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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • flightnurseflightnurse at 35K feetPosts: 1,523
    For the price it's an alternative, right? Same engines. Leather , parts., larger cheaper, newer -

    The TSX is smaller than the last 2 generations of Accord, I don't think its the same engine either. Price could be in line, but the people shopping an Accord were not cross shopping a TSX. Friends who bought a TSX never once went to a honda dealer and looked at an accord.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2014-chevrolet-ss-sedan-photos-and-info-news

    Just another Aussie built RWD... When Rick and I were in Australia a few years ago being car nutz, we checked out some of the Ford and GM cars, as far as overall design they are different, not just that they are RHD, they do their own thing when it comes to design. Not saying that it was right or wrong, just different The G8 was a good car, however, the dash design was not what Americans liked. Like i said, I hope GM doesn't screw this one up.
  • flightnurseflightnurse at 35K feetPosts: 1,523
    I like the M too, however, for the price I think a 5 series is a better car. The price for a M56 is slightly less (1,500) then a 550i. I'd take the twin turbo V8 over the INfiniti V8, and a 550i can be had with a manuel, something the infiniti lacks. The E class is not a sport sedan unless you look at the AMG model.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,052
    If price is inline - why would they not shop accord vs tsx? Both have a 4 and a 6 engine - both are Hondas and both can be had with leather- both are fwd. To me it doesn't make sense not to cross shop.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,052
    BMW alert another recall- recall they had a massive recall last year as well.
    If you are among the unlucky 569,000, BMW will notify you next month and tells AP that it will “replace the battery cable connector and secure it for free.” Very nice.

    owners of “3-Series sedans, wagons, convertibles and coupes from the 2007 through 2011 model years, 1-Series coupes and convertibles from 2008 through 2012, or the Z4 sports car from 2009 through 2011,” then BMW is recalling your vehicle.

    Lots of leased cars coming back to the showrooms- could use this also as a time to seduce people to early return cars, CPO could heat up.
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,447
    BMW alert another recall- recall they had a massive recall last year as well.
    If you are among the unlucky 569,000, BMW will notify you next month and tells AP that it will “replace the battery cable connector and secure it for free.” Very nice.

    owners of “3-Series sedans, wagons, convertibles and coupes from the 2007 through 2011 model years, 1-Series coupes and convertibles from 2008 through 2012, or the Z4 sports car from 2009 through 2011,” then BMW is recalling your vehicle.


    Well, I'm one of the "unlucky ones", using your terminology...

    Of the 3 BMW products I currently own, all since new, it's the first recall I've personally had from BMW.

    IMO, some folks make way too much "static" about car recalls. Unless a recall is for something serious (brakes may fail without prior warning, car fuel tank may explode without warning, etc.), I just don't see a recall as a big deal.

    My daughters both drive Nissan products, and both experienced recalls. One was for a potential leaking brake master cylinder inspection, and the other for an incorrectly installed side air bag. In both cases, no defects were found on either car.

    Frankly, as complex as many cars are today, I'm surprised there aren't more recalls.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,052
    edited February 2013
    Well, I'm one of the "unlucky ones", using your terminology...

    Sorry should have added that was a paste job from yahoo news, so not my terminology. I did add the CPO comments on the end.

    Agree recall talk sometimes over done- but with giant recalls come longer lines for those of us that need to go to the dealer for an oil change.
  • mlevinemlevine Posts: 203
    The E sedan comes with sports mode as standard. Front and rear tires diferent sizes which is a pain when replacing them. I agree the AMG package is the true sports package. With me it came down to M37 vs E350 with the tranmission issues swaying me to the MB. I have never been able to get a good deal on any BMW vehicles from the local dealers. I have had the infinitiQ45 loved this vehicle and prior generation QX56 also a great vehicle.
  • flightnurseflightnurse at 35K feetPosts: 1,523
    Sweeny the Honda and Acura have different buyers, this is why someone wouldn't cross shop the Accord and TSX.
  • flightnurseflightnurse at 35K feetPosts: 1,523
    The E sedan comes with sports mode as standard. Front and rear tires diferent sizes which is a pain when replacing them

    That makes it a sport sedan... :confuse: This is why the E class has always done poorly when it's been compared with the mid size sedan of it's price range.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,052
    I would like to know why they have different buyers?

    When I bought (leased) my first new car in 2000, I looked at the v6 accord coupe vs the integra gs-r - the rates at the time very close- integra being stick and was a little sportier won out.

    If I was looking at the ilx or tsx I would look at the accord as well.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,897
    Because his two neighbors didn't think to do it so he extrapulates that out to the entire U.S. population and considers it fact as usual.

    I always look at similar models from the luxury brand versus mainstream brand. Sometimes, depending on inventory or market trends you can actually buy the luxury brand for almost the same price. Case in point was when my wife wanted a SUV and she had decided on a Pathfinder. I knew the QX4 was virtually the same thing but much nicer outfitted and was going away. We made a killer deal on the QX4 that was actually less than we could have bought the Pathfinder for.

    I'm sure there are plenty of people that look at loaded Camrys versus ES, or Accord vs. TSX or even TL, or Fusion vs MKZ. Sometimes you can move up to the luxury division for very little money and have a better warranty, dealer experience, etc. Obviously, this won't always work but it's worth the effort to look. Ergo.....cross shopping.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,052
    Haha guess I was looking more then a neighbor and his one tsx experience.
    If I was looking at Lincoln or even the new Jx Infiniti I def would look at the ford and the pathfinder, why not ?
  • flightnurseflightnurse at 35K feetPosts: 1,523
    Sweeny, really you have no idea why they have different buyers. Basically the difference between Honda and Acura is that Acura is the upscale division or builder of luxury cars and Honda is builder of economy cars. Having the middle class buyer isn't looking at the Accord and TXS. Now if you can show me I am wrong, direct me to the data.
  • flightnurseflightnurse at 35K feetPosts: 1,523
    Because his two neighbors didn't think to do it so he extrapulates that out to the entire U.S. population and considers it fact as usual.

    Well lets get the facts correct, they weren't neighbors, they were friends. They are the typical US buyer, they are not car enthuses. They do not understand the differences between a pathfinder and the now defunct QX4. What I think is interesting is, how you and sweeny try and use YOUR car buying experience and say that is the norm for car buyers.

    Why do car magazines, only test Accords, Camry's, Altima, Malibus, Focus's and not add TSX, MKZ, ES350?
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,052
    edited February 2013
    You are right - I don't know why - that's why I asked the question, which you were quick to answer with "because they don't" then you backed up that insight with your friend didn't cross shop it - and that was presented as fact. I don't have the data because - thus i asked the question- if I knew what the answer was I would not ask the question.

    You answered ". Basically the difference between Honda and Acura is that Acura is the upscale division or builder of luxury cars and Honda is builder of economy cars. Having the middle class buyer isn't looking at the Accord and TXS."

    Why would honda offer a touring edition of that same accord that starts at 33400 buxs? Does that sound like economy? It's more then the tsx- :surprise:

    You and "backwards hat" guy (btw hes been mia)should read a magazine post 1995- new world.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,897
    Too funny. All we are saying is that some people do crossshop like that based on our experience in response to your huge survey of a couple of friends and coming up with a definitive statement that nobody does.

    I don't think being an "auto enthusiustt" puts anyone in a special category. Even people that don't live cars have brains and can recognise value.

    I never even insinuated that most people crossshop those kinds of cars but I know that a lot do. It's silly to assume that just because a couple of friends don't do something that eveyone else in the country doesn't either. If you would say something like "IMO I don't think most people shop for cars that way based on a few of friends buying habits". Then it's clear you really don't know but you have an opnion. But, you rarely do that. You just make definitive statements based on huge assumptions.

    I would agree that most people probably don't crossshop that way and that is one of the reasons that the car mags test cars that are recognised to be in the same category. However, I think another big reason is that car companies don't want their cars compared to economy cars or luxury cars respectively so that is probably one of the conditions that the car companies have when loaning a car for a comparo. In fact, I just read somewhere where Lincoln wouldn't provide a MKZ because the mag wanted to use it in a comparo with some mainstream cars. I read a lot of car sites so I just can't remember where I read that recently.

    If you frequented a lot of the other Edmunds forums or owners forums of mainstream cars you would realize that a lot of people are comparing a Camry to ES etc.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,700
    Sweeny, really you have no idea why they have different buyers. Basically the difference between Honda and Acura is that Acura is the upscale division or builder of luxury cars and Honda is builder of economy cars. Having the middle class buyer isn't looking at the Accord and TXS. Now if you can show me I am wrong, direct me to the data.

    I'll jump in here. It's kind of silly to pretend that every buyer is the same. I know when I was looking at more compact premium sedans a number of years back, I looked at the Passat and the Audi A4. I also looked at the Accord, TL, and TSX a number of years ago. Some people who are very badge conscious won't do that. Others will not care about a badge as long as a vehicle has what they want. And what they want has a lot of variation, too.

    Some people look at ELLPS for the "L"; some look more for the "P". Depending upon which factors are important, cross-shopping with the more "plebian" brands may or may not occur.

    What I suspect is true is that there are *fewer* people who will cross shop. But not nobody. And any of us who pretends we know that percentage is just guessing.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,428
    There may not be a large overlap in Acura vs Honda buyers, but as long as prices overlap, there will be. Some people look at what they can spend first and then they have large flexibility on what they can buy. I'm one of those. O don't look at brands, or labels, I look at what's there. When I was buying my '03 WRX, I cross shoped it with Passat wagon. According to your creed I shouldn't be allowed because they're different cars addressed to different people - I don't care. When it's time for my 328 to go, my next car may be anything between Ford Focus and 5-series. Am I allowed to shop like that?

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • I feel you and yr smart to recognize it! It's the only way for Mercedes to compete with lexus, and Acura! A Kia has way more features!
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,048
    edited February 2013
    Here is a perspective -- I have no proof that this is any more than an anecdote. I suspect, however, the following perspective probably is a data point, therefore of some statistical significance.

    For years I was a brand shopper -- the brand I chose was Audi. Even during the "Audi years," I did, from time to time, shop BMW's. Even when I could see a difference in the cars, I would always factor in a characteristice "for the money." For some time Audi A4's or A6's offered more content for the same money or less money for similar content (compared to the BMW 3 or 5 series).

    Note: all but two of my cars for a period of time were obtained via a 36 month lease.

    When looking at cars based on lease payments, I have found -- even within the past 3 years -- that Premium cars generally have lower lease payments than their down-scale cousins and non-cousins.

    My assumptions why this is so have to do with residual values (which, as we know when they are high tend to reduce monthly payments) and manufacturer's "support" (subventing.)
    Additionally, there are times that the Premium cars are more sharply discounted off MSRP, which also tends to lower lease payments.

    If, for instance, a Honda was shopped against a "similar" Acura (in the eye of the beholder and for purposes of this example) the Acura typically cost "about the same" as the Honda -- and at times (during the calendar end of year sales season) it is possible to lease an Acura for less than a Honda.

    Another example, Audi vs VW -- here you'd think VW would not want Audi subvented leases to cannibalize VW sales, but, it happened/happens.

    Were the shopper to cross shop a VW (as an example only) Passat and compare it (based on lease payments) to an A4, it is possible (or has been in recent times) the A4 will cost about the same as the VW and the Audi will be quattro, have an 8-speed auto and be otherwise equally or better contented than the VW.

    I am not saying these cars are comparable, based on Car & Driver, Road & Track or Automobile magazine comparison tests. Typically the Passat will be compared to a Camry or maybe an Avalon or Maxima. Yet, if you wandered into a giant "auto mall" it is not beyond the pale to imagine someone standing in the Infiniti lot which is adjacent to the Nissan lot to wander over the parking lot to look at the "fill in the blank" and make a comparison of the cars without regard (at that moment) for "price" or monthly payment.

    I am driving a 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD Advance with two accessories on it, which pushed to pre-disounted MSRP over $47K (or maybe over $48K). Since I got a 13% discount off of MSRP on the car it was actually $100 less per month and 6 months term less than a slightly less expensive Audi A4, which is what I thought I would end up with.

    Normally, I would never have cross shopped the A4 with the TL (even though it is possible the car magazines might have run comparison.)

    But for 6-months and $100/mo more for the Audi. :surprise: The TL seemed a bargain.
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