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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,106
    I love the first post directed at me- then the follow up post that is basically my answer to the first question you ask. Now leader ads are your specialty - but instead of trying to be confrontational lets add some value, do a little research - something - the insurance answer is "a lot" just like it would be on a new civic relevant to each selling price.

    Here we go let's go used 3 purchase verse new 3 lease- both examples are 335.
    All information from BMW.com

    09 3 series 42k miles cpo from BMW used website- this
    Selling Price $34,950 (there price prob negotiable)
    2500 down, .9% (promotional rate, doubt a 22 yr old but lets use it)
    Term 48mths, payment 689 a month.

    Brand new 335 2013 special bmw lease
    Vehicle Registered outside N.Y.
    • $389 First months payment
    • $3,000 Down payment
    • $0 Security Deposit
    • $725 Acquisition fee
    • $4,114 Cash due at signing
    Or doing the math 492.47 a month for 36 months
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,163
    Q&D math, 1 more year of payments but after 4 years with the 2009, you are out about $12K, but own the car outright. With the lease, you are 1 year deep into another set of payments!

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,475
    edited March 2013
    But don't you think living in low payment fantasy world is much cooler? ;)
    Who cares about such tedious details as equity, mileage limits, full cost, etc., you can have new 335 for x per month and nothing else matters.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,106
    edited March 2013
    Q&d math? Don't get that term.

    I've never said leasing was better- but it's an option. Also I'm sure under the q&d math someone would also note that interest rates are typically lower on new cars then old ones. -

    Btw over 50 % of those nice bmw3s come back to the show room as lease returns -
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,737
    But don't you think living in low payment fantasy world is much cooler?
    Who cares about such tedious details as equity, mileage limits, full cost, tetc., you can have new 335 for x per month and nothing else matters.


    Yep, pretty soon we'd be expecting people to balance their budgets, too. Live it up like the Federal government! :cry:
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,163
    quick and dirty, meaning I just did it in my head so a little bit ballparked.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,106
    Q&d math - first time I've seen that one for that explanation now i know- wtf, lol and now q&d
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited March 2013
    I bought my Volvo V70 new in 2004 for around $30,000. Paid it off on schedule and haven't had a car payment since 2008.

    It's not as cheap to own and maintain as a brand new car, but so far, the $100/mo I stick in the "car maintenance fund" has more than covered everything that has come up.

    It doesnt have Bluetooth, Nav, iPod connectivity, etc., but it goes down the road like a magic carpet and has never left us stranded on the side of the road. It even looks as good as new (well...from 3 feet away :shades: ).
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited March 2013
    And speaking of used cars, my BMW and Porsche both passed their one year anniversary with me!

    I spent about $3000 on the 911 for a 90K service and new tires a few months ago, but I haven't spent a dime on repairs for the E30. It's going to get an annual oil change next week.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    Your math is not correct as Dino and pointed out, the 2009 you own, the 2013 you do not, so in the end, the 2009 is the better deal, once it is paid off, the kid has something that is worth $$.

    You keep keep accusing me of these "leader ad" crap. however, you have no proof of it, so please show this forum any proof of this, since you are accusing me of something that is not true.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    Hey Fed, you make a strong statement in the fact that your 911 ans 318i are sound cars, I think that the car industry push's cars that people MUST have.. I agree, if I was in the market for a Porsche, I would be looking at a used one, much better deal and I would be able to buy one very close to what I want for a much more reasonable price. Last week Rick and I went to North Scottsdale Porsche (the only Porsche dealer in phoenix) and was looking a Diesel Cayenne. Base $56K, however, the 3 on their lot were in the low $80K. VERY hard to justify those kind off payments, now they had 2, 2009 Cayenne GTS's average price mid $40K, I can deal with those prices... and last 100K miles if taken care of right... Just like most German cars...
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,106
    The math is what the numbers are- nothing more or less its numbers - my math is not my math but actual figures using real world examples- not generalities or random thoughts this is fact. I am not, for or against leasing but as a younger person with little credit or coin I did infact lease and it was a painless - since 25 I've owned all new cars mainly because I was liquid enuf to deal with the higher payment of a new car. I can see both sides of the coin have value.

    The "leader ad" - look if you do a search you will plainly see you are the person who first came up with this term - I understand you might be against leasing but the numbers (math) is more people lease these cars. This article is a little dates but makes my point. http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f37/most-luxury-cars-leased-bmw-mercedes-infi- niti-lead-pack-104834/

    Do us all a favor- reevaluate the attacks - who and what you are against and have some data, an article , a picture or something other then your thoughts to back what you are saying.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Not just Porsche Flightnurse.

    New cars whether leased or owned are just a waste of money. And in the case of the 3-Series, a new one is actually a step down from used. Why anyone would pay $50k for a numb bloated F30 when they could have an E90 for $30k is baffling.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,737
    Your math is not correct as Dino and pointed out, the 2009 you own, the 2013 you do not, so in the end, the 2009 is the better deal, once it is paid off, the kid has something that is worth $$.

    You keep keep accusing me of these "leader ad" crap. however, you have no proof of it, so please show this forum any proof of this, since you are accusing me of something that is not true.


    I once read an article (did not do the math myself). It went something like this:

    At 20 years old, person A buys or leases a new car every three years, then trades/turns in, and repeats every 3 years. After 45 years working life, he wants to retire.

    20 yo person B buys a 3 yo car, drives it 10 years. Buys another 3 yo car. Repeat until retirement. Person B invests the amount that Person A was spending buying/leasing the new cars. Investment returns are averages for past 45 years.

    Even allowing for the greater maintenance costs on the older cars, person B has over a *million dollars* from that invested money!

    Now I'm not saying any of us shouldn't buy/lease that new car - I've done it myself! Just know that it is FAR more expensive to have new all the time, whether leasing or buying.
  • Anyone driven the G35/37x and can compare it to other AWD sedans in snow performance? Like Audi Quattro, Acura SH-AWD, Subaru symmetrical AWD.

    The G37x is rear-wheel biased and AWD only kicks in when wheels slip. Even with snow mode on, I've read plenty about folks fishtailing in snow and being disappointed with its snow performance vis-a-vis other AWD cars they've owned.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,652
    It doesn't take a sophisticated AWD system to be good in snow...
    "AWD only kicks in when wheels slip" doesn't necessarily describe the G37X AWD system, but even a simple system like that can usually get the job done (see Honda CR-V).

    What makes the G37X a little harder to control in the snow are "performance" all-season tires and gobs of power... The tires are crappy in snow and the throttle takes a light touch..

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    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,475
    edited March 2013
    I second that. I'm not objecting to people buying/leasing cars often, I actually have done that, too. I'm definintely not a 10-year holder of a purchased 3-year old car, the longest stint I have done so far was 6 years, I also owned another car until it was 8 years old (I had it for a bit more than 4 years).

    It is wonderful that system made it possible and convenient for somebody to drive a virtually new car all the time (and a nice one) and move from one to another in a seamless fashion, without big hassles. It is also true that some manufacturers subsidize those lease deals, which is effectively lowering their sticker prices without actually doing so. Even with all of that, constantly paying a portion of three years of depreciation (even if it is lowered by a subsidy) is more expensive than buying a car (cash or loan) and say staying just couple of years beyond the warranty expiration. The sweet spot would be eight to ten years, but even six would do for most of the situations, except extreme ones. Many say "you can't own a car beyond warranty, it will fall apart and cost you a fortune" I say there is no evidence of such and let an extended warranty pricing be a guide. Since that is a very profitable product (number of people get fed by just selling them), and 100K mile extension with small deductible on ELLPS will not exceed $4K (most likely it will be about three grand) adding that plus extra planned maintenance of about another 2-3 grand (also most likely less), gives us AT MOST 7 grand average price of extended ownership. In fact, majority of people will pay much less, some unlucky ones will pay more. Nobody will convince me that two times (even) subsidized three year depreciation plus interest (money factor) and fees (two acquisition fees - $1500, two disposal fees - $500-$1000) is less that one time 6-year unsubsidized depreciation plus interest, but no fees plus extra maintenance and repairs/ext. warranty. And 6-years old well maintained car is still nice enough, IMHO.

    The only time the lease thing MAY be a trully cheaper alternative, is when the car is simply not driven by the leasee/owner, or to be more precise, when it is one of those (sorry Nurse and Doggy) "leader ad" deal, when the mileage limit is something like 8-10K per year. That will change the math in lease's favor, even with fees. However, for a normal commuter living in places like mine (no real public transit, 15-20 mile one-way just to get to work), the three year lease, even heavily subsidized, is a much more expensive proposition vs. extended ownership. It offers a convenience to those who will not be able to stay with their three-year old car, but even then it can be a tossup. Hwere is an example: in late 2008 I bought the STI, which I sold in early 2012 (3 years and change). In November of 2008, Lehman Brothers just went bankrupt, nobody was buying anything, Subaru offered $2500 off price that was already 2% under invoice PLUS 0% APR financing for 63 months. Basically $36.5K (plus fees, TTR, roughly $40K total) sticker became $29K ($33 with all taxes and fees). Three years later I sold it for $22.8K, 69% of total transaction price. It just so happened that the Japanese earthquake choked the new car supply to the point that used ones had prices beyond ridiculous. The lease offered at the time of purchase was at somewhere around 50% residual, i.e. $18 grand (not subsidized, and MF and all fees were definitely NOT zero). It was just a fluke, but even if I sold/traded the STI at originally projected value of $18K, the lease MF and fees would still be far more than the financing of the loan. At that time I investigated the lease becuase I did not consider STI to be my long-term choice anyway, but even with that the purchase showed to be much better course of action.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,099
    edited March 2013
    ky.....how'd you do this a.m. driving around?

    Noticed you're looking at a "Saaburu". Are you buying it?

    Got an invite for a "private event" to see the Acura RLX roll out. Also got an invite to look at the '13 Accord on the form of a $25 Mastercard. That was on top of the $50 Mastercard I got from Ford at the Chicago Auto Show.

    Car companies sure like to hand out money to people who aren't in the market.

    Dino...while I rarely keep a car past its warranty period, I agree...today there's little reason not to. All cars are more reliable today than at any time in history.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,652
    Roads were just wet on the "good" side of the river, so no issues... Still have my snows on the BMW... It's my wife that drives the G37X and she works from home....

    I made my offer on the Saabaru at 8:30 pm on Saturday night... guessing he wasn't too happy to get an offer of $500 less than asking... because, I haven't heard back from him... yet... (but, not everyone works 24/7.. lol)

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  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,099
    edited March 2013
    Good to hear everything is safe in the "holler". No issues up here, either.

    Given the dwindling market for Saabs (regardless of their origins), I'm suprised the dealer didn't offer to split the difference with you. If you get it, can't wait to hear the road story bringing it back.
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