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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,100
    warthog...just goes to show. Different experiences and expectations by different people. Personally, I found the ATS (both 3.6 and 2.0 turbo) to be coarse (much like the new 4 cyl turbo BMWs that NYC speaks about and the older G 3.7). The performance delta between the 3.6 V6 and the 2.0 4 cyl turbo is negligible. And, despite the ballyhoo Cadillac bombarded us with, it has not sold to expectations.

    The good news is, you can buy a G37 cheap right now. Just helped my sister buy a TL SH AWD (still one of my all time favorites). Good deals on those, too.

    It's hard to beat the smoothness and the sounds the 6 cyl engines in the BMWs, Acuras, Audis, Mercedes, Lexus. BMW should take some lessons from Audi with regards to how to build a smooth, torquey 4 cyl turbo.

    Kind of wanting to drive the Lexus ES after seeing that article. Closest I ever came to owning a Lexus was a few years ago, when the IS350 first hit the streets. Only reason I didn't was the dealership(s) didn't like that I wanted to make a skinny deal on one. Today, they would jump all over such a deal, from what I hear. But, I'm no longer interested.
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Posts: 198
    GRAPH, sort of like me with the GS.
    I remember when I was in college, I was walking in the City and I saw one, I said, I got have one of those in this life time. (PRESENT DAY) The direction Lexus took with the GS has left a bitter taste in my mouth
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,412
    Dino & I kinda think alike when it comes to cars. It is funny that he posted about the F30 on the same day I got my F30 loaner and HAD to comment on it as well.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    You can't compare a ATS 3.6 with a base TL, IF you want to do that then compare it to the stop of the line SH.

    I just rented a ATS 3.6, when I'm out traveling and have time, I check nationals lot to see if I see a "fun" car, and I found the 3.6. It was fun, only had it for 2 days, it is about the same size as the last Gen Lexus IS, and smaller then the current 3 series and TL. This might be the biggest draw back for most people.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,108
    This review - and I'm not a bmw homer like most here- is it more Buyers remorse or just a belief that the old underpowered "smoother" 6 is better then the more effecent and more powerful 4... Doesn't the 4 pull 60 more lbs of torque? Have more hp- have standard leather (sorry I kid)
    I would guess a week in the new rig would result in new results- or review. Or if you leased a 2012 vs a 2011 it would result in buyers bias.

    The old and new bmw are good cars to bad you have to pay extra if you decide to buy and bot lease one.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,412
    I most definitely DO NOT have a shred of buyer's remorse. I do dig the power of the turbo 4. Gobs more power everywhere in the rev range. It is perfectly matched to the new 8 speed automatic as well. I'm just not in love with the F30. The vague electric power steering, the softer suspension, the higher belt line. The base tires have too tall side walls, there's too much of a gap in the wheel wells, I don't care for the front end styling if the car doesn't have Xenon Headlights. Don't get me wrong, the F30 is a nice car. Just not for me.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,593
    the F30 is a nice car. Just not for me.

    That sums up my reaction to a short test drive in the new 335i Sport Line. It's a nice car but lacks the magic of my E46 or for that matter my E39.

    I think I'd like the car better if they'd fix the (electric) steering which was terrific on previous Bimmers.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    and I'm not a bmw homer like most here

    No but you secretly want a BMW and have in the past been looking to buy one so stop playing these games. BTW, the 335 has the smallest engine, lowest HP and torque rating of the group, but posted the fastest 0-60 and quarter mile times of the group now bad for a " underpowered "smoother" 6"

    It's interesting that BMW lost this test by ONE point, and that C&D give it perfect points on many items. Granted the car has gone soft, because that is what the market wants, for the true enthusiast like most people on this board it's not what we want, however, the minority can not keep the company in business like the masses can.

    It has taken Lexus how long to get the IS right? The ATS still can't win a test against the inferior BMW...
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,475
    edited May 2013
    Sween referred to the naturally aspirated 230 hp engine in E9x 328 models, not the 300+ hp turbo six in 335 that you are writing about in C&D test. Two different engines.

    It will take some time to admit it by the fan base, but F30 is a letdown when it comes to sports sedan. That is an opinion, of course,

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,108
    edited May 2013
    Lets go thru this babble one line at a time.....

    "secretly want a BMW" it's not much of a secret if I said I was looking for one various times, also mentioning my frustration on what you get for a new one at certain price pts and also mentioning I was looking used.

    Smother six rant- again was talking 328 vs 328.. So lost here

    C and d mention- no idea how this relates to my post as it was never mentioned- but again this par to the other posts from you.

    "One" in bold comment - bmw lost get over it - one in a million does happen, ask Lloyd Christmas.

    - my comment-

    Any new test drives in the works on cars you would like to drive but have no real intention of buying or have the Scottsdale dealers shut down the window shopping Saturday fun fest ?

    I would also like to mention the counter attacks are more underpowered then the new 320.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,108
    Fair-

    My comment was not directed at just you- every car buyer here thinks the older one is better for a while- then they eventually upgrade and like the newer one better. ..

    Fyi Bmw owners...
    The bmw f30 and d45 numbers mean nothing to non-bmw owners - I'm a car guy - I like 57 Chevy, 72 camaro.. We all know you know what you are talking about but non bmw owners have no idea what a f30 is.

    Btw the 89 maxima might be the most underrated maxima of all time. ;)
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,412
    edited May 2013
    Gotcha. No offense taken. I used to always think the newer is better while having respect to what a previous model was & that people who complained that an older generation of is far superior to the new model were just being stubborn & ridiculous. I really feel that BMW has taken a completely new direction with the current generation 3 series that I personally do not like. Only time & the sales figures will tell.

    E & F codes are BMW speak for certain body styles. The current 320, 328, & 335 sedans are known as the F30.

    The previous generation (like I have) is known as the E90 and was produced (in sedan form) from model year 2006 - 2011.

    From 1999 - 2005, the 3 series was known as the E46.

    Before that from 1992 - 1998, the 3 series produced were called E36

    And finally, from 1984 - 1991 (sedans), the 3 series is named the E30. These are the 3 box design BMWs.

    Nobody is trying to exclude you by any means. I hope I cleared things up for you.

    I got back in my car today after its visit to the dealer (new passenger side headlight assembly, trunk latch, negative battery cable, brake fluid, & cabin filter) and it just feels right. My 230 hp car is far from the fastest car on the road, but it is just so smooth & so right.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,475
    I always wanted new versions and was excited with every new launch. I'm an option hog, newer cars tend to have more equipment standard and more optional. They usually have stronger engines, better transmissions. The chassis are usually stiffer and the ride is usually a bit more refined within each model's target audience. All those were reasons why I liked new models over outgoing ones. New 3-series improves a lot of things on paper - it has more torque (328 anyway), better automatic transmission, it finally has rear split folddown seat standard (but of course 320i does not). It is larger, which majority wanted, but I did not.

    However, there are significant steps back in this model that are important for many who bought previous generations - disastorous steering feedback (I could not believe how bad it was - if it were a Buick I'd say fine, that's how GM positions those cars, but for BMW it is TERRIBLE). The interior has been downgraded - larger space came at cost of quality of plastic switches (they feel harder, more like downscale car) and even iDrive does not feel the same - my old one has a "graded" hump feel with each notch, the new one is a flat ratchet. I know it's nitpicking, but I feel entitled to nitpick a car that came with almost 5 grand price increase (effectively) over old model. Yes, the price is another issue - it is flat out ridiculous. Well equipped 328 goes over 50 grand in a snap (my 328 wagon with Nav, convenience pack, sports pack and premium pack stickered at $46K), 335 shoots to almost 60 grand if you like any of nice conveniences. 50/60 grand for THIS???

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,475
    BTW, the straight six/ vs turbo - I don't expect you to understand this and you don't have to agree. Engine audio effects are indeed non-essential parts of driving experience. All I can tell you I hear the difference and I like the old one more. You don't care and I do. Both is OK. People have different levels of sound sensitivity and awareness.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    It will take some time to admit it by the fan base, but F30 is a letdown when it comes to sports sedan. That is an opinion, of course,

    I think the true enthusiast already knew this... But it's the things to come, if car companies want to make the new EPA numbers something has to go for now, but with the new wave of Diesel engine comes, the tide might turn the other way.Once the CAFE numbers increase, we can only hope.

    In reference to the turbo 6, my comment was in reference that the BMW lost the test by ONE point, but was fastest of all the cars. It lost because of handling...
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,590
    Engine audio effects are indeed non-essential parts of driving experience. All I can tell you I hear the difference and I like the old one more.

    This is why the Alfa GTV6 will always have a special place in my heart, it was the closes car I will ever have to owning a Ferrari. That engine, makes music, get it past 4K, and wow.

    The BMW in-line 6 does the same thing, doesn't stir the soul as much as the V6 alfa, but close.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,108
    I get there are different model codes for cars- infact I'm sure Nissan and ford have different codes for a maxima and the fusion. The fact that BMW enthusiasts use these terms like they invented codes seem silly and douchie to me.
    I will print out the descriptions above so I can follow some of the posts on BMWs; thanks.

    I don't think BMW or any car company at this point cares about the enthusiasts owner at all. It's all about cheap lease deals and high demand - which BMW has cornered the market in getting people in - I think they will do very well with this new redo as it prob addresses issues with the prev (f30?) car had that the non enthusiast mass lease buyers complained about- and blame you have the ultimate leasing machine.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,238
    I don't think BMW or any car company at this point cares about the enthusiasts owner at all.

    This is most certainly true. Once the enthusiasts build a brand's image over a decade or two, they're of no further value in extending the sales numbers into the mass market.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,412
    You are right that BMW cares about 2 things (like every other automaker), selling as many cars as they can and making as much profit off of those cars. As much as we love certain cars, they have to change. They have to add more safety features. They have to add more luxury goodies. They have to add different wheels. They have to change for the sake of change.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,475
    Absolutely. However, there is a danger when all brands converge into one. Over long periods, regardless of product or service, it is those companies that have something that differentiates them from the crowd that win. Superior services, lowest price, best value (as price/content), best quality (whichever way one defines quality), etc. Prior the pedal fiasco, Toyota was uncontested reliability leader - their cars never had cutting edge equipment, never been safest in the market, or offered best value in terms of price of content. But they delivered expected features on time. When nobody asked for side impact airbags or ABS, they were either unavailable, or never delivered, when those features because standard of service, Toyota did not procrastrinate.

    So after gutting out the steering feedback, what's left there in BMW cars? Good engine and transmission combo with really good mpg, decent build quality, brand cache. But Audi makes nicer interiors, Mercedes makes nicer ride and still has better brand recognition (reportedly Germany is a different story, but in US there is no doubt), Lexus makes better overall quality, Infiniti makes them faster and (now also) sharper cornering (at least G), Acura has superior value in terms of the content.

    BMW does not excell or corner anything in particular as they used to. Yeah, gas mileage... Really, Pay up 5-10 grand more to get extra 3 mpg - that's a great calculus.

    They can cash out their old chips for a while, as they probably have a lot of them. But watch out. There used to be a reason to pony up the money for this expensive piece of metal, because one could argue that nobody else has quite done it they way they do. This claim may not be valid in five or ten years. When chips are spent there is nothing left. Those things don't come quickly and immediately, but when the tides turn, it takes long time to turn them back. Just ask Mazda and Nissan how (NOT) well they did when they try to outcamry the Camry.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

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