after the car was first introduced. The high demand, limited supply was still resulting in dealer premiums. I only got a discount because of an early snowfall, 10 weeks after the 9/11 terrorist attacks. By the following spring, I had offers to sell the car for more than I paid for it - back to the dealer.
  • Here you go

    Research to your heart's content... ;)

    Moderator - Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited December 2012
    Thanks, although that doesn't show what Edmunds TMV was back in 2001. Which...is just fine. I need to reprioritize my time and focus on the future if I'm going to be able to write the check for a Cayman S come April.
  • I think Edmunds started the Prices Paid forums in 2003.. So, that would have been after the "over sticker" days of the S2000...

    I've only been a Host since 2005, so not my fault... ;)

    Moderator - Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,707
    edited December 2012
    Do a search via Google or Bing for "Porsche ims failures". Numerous sites explain that the issue affects all M96/M97 engines. The issue is that the design doesn't lubricate the bearings adequately. The problem is exacerbated by automatics and typical American driving patterns since the engine is designed to run properly (and lubricate itself properly) with frequent 5K RPM shifts.

    If you run it like you stole it and have a manual, it'll last about twice as long. If you put racing oil in it, you'll likely be fine as that's close to Euro standards. American oil is also far to low ppm zinc to give any level of fallback if the engine starts to wear out.

    According to independent analysis, they are rated for 90% reliability at 90K miles. At a constant speed of 60mph. Yes, that means you can expect 10% of the bearings to fail by 90K miles. And if you run it faster than that, it'll wear out faster. If you run low ppm oil in it or don't change it regularly, it'll wear out faster. If you lug the engine or have an automatic, it'll also wear out faster.

    The bearings are garbage and essentially need to be replaced like a timing belt at 60-70K miles to be safe.

    At $2500 cost. (10 hours labor plus $900 in parts last I checked, plus tax.) Quite a steep "service item". To top it all off, they look at you like you are daft if you question this logic. I mean, the first 15K mile service cost a mere $500 (a couple of rounds of golf), so why are you complaining about a $2500 bearing change every 4 or 5 years?

    You have to love Porsche dealers...
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Or you install the LN Engineering upgrade once and you're good.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,707
    Yeah, that's the $2500 "fix". The one nice thing is that you can get a lot of used Boxsters and Caymans with blown engines for literally nothing. Rebuild the engine and upgrade the IMS bearings and you're golden.

    But buying new or CPO, yeah, get a 2009 or newer.

    All of that said, though, I dearly miss the S2000. They really need to make a replacement version of it. Maybe a little more bling and a hard top as well. I'd still rather have a S2000 versus a Cayman.
  • If you really, really wanted to know, you could use the "help" link at the top of this page, then choose the "contact us" option. There's a person, or several people, who provide historical values, but really only by request that way.

    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • flightnurseflightnurse at 35K feetPosts: 1,524
    I have to to give it to Acura when the NSX had the snap ring issue, they stepped up and would replace the transmission with no questioned asked. Of course this only effected some of the 91 ans 92 NSX's. So how Porsche done the same thing with the problem? This to me shows if the manufacture really cares about its reputation or not.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Porsche sort of acknowledged the problem by beefing up the IMS bearing in later (M97) models. I don't believe there are many (or any?) instances of failure with the M97.

    Just one of several good reasons to just say no to water cooled Porsches IMHO... :)
  • flightnurseflightnurse at 35K feetPosts: 1,524
    I have to say this has been an interesting threat about the IMS failure, I have extended my search for my fun car between the NSX and a Boxster S, now I am aware of the IMS failure, I know what I'm getting myself into. From the readings here it seems that the IMS should be replaced as a failure will happen at some point and the cost of the replacement is much less then the cost of a new engine.

    So if porsche is aware of the problem why haven't they helped owners out like Acura had done with the Snap Ring on the NSX?
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited December 2012
    Dont know. Could be the general European attitude about planned obsolescence. Who knows?

    The nice thing about the IMS issue is you can get an older Boxster for pennies, do the upgrade and end up with a really fine sports car for cheap.

    Ive been toying with the idea of doing this just to keep the miles off my 911.
  • flightnurseflightnurse at 35K feetPosts: 1,524
    I would think that Porsche could pay for the replacement of the IMS to the upgraded one for no cost, this would go a long way in customer relations and if an engine needed to be replaced because of the IMS, Porsche could pay for half or 3/4 of price tag. I'm not too sure how I would feel if I paid 85K for my new (2007) Porsche and 5 years later at 75K miles (or so) needed to spend 20K on a new engine because of a part that Porsche knew would fail... I'm surprised no law suits have been files over this.
  • flightnurseflightnurse at 35K feetPosts: 1,524
    Could be the general European attitude about planned obsolescence

    I'm not too sure if this is really case or that the attitude has changed to have this happen. MB build theirs to last look at the W126 series S class. They are tanks, well build and have lasted. But of course this meant people weren't trading in their S class's as often and MB wasn't selling the cars they wanted.

    In regards to the Boxster, this is why I have been looking at them. One can get a 2005-07 at a good price. Spent 2500 for the replacement of the IMS and have a car that will last a while...
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    All you have to do is look at a new BMW, Audi, Range Rover, etc. to see that the Euro manufacturers obviously dont want the owner servicing the vehicle.

    We are supposed to buy new from the dealer, drive for 3 or 4 years, then trade in on another new one.
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