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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • Thanks for your insight dino001. You are right, I think I am not really looking for the "P". I will test drive the other cars and see what I feel.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    All the other cars on your list are going to be too "sporty" for you I suspect. Sporty meaning too small inside, too harsh riding, and/or too noisy.

    I agree with others that you should consider the Buick Lacrosse and Toyota Avalon. I would also add the Hyundai Genesis to the list.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,154
    the Infiniti would be out anyway due to MPG, smoothness, and back seat. And no way are you getting that much space out of the 3 series.

    The Lexus I believe is a bit roomier than the others. Not sure if big enough. Avalon, probably a fine choice, if you can live with the plebeian badge!

    Getting into a MB E class or a BMW 5 series is going to really up the ante.

    the Buick, could be a fine option. If you want domestic, a Chrysler 300? Hey, if you are going big, go REAl big!

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • carnaughtcarnaught Posts: 1,577
    FWIW, the new Avlon-based ES Lexus has a huge amount of rear seat leg room.
  • Yes, it does. I did test drive the lexus and it fit the two booster seat and still comfortable for the third person in the middle.

    To respond to stickguy :
    I think you are right that infiniti and 3 series might not have exactly what I am looking for, but I will still go test drive them.
    Do not really want to go with Avalon. Want a little higher brand name like Lexus.
    Cannot afford the E class or 5 series. Would have loved them.

    I really appreciate all the feedback from all of you. Very good points and educational.
  • mvs1mvs1 Posts: 462
    edited April 2013
    Between my wife and I we've owned/leased each of these vehicles over the past say ten years and add to this an Audi A4 and Lexus RX. I'd like to share my opinion on what you have posted, but do encourage you to drive everything you're interested in. Car buying...test driving is fun and vehicles are expensive, so enjoy picking out what you like.

    Many of the important items you'll get with any of the cars you've listed. As some others have pointed out I think the back seat may pose the biggest challenge. I think the ES or even the A4 might serve best in this area. Since low maintenance cost over 200k miles is important, personally I'd flunk the German brands out. On both my ES and RX, I just did routine services over both vehicles with each exceeding 150k miles, so my experience with Lexus regarding low cost maintenance was great. However BMW and Audi with Audi care provide free scheduled maintenance over 50k miles. However over 200k I'd expect service to cost more on these models.

    Your quiet and smooth to drive speaks Lexus as well. My wife complains my BMW is a harsh ride since I have a sport package and low profile tires. Speaking of the BMW, I have a 335. This car and the 328 are very different vehicles to drive, so drive them both to experience the difference. Both are much more focused on sporty vs. luxury.

    Based on what you've listed, I actually think the Lexus RX would get you everything you want but the mileage since its an SUV....and no longer a performance luxury sedan, however I wouldn't consider the ES (which the RX is based off of) one either.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Posts: 1,577
    The ES has much more backseat legroom than the A4.

    In a nutshell, BMW compared to Lexus is much more fun to drive than ride in. Vice versa for the Lexus.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    Fed, I was thinking of the Genesis, but he want FWD, and the Genesis is RWD.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,154
    The Azera is comparable to an ES. and quite roomy. Though of course, without the prestige badge!

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    Do not really want to go with Avalon. Want a little higher brand name like Lexus.

    I love this line, and people wonder why Lexus has done so well, they took the reliability of Toyota and added more luxury and charge 10-15K more for the same car and people run to the dealership in droves...

    The new Avalon sounds like the car you are looking, but doesn't have the higher price tag...
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,098
    lexusbuyer....yes, do yourself a favor and test drive the others you mentioned, if for no other reason to satisfy your curiosity.

    But, it does sound like you have your heart set on the ES. Not a bad choice for what you want.

    Good luck in your search and let us know what you chose.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,475
    edited April 2013
    added more luxury and charge 10-15K more for the same car and people run to the dealership in droves...

    It is a very smug thing to say, especially the way you expressed it. It is not "the same car". There is no Toyota version of IS, GS or LS sedans. Yes, ES and SUVs from Lexus have their Toyota's counterparts, but again, it's not fair to say they are "same cars, just charged 10K more". I read, or heard somewhere that even chassis are significantly different in terms of fabrication (e.g. significantly more welds). I suspect the difference between same-platform Toyota and Lexus is no less than say between Audi A3/A4 and VW GTI/Passat. Actually, I think 3-series and 5-series are much more similar than Avalon and ES. They share a lot of components, both inside and out, yet nobody would even think of saying "people run to dealerships and buy same 3-series for 10 grand more". It is simply unfair and demeaning to say something like that. There is a lot of dumb people around, but making such statement is to simply say every Lexus buyer must be a stooge, because he/she could get same thing for 10 grand less. I disagree.

    I'm not a nameplate guy myself, so I don't really support the LexusBuyer's sentiment. I would be more than happy to switch back to a Hyundai if a particular model met all my equipment and driving experience criteria and did not feel like I have to explain it to anybody. I bought what I bought because all other similar vehicles (Audi A4 wagon, Subaru Legacy GT Wagon, etc.) were discontinued by the manufacturers and before they were, they didn't even have manual transmissions anyway. I like the nameplate (everybody does), but for the right amount of money, I would easily let it go and keep the change. However, I would never say that Lexus/Infiniti/Audi buyer does not get additional benefit over Toyota/Nissan/VW buyer - and it is not just espresso machine in the dealership. There are tangible differences between those. It is matter for discussion if they are worth the premium charged, but just to say that people pay 10 grand for (presumably) nothing is wrong.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • Have you looked at the price for Avalon recently flightnurse? If I go for the limited Avalon XLE with technology package, it is the same price as Lexus ES350 with luxury package. If I do not go with the limited Avalon, it is around 4 - 5K less. So there is no 10 - 15K difference. So lets not just use generic statements and be factual.

    The prestige badge does matter to me, but up to a certain price.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    edited April 2013
    It is a very smug thing to say, especially the way you expressed it. It is not "the same car". There is no Toyota version of IS, GS or LS sedans. Yes, ES

    Dino the whole conversation has been about the ES, not the IS or GS or LS has it? Which started off as a tart up Camry and continued until the last generation.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    The Avalon is a bigger car, so if you want the room in the back seats, this is the car to go with. I have never been a big fan of Lexus, most of the Lexus line is a tart up Toyota, The ES was a Camry, the LX and GS are 4 runner and a Land Cruiser.

    So if you want a Lexus, go buy one... If you want a bigger car with more rear room, buy a Avalon and save yourself roughly 2K, since the Lexus dealer doesn't normally make deals on their cars

    BTW, the last generation ES was a tart up Camry which was 10-15K less then a ES.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    Yes, it does. I did test drive the lexus and it fit the two booster seat and still comfortable for the third person in the middle.

    How big was this third person? A small child, or a very small frame adult?
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,475
    It's true, but you seem to knocked the entire brand in your comment, not just ES - or at least that's how I read it.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    However, I would never say that Lexus/Infiniti/Audi buyer does not get additional benefit over Toyota/Nissan/VW buyer - and it is not just espresso machine in the dealership. There are tangible differences between those.

    Dino, give me examples of these tangible differences? Other than the fact that the decorations of the dealerships are different.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,475
    edited April 2013
    BTW, the last generation ES was a tart up Camry which was 10-15K less then a ES.

    Well, apples to apples? Top of the line Camry was just about entry for ES, except perhaps Nav, which I'm not sure if it was standard on ES then. TOL Camry was/is over 30K, ES was starting at mid 30s. I think apples-to-apples, the "brand" difference, if you will, was more like 5 grand, no more. And that bought you a few things, from superior upholstery, to better frame fabrication, to some more clever features standard on ES and not even available on Camry. It's not just that ES interior looked better, it had more good stuff in it. My coworker has one so I can see how much good stuff it had. Not sure if Camry did, even at TOL.

    What would likely increase the price difference is amount of discount you could get on Camry vs. ES then. It's probably similar on Avalon/ES today, but I don't know that for sure, as this is part of the market unknown to me.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    The only car that I ever liked of the Lexus line was the original SC300/400, which by the way was a Toyota in Japan called the Soarer. So for the most part, Lexus had and in some ways still uses tart up Toyota's and sell them for huge profits.

    Now, my statement was it wrong, or was it the "attitude" behind that pushed people the wrong way?
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