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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • speedracer3speedracer3 Posts: 650
    Just a little tidbit. Aside from it's glowing crash ratings here in N. America, the G35 ( Nissan Skyline 350GT) has scored one of the highest safety ratings in Japanese crash tests. It is considered one of the safest cars in Japan. No doubt I'd feel safe in one.

    Here's the link (the 250GT is tested here)

    http://www.nasva.go.jp/assess/html2002e/as125.html
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 31,087
    IMHO, the S40 doesn't compete with the TL.. It seems a class below in size and mission.. I would think the S60 is the TL competitor in Volvo's line..

    I see the competition as...

    A4 1.8
    325i
    9-3
    TSX
    IS300 (sorta)
    Honda Accord EX (depending on trim line)
    Nissan Altima
    Toyota Camry

    The last three are a little larger than the S40, but I'm sure are looked at as viable options as the S40 price climbs over $30K

    regards,
    kyfdx

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "If that makes you feel good about paying a premium for a volvo or bmw then pay away."

    Yes, it does make me feel good.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Posts: 493
    at least everyone feels good whether it's to pay or not to pay...
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "The cars on the line right now have nissan at the height of the industry on just
    about every front including product quality."


    Bull. They've just sent 20 engineers to America to fix quality problems. Nissan also scored low on some recent surveys.

    Nobody said the G35 or FX were rushed to the market, but the 350Z has a cardboard interior if there ever was one in a car. It is downright worse than some GM cars in interior quality.

    "As for safety you know as much as I do about what the G will do...nada so until we KNOW your speculation is as meaninglss as mine."

    Partially correct. I don't know about the G35 past the crash test scores, but I do know who used to and still does place emphasis on safety and it isn't Nissan.

    M
  • chrisbothchrisboth Posts: 493
    Not sure about the american made ones but the japanese made cars seem fine. MAny people pay many many mopre dollars and get some problems. There is Lexus and then there is everyone else. Take look at some other surveys like how much emotion about the brand or car image influenced the decision making. It was just noted that Nissan scored at the top despite some minor and major (crank sensor recall) quality issues. People expect problems from thier cars if they are from mercedes or bmw - its part of the experience like it or not. Not everyone wants a camary so we deal with a rattle or a greasy window. My dealer has fixed my minor annoyances well and I haven't minded the 2-3 little issues since the CAR ROCKS so much.

    AS far as safety ~ your objective statments and cultish faithfulness to marketing aside, unless you can point to engineering or proven technolgy in the supposed superior car from sweden or germany then I don't think the emotion of your willingness to pay a premium for a slower less agile car dont really matter. As for the G, nothing but a stellar safety record so far. Keep on paying the premium my friend. I'll be upgrading the ski boat every time i buy a car with the extra money i save. As for the 350 Z comments? WHATEVER. It's a carerra chaser for 27k. It looks great to many MANY people who buy it in droves and praise it like a religious figure.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "It's a carerra chaser for 27k."

    Not even close.
  • billyperksbillyperks Posts: 449
    "People expect problems from thier cars if they are from mercedes or bmw - its part of the experience like it or not".

    I don't know about you, but when I shell out 30+K, I dont even want to hear the word PROBLEMS for the next seven or so years.

    All I want to do is regular maintenance service.

    Good luck with the expected problems with the G.
  • peterismepeterisme Posts: 68
    I made a bet with my wife: if I got all A last year in my B school study, I will go a head to buy the car I want. Now I won, but I have trouble picking out the best Sport Sedan.

    Since I am in B school, I know I should ask expert before the decision. You guys should be the ones who provide such expertise.

    My budget: <=$35K

    Priority: 1. Safety; 2. Reliability, 3. Performance (yeah, I only have one life, and I don&#146;t want to spend too much of my life at the service department at dealer&#146;s)

    Constrain: No Japanese Cars (Just a personal preference, I know They make good cars, )

    Can you guys give me some suggestion?

    Thanks a lot!

    Peter
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    the only way to do this is not to own a car.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    <=35k....Priority: 1. Safety; 2. Reliability, 3. Performance...No Japanese Cars

    Just forget this market then. There's no such thing as a reliable european car. BMW, MB and Audi are all lousy for reliability. Volvo and Saab are a joke. What's that leave? Jag's simply a Ford Mondeo.

    Why not try the TL, G35, TSX and IS300? Test driving a car doesn't mean you must buy it. Heck, I loathe Caddy yet I still gave their crummy CTS a test drive. I had to accept I could be wrong and really dig it. I didnt want to buy a BMW (still think they're overpriced) but ended up with one after a test drive of a 330i 6 speed.

    Try everything, then start knocking off choices. Dismissing the car before driving it is ignorant at best. At the worst you're keeping yourself from finding that car that's epiphanous for you.

    And don't dismiss non-luxury makes because they're not fitted with a stupid badge. A WRX, STi or a Mazda6, RX-8, etc are all really, really fun cars. And they're far better made than the stuff from europe.
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Posts: 650
    Peter,

    At or around $35K and not Japanese. Here's how they'd stack up in my book:

    1) Audi A4 1.8T
    2) BMW 325i
    3) Mercedes C230 Kompressor.
    4) Saab 93
  • chrisbothchrisboth Posts: 493
    "It's a carerra chaser for 27k."

    Not even close.

    Yeah 13.6 in the quarter mag times with nearly the handling - Not even close eh. It's been mentioned many times, the value of the Z in context of the pricier carerra. The carerra is not super car guy. Your wish to liken the Nissan experience as the crappy old clunker maker your sentra was from is not pertinant in Z world. Subjectivity is fine but dont diss the Z for being anything less than it is. A stellar performer bested by few and yes a evo is fast but its still a mitsu sedan box econo crapper.

    "I don't know about you, but when I shell out 30+K, I dont even want to hear the word PROBLEMS "

    People who dont expect problems dont buy BMW or Mercedes. Again I'll take my rattle and my window streak and my awesome performing ride. I dont need the 1 percentile best JD power car that bores me...I need a car that makes me get out of bed in the middle in the night from calling me to drive it. Unless you buy Honda or lexus or buick you accept some inferiority to the perfect trouble free ownership experience. You'll learn that when you spend 80k on a 750 BMW or a XJ that you get even more trouble for your extra money. The G motor will last 250k and the reliability is expected to be stellar. Hapring on this is futile. Nothing from germany would ever come so close on my list of cars that would be pretty easy and cheap to maintian over a 10 year period. 3 series would be a disaster for that long. You expect alot but your expectations are misaligned with what you'll be getting if you climb the social car ladder...unless you want to be a lexus driver all your life. Since when did infiniti become not so reliable anyway? When I say problems I should say annoyances which were few but expected in a first eyar car - mine is an 03...and flawless I might add with 20k.

    Front midships rule the world guys. Ineveitably this will be realized! LOL
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Yeah 13.6 in the quarter mag times with nearly the handling"

    It does not have the handling, however in the hands of an average driver the Z is easier, in the hands of a skilled driver, the Porsche will pass the Z like a milk-truck. Street racing is not the forum to find out if any one car is faster or not.

    BMW reliability is not an oxymoron. BMW is tops in a number of different ownership surveys. I will admit in defects/100 Lexus rules, but that doesn't mean BMW is unreliable. Nor does it mean every Lexus just goes. Nor do I find friends who have Acuras, Hondas, Infinitis or Nissans, have cars that are more reliable than mine. (Yes, I know, in my world recommendations and anectdotal evidence are important)
  • chrisbothchrisboth Posts: 493
    "Street racing is not the forum to find out if any one car is faster or not."

    I thought we were mag racing...also yes a porsche in the hands of the skilled driver is a dream and driving bliss can't get much better...also a skilled 6speed z driver may outdrive an OK carerra driver. I would expect an 80K machine to own a Z - but that will only happen with a great driver and an extra 50k! These cars are not THAT comparable but yet on the track they become often comapred..go figure. You may not like it but it's the baddest 27k car out there IMO. You can get a loaded mazda 6 for more than that!
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Posts: 650
    My pick for luxury Japanese sport sedans is the Infiniti G35.

    Second on my list is the Acura TSX. I liked the TSX ALMOST as much as the A4. Some would argue that probably the TL deserves the sport better than the TSX, but I have not driven the new TL so I cannot comment.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    The Z is not an entry level luxo anything. You are comparing two different cars, that is why talking about WRX is not far fetched. Yes for the price it can't be beat, except by an WRX, which I do believe has at least 2 more seats, but that is where it ends.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Posts: 493
    Looks like Nissan is right at the industry average and Infiniti is #3 again. Who and why were we talking smack about Infiniti being a problem car???? THis out today from JD power

    Brand Problems/100 vehicles
    Lexus 162
    Buick 187
    Infiniti 189
    Lincoln 194
    Cadillac 196
    Honda 209
    Acura 212
    Toyota 216
    Mercury 224
    Porsche 240
    Chevrolet 262
    GMC 262
    BMW 264
    Saab 265
    Saturn 267
    INDUSTRY AVG. 269
    Ford 276
    Nissan 280
    Chrysler 285
    Mazda 285
    Subaru 288
    Plymouth 289
    Audi 295
    Pontiac 297
    Dodge 298
    Jaguar 310
    Jeep 314
    Oldsmobile 314
    Mercedes-Benz 327
    Mitsubishi 327
    Volvo 346
    Suzuki 365
    Hyundai 375
    Volkswagen 386
    Isuzu 393
    Daewoo 411
    Kia 432
    Land Rover 472
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    You ain't gonna convince kd with such stats. He has stated repeatedly that he'll take anecdotal evidence (namely, that his own car is relatively problem free, while he knows a lot of Japanese cars with problems) over such surveys/data.

    Save your breath (in this case typing, or copy-pasting).
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    BMW is tops in a number of different ownership surveys. I will admit in defects/100 Lexus rules, but that doesn't mean BMW is unreliable. Nor does it mean every Lexus just goes. Nor do I find friends who have Acuras, Hondas, Infinitis or Nissans, have cars that are more reliable than mine. (Yes, I know, in my world recommendations and anectdotal evidence are important)


    Refuse to admit reality. Reliability frequency and repair costs on German cars = daunting. I've owned two german cars in the past 3 years. The VW was a nightmare. The BMW needs to go in again as my sunroof is rattling something terrible. Already had the parking brake replaced. The car is only 13 months old. At this rate that's a new problem every 6 months. Not a good sign for BMW.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Refuse to admit reality."

    What reality are you talking about? The reality that Japanese products are less reliable than the surveys say and German products are more? We've been down here before, you can quote chapter and verse. 'Nuff said.

    edit - according to a post on the Luxury marquees board the latest JD Powers survey is out. Toyota/Lexus/GM/Porsche/BMW - made the top 5. What does is really mean between number 1 and number 5, one more trip to the dealer every two years?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Even if it's one more trip, that's totally unacceptable. When broken down by BRAND, BMW drops to the middle. Because BMW is a small manufacturer their stock rises the moment you combine the brands of manufacturers.

    As a brand, BMW is middle of the road. As we all know, being average is a failing grade.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Even if it's one more trip, that's totally unacceptable"

    I disagree it is what it is. You could get a Lexus and *hope* you are in the category of car owner that Lexus would like you to be in, or you could get a dog. Either way there are never any guarantees.

    Playing the odds in reliability is no different than gambling at Vegas.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "The reality that Japanese products are less reliable than the surveys say and German products are more?"

    This really makes no sense to me. We all know that you like your Bimmer, but COME ON!
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "Playing the odds in reliability is no different than gambling at Vegas."

    Incorrect analogy. The "odds" with each carmaker is different. You have better "odds" with Japanese lux makes than German lux makes.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    "As a brand, BMW is middle of the road."

    Sometimes you have to consider individual models within the brand. The E39 530 is arguably the best sedan that has ever been made. CR called it the best sedan they have ever tested. I'll take it a step further... E39 M5 is the king. Not too middle of the road here. It handles, affords amazing manners as a lux cruiser, and has a Steven Segal reserve of butt kick for when the bad guys get out of line. Awesome vehicle!
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    BMW as a brand is middle of the road. By model, I haven't seen the stats. By make, we all have. In the family of BMWs the last gen 5 may be a smooth operating piece of machinery.

    Strange how KD didn't respond to this part:

    Because BMW is a small manufacturer their stock rises the moment you combine the brands of manufacturers.

    As a brand, BMW is middle of the road. As we all know, being average is a failing grade.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    BMW bashing has become one of my favorite topics lately due to their fashion gambit. Accordingly, I think their sales will continue on a downhill slalom, but I think "middle of the road" as a brand is a little over the top. Curious, which brand or brands do you consider above the middle? Pardon me if you said it and I missed it... it happens toggling between work and the chatter.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Infiniti, Acura and Lexus all score FAR higher for reliability as brands than BMW.

    BMW scored 264 problems per 100 cars. The industry average is 269. You can't be much more middle of the road. Lexus hit in there at 164 or 69 (too lazy to scroll up). Now that's well made.
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Posts: 650
    For those that like anecdotal evidence.

    2 BMWs in my family--they were ALWAYS at the dealer for electrical gremlins.

    3 Lexus cars in the family, the only time they saw a dealer was for scheduled oil changes.

    Bottom line: My anectdotal evidence supports the JD Power study. Lexus cars are built like swiss watches. BMW does not hold a candle to Lexus reliability.
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