Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

18182848687435

Comments

  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    That's what I'm saying. To use as a comparison, EPA estimates are the most reliable source, even though they have their flaws.

    I see posters on forums who claim they get 28-29 mpg on their G35, while others say they get 15-16 mpg. As you said, there are so many things that we have to take into account, like how these cars are being driven, tires, individual car variations, trip computer errors, etc.

    Of course, there is anecdotal evidence that the G35 gets less than EPA and the 330i gets more than EPA, and vice versa.

    The 330i definitely gets better mileage than the G, there is no doubt about that. It just seems that your "real world" generalization is way skewed in the 330i's favor.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The problem with the EPA it is not real world. Even they acknowledge it.

    When I car shop I use the EPA as a relative guide, but I understand my actual mileage might be significantly better, significantly worse or on par with the EPA estimates.

    While I do believe the results are skewed, they are fairly skewed and are more representative of real world results than the EPA estimates.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "i can get employee pricing on a G35...and my next car will either be a G35 sedan or 330i. the cost of a 330i optioned how i would like is not worth the $7000 premium on the sticker. but with Euro delivery, you can save close to $5000 on that same vehicle.

    now i drive 85 miles round trip a day. that coupled with these other 2 factors make the mpg argument in my head a little more interesting. will i really save or do better for myself with a 330i because oin the highway i will get 30mpg and with a G35 i will prolly realistically see 23mpg?

    optioned the way i want with disocunts included

    G35: $ 34,000
    330i: $37,000

    so a $3k difference. will that be worth the mpg?"

    I'm surprised you have to pay $34,000 for a G35 with the employee discount. That sounds like the street price anyone could get for a fully-loaded G35.

    In any case, with a $3000 difference, I'd just get the car you like more.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    I understand that the EPA test is not often real world.

    What I haven't seen any reliable evidence of is, that the G35 consistently gets below EPA, while the 330i consistently gets above EPA.

    In other words, you're saying that the way that the EPA conducts its test somehow favors the G35.

    Again, there are posters all over the forums who say that their G35 gets worse, at, or better than EPA. There are also posters who say that their 330i gets worse, at, or better than EPA.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The people who drive these cars know what it costs to fill-it-up at the pump and what their gas mileage is. I have a very small sample size, but my sample size might be bigger than the EPA's whose sample size is one.

    But I do think the mileage I've postulated probably fits under the bell curve. With thousands of BMWs and Infinitis you or I obviously can't predict the mileage of each and every one. But I believe I'm close to real world figures.
  • minarets1minarets1 Member Posts: 49
    well it is like $33,500...and that is for a MSRP $40,000 G35...fully optioned with NAV, prem C sat radio...everything.
  • andyandy Member Posts: 21
    I agree that anecdotal evidence is not really valuable info. But in certain cases it can be. For instance, we all know that the Prius does not get anywhere near 60mpg in the city based on the VOLUME and % of anecdotal evidence.

    I have read many forums and both the G and the RX-8 get pretty bad mileage anecdotally relative to their EPA estimates. But I haven't really studied the new 3 series. The last one was pretty spot on to the EPA.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Which one would you like to be seen in? There is alot more importance in how you feel than just the initial expense...Tony
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    Gas prices are only going to get higher in the future, so mileage with become more and more an issue. A reason my wife chose the TL was it's good highway mileage, and it's very low emissions. She is somewhat sensitive to enviornmental issues so that's important to her.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    One factor that is significant in my mind is that BMWs (and MBs and VWs and Audis) are built to obtain their best gas mileage at speeds well beyond what we typically drive here in the U.S.A., the EPA and their 49 mph test be damned. When I was picking up my ED 530i I spent the first 1,300 miles or so keeping the car under 100 mph, and during that most critical of break in periods I obtained between 26 and 28 mpg. For the last sprint back into Munich I had the cruise control set at 130 and according to the trip computer I was still getting between 23 and 24 mpg. Geez, my 530i was getting about the same mileage at a buck thirty that a G35 gets at half that speed.

    Now, being one that habitually refutes anecdotal evidence, I must admit that over the last seven years of contributing here in the TownHall I seen literally hundreds of posts by BMW 3-Series and 5-Series drivers claiming mileage well beyond the EPA numbers (and precious few that couldn’t). Once again, in my mind that is significant. In fact, a few months ago in the 5-Series forum, a contributer was complaining that his E39 530i was barely able to make the EPA numbers. The rest of us kept maintaining that there was something wrong with his car, contrary to what his dealer was telling him. I mentioned to him that I was aware that there was at least one round of firmware out of Munich that was, ummm, less than optimal, and suggested that he have his OBC reflashed. Bingo! He immediately started getting mileage more in line with what the rest of us had been telling him he should be experiencing, which by the way was well beyond the EPA numbers.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Which one would you like to be seen in?

    LOL
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Shipo, stop making stuff up. You know BMW owners are prone to over spend, they want to be seen in our blue and white propellor badged cars (with matching beanies) and we all lie about gas mileage. Oops, did I write we? I meant you or they. :D
  • saigonboi21saigonboi21 Member Posts: 150
    well just wanted to say that I just got my 330i and im loving it!!!! and thanks to those that have helped me - blueguydotcom, kydfx (cant remember everyone but thanks)
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    enjoy! Show us pics too. :D
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Congrats, saigonboi21!

    Hey, I moved your last post to our ongoing 3-Series discussion since that's a better place for your question than this comparo - here's the link: saigonboi21, "BMW 3-Series 2006+" #4009, 23 Aug 2005 2:31 am.

    Enjoy your new ride!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Now, being one that habitually refutes anecdotal evidence"

    I too refute anecdotal evidence. To me anecdotal evidence rears it's ugly head in the form of statements like these: "I heard all BMWs unreliable". Or, "I heard the G35s guzzle gas". However, what I hold near and dear is first hand information. Anecdotal evidence is taking a small sample size and making unscientific broad predictions based on that small sample size. We hear can ignore fact that Nielsen predicts the habits of 35million people from 1000 people

    There is a percentage of people who will hit the EPAs number because they drive the car exactly as it was tested. For the rest of us that don't drive as tested our actual mileage will vary + and -.

    So while I'm not forming a scientific conclusion about G35 gas mileage, what I've seen first hand has me wondering if the mileage could more on par other cars in this category.
  • paradigmslugparadigmslug Member Posts: 2
    I have a 2004 G35x (the AWD version). With a commute of 30 miles per way, travelling at about 75mph, I have been avg about 22.5 miles per gallon. I know its not sipping but it is much better than the 13 to 15 mpg reports I have read in the past. But I do concede, that when my commute has been less, say 12 to 15 miles per way, that average has dropped to about 18 mpg. The car seems to really like the long, uniterrupted travel the best, at least from a mpg standpoint.
  • humphryhumphry Member Posts: 4
    This EPA/mpg discussion is really crazy.

    I drive the bedevil out of my G35 coupe almost all the time, spin around corners, shifting all 6 gears up and down like I am playing pacman with it, low gears and hi revs while listening to that sweet sound coming from the exhaust, switching lanes along the highway, enjoying all 280 horses of that sweet torquey V6 engine, while imagining myself from the outside in that sexy looking body style.

    I have no idea how much mpg I get ...heck I dont even know the EPA rating....and I dont even care to check. I know I am not spending as much at the pump as an Escalade or Hummer driver and that is as much as I probably care.

    If gas prices get too high ....really high !...I probably go and get a honda civic or a corrolla...(I like the hybrid Honda V6 too).

    For now I probably will change my G35 coupe only because I get bored easily but I will get another sport coupe and I wouldn't care less about the EPA or the mpg.
  • aaarghaaargh Member Posts: 230
    I like your attitude. :shades:

    But I think you have to admit that you are in the minority. This discussion, while going on too long now, is important to many of us. Maybe not the pissing match between the G35 and BMW spinners, but about the reality of the EPA numbers and how different types of driving effect your overall mileage.

    I'm surprsied nobody has mentiond the great mileage the TL gets with a 270 HP engine (at least on the highway - over 30 mpg.). Yes, I am a TL spinner. ;)
  • toyotaf1fantoyotaf1fan Member Posts: 37
    The Lexus Canada website has fuel consumption for the 250 Manual at 24/37. The 250 Auto is 29/42. The 350 is rated at 26/37 mpg.

    Great mileage, but doesn't it seem odd that a 2.5 liter with a Manual transmission is getting worse mileage than a 3.5 liter auto? One would have to think its a typo.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    The TL is such a great car on so many levels; good gas mileage, very low emissions, great looking inside and out, great sound system, great accelaration etc. :)
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    My god, that can't be right. If it is, Lexus might have found a convert on just that element.

    Don't canadians use kilometers/metric system? anyone confirm this is correct. Seriously, if it's true I'm astounded.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    The entire world uses the metric system. :P
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Not true. Sorry to burst your bubble.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Judging from some of the previous G35 posts, my guess would be in heavy stop and go traffic 19 would be an optimistic figure.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    I should have qualified my statement, almost all of the world uses the metric system. And all of the scientific world uses the metric system. :P
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    At cruising speed 65-85 the car could be geared so the engine spins at low rpms and shuts down two cylinders, I can see getting decent gas mileage. But if you are using all of those horses racing BMWs and attempting to beat anything that moves there is no way gas mileage will be anything short of lousy.

    My next question is: Does the EPA do the testing for Canadian vehicles?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I'm rather blown away at the idea of 37 mpg in a car sporting 300+ HP and no hybrid electrical motors. Seriously, that mileage raises my interest in the IS250/350. Again, that's assuming those numbers reflect american gallons and miles.

    Still no manual, but I'm even more determined to drive it now.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You betcha. That's why I was wondering what the testing procedure was and if the EPA does the testing for our friends north of the border?

    The gas mileage sounds absolutely astounding. But, my guess is when it gets to the US it will be sporting similiar mileage to the Avalon.

    edit - I did some digging and found the following: Check the advisory on page 28, text noted below.

    CAUTION ON USING U.S. FUEL ECONOMY DATA
    U.S. Web sites list fuel economy data in miles per U.S.
    gallon and use different sales data based on the U.S.
    vehicle market. Fuel efficiency ratings in Canada and the
    U.S. are similar but cannot be directly compared.


    http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/transportation/tools/fuel-consumption-guide/pdf/fuel-consumption-gu- - - ide-2005.pdf

    Page 33 lists the 330i manual as 24/39. That says it all. :)
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Canada uses imperial gallons, which is 20% more than the U.S. gallon.

    Most people I know (whether 3 series, TL, GS, G35, Accord V6) get less than EPA, especially in the city. Maybe my friends and relatives are just hard drivers.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    KD, that says it all. ;)
  • albanytimalbanytim Member Posts: 18
    From lexus.ca for the IS350:

    Fuel Consumption - City/Highway L/100km 10.8/7.7
    Fuel Consumption - City/Highway mpg 26/37

    I believe the L/100km figures translate to about 22 American mpg city, 30.5 highway.

    Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    I like the 2006 MB C-class line-up. No more four-bangers. A nice array of V6 engine choices.

    C230: 2.5 V6, 201 hp, $29,975
    C280: 3.0 V6, 228 hp, $33,725
    C350: 3.5 V6, 268 hp, $38,325

    I bet MB changes the designation to C250, C300, and C350 with the next C-class.

    Also, I wouldn't mind seeing the 228 hp 3.0 V6 make its way into the E class (E300) to go up against the 525i.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    Canada USED to use the Imperial gallon, but went metric in the '70s.

    The ratio is 5 Imperial to 6 U.S., because the fluid ounces are slightly different -- U.S. gallon is 4 x 32 fl oz quarts & Imperial is 4 x 40 (different) fl oz quarts.

    All moot, because outside of Liberia & the U.S., gasoline is sold by the litre & fuel mileage is usually expressed in litres/100 km. However, converting isn't exactly rocket science.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    Imperial gallons sounds so royal! I'd rather my car got Imperial mpg than US mpg. :P But you make a good point in explaining the difference.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    What do you think about the latest comparo? The 3 is still on top despite the horsepower advantage of the IS. The Lexus fanatics are "fuming" about this and proclaiming BMW is dead (HP ain't everything and the rags are biased!). The BMW fanatics don't seem to notice. (In additition, it seems to be noted the back seat of the IS 350 is a little cramped, we'll see if Lexus takes the kind of heat BMW did for having a "cramped" back-seat in it's E46 lineup)

    Does the rumored BMW 3.5L twin-turbo future engine change anything?
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    The TL back seats are great! :P

    Additionally, all these cars are fantastics, even the BMW's LOL. :P
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    Comparo's are fun and informative. There is only one way to determine the "best" car: Buy it.

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • dfc3dfc3 Member Posts: 87
    OK, I hope the "roving host" is indulgent with me - since I'm new - and getting the hang of this. I posted this on over on the Mercedes boards (because that's where I started in research) - but after scanning for a while, found all the other boards - and THIS one is where I should have posted. Anyway... looking back, this board has a good balanced sense for these type of questions:

    Right now, I drive a 2004 Volvo S60 T5. I'm trying to decide whether I want to purchase one of the new Mercedes-Benz C-class vehicles to replace it. The new engine/transmission combo for the 2006 C-class line is making me give it serious consideration. I'm trying to find out if there's enough benefit to make the move. I'd welcome all opinions!

    The tough part is that the Volvo S60 T5 is perfectly fine. For some quick comparisons (the first number is the Volvo figure, the second is the 2006 MB C280):

    Cylinders: 5 vs. 6
    HP: 208 vs. 228 (2.5L vs. 3.0L)
    Torque: 236 ft lbs 1500 RPM vs. 221 ft lbs 2700 RPM (the Volvo is turbocharged...)

    I like the Volvo's ride, power, and smoothness. What I don't like is that the S60 is not quite as compact. The turning radius for the S60 is 38.7" (the C280 touts 35.3" - which would be better for me in the area I live). The width of the S60 is 71.4" vs. the C280's 68.0".

    Yet these are minor points - given my car is only 2 years old.

    Thoughts? Opinions? Other facts?

    TIA.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    ..... The 3 is still on top despite the horsepower advantage of the IS. The Lexus fanatics are "fuming" about this and proclaiming BMW is dead (HP ain't everything and the rags are biased!). The BMW fanatics don't seem to notice....

    Really ? There are two fallacies in this post. (1) That Lexus fanatics are *fuming*, and (2) that BMW fanatics don't seem to notice....

    1) Lexus fanatics are NOT fuming, rather we recognize the vast superiority of the IS350 over the 330i. The numbers speak for themselves, or do you want me to post them for ya ? The tester Bimmer couldn't even make it through the test mechanically.... breaking down under its own weight :)

    2) And Bimmer fans are slowly but surely waking up to the new C&D review. Just wait until it is widely available on newstands. I don't think most BMW officianados ever imagined an entry level Lexus to do a 5.1s 0-60, and a 13.7s @ 104mph to the 1/4-mile ??? An e90 cannot even approach these numbers. And that is an auto tranny IS350 going against a 6MT 330i. Just imagine the IS with a 6MT ?????? And the difference b/w these two cars, according to C&D ? 1 pt separating 1st from 2nd !!! That is a virtual tie. Maybe BMW needs to be more concerned that teir tester car proved to be unreliable when faced with its peers.

    WIll be interesting to see how BMW reacts to this new challenge from Lexus. It should be a lotta fun for consumers, eh ?
  • pg48477pg48477 Member Posts: 309
    If you think new LS is a challenge to BMW, let it be so, BMW fans don't think so.

    You need to stay in line next to G35 owners, bragging about HP and 0-60. 20 year olds buy HP and 0-60. If you would know how to drive, I assume you don't according to your post, you would not brag about those numbers. What important is driving dynamics, look at Skidpad and slalom. If I would want a boat with lots of HP, I would go with Charger.

    If anything IS can go against MB, If you ask me, it's another bust for Lexus.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I second what pp said. HP isn't everything BMW is not dead in spite of certain self-proclaimed prognostications to the contrary.

    As a matter of fact they are just warming up, lost the set but will win the match. I think Lexus needs to be concerned that again they may not have gotten *it* right, yet again in spite of hp numbers. BMW has always delivered a one, two punch.

    One point, from a car that has 40 hp less. HP isn't everything.

    I do agree it will be fun for consumers.
  • taxesquiretaxesquire Member Posts: 681
    I haven't driven either car, but your comments (I like the Volvo's ride, power, and smoothness. What I don't like is that the S60 is not quite as compact. The turning radius for the S60 is 38.7" (the C280 touts 35.3" - which would be better for me in the area I live) make me think you should also consider the Volvo S40T.

    It's faster than your S60, which you said is fast enough, but it's size is more similar to the Mercedes. It might be the perfect combo for you. I test drove an S40, and think I would've been happy with it, but it was too small. Also, while your post doesn't discuss luxury features, if you're a luxury-feature kinda guy, the S40 might fall short there, too.

    Don't know if this'll work, but I ran a quick comparison of the S60 S40 & C280 on the edmunds website. Here's the link (again, once I close out, I don't kow if this link will work or not, and you might need to copy & paste the link nto your browser but...)
    http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison;jsessionid=DJh84cTNwJx6TC- FGRdzp1gPGbCBqT8Jq1yz0YhPHfRsZBkDzvtwW!191769469?styleid=100552480&styleid=100557208&style- - - id=100552437&maxvehicles=5&refid=&op=3&tab=features

    Just tried the link - it works (copy & paste, don't click on the 1st part), but you have to re-add the S40.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Let's see if this is clickable: 2006 Volvo S60 2.5T vs. 2006 Mercedes-Benz C-Class C280.

    Okay, it works for me - however YMMV, no promises here! :-D :-D
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Sticking your head in the sand here guys., but I can understand when people don't like to deal with reality.... That's what the shrink will tell you... The IS brings a total package to the table. The new IS350 is sleek, elegantly styled (as opposed to the muted Bangled e90), better interior ergonomics (as opposed to the spartan interior of the e90), better braking (best-in-class, as tested), high quality build (typical Lexus fit and finish), improved chassis (tightened and more rigid), enormous HP/TQ rating for a naturally aspirated V6 motor (51HP/57Ibft of tq higher than the e90), excellent MPG (for a 300+HP-rated car), luxury features out of the wazoo.... (everything u can get in a $65K full-size lux sedan), and priced competitively (based on mag reports) against the e90 that C&D described as "Platinum VISA priced", and you have yourself a car to be worried about.

    Lexus is not worried they did not get it right, just wait until the car hits showrooms before we pronounce hit-or-miss.... Did you read the C&D review yet ? Here is a quote: "Welcome to the most exuberant Lexus ever built" I suggest you take the time to digest the review and you'll see that the 330i did NOT win the comparo on objective stats....

    You gotta ask how the 330i won by 1 pt ? Did you see the numerous mechanical issues that the tester had ? I can understand why you don't want to face that fact and instead claim "HP is not everything", as if the IS is only about HP (see above). Like C&D said, HP is just one thing, "... Lexus has also poured sweat into the steering and suspension..." On your part, gentlemen, feel free to discount the new IS, I am sure BMW execs are not, and true entry lux sport sedan buyers are going to seriously want to jump into a Lexus sedan that can do the amazing things this IS350 can do as tested, knowing they are looking at a car that is well-built, very fast, very safe, and very reliable, with excellent customer service to boot.... :D:D
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,219
    Well... this is the whole argument, right?

    You keep talking about objective criteria, but buying a car is all about subjective criteria..

    Car reviewers get this, even if you don't...

    Not that I'm taking one side or the other... I haven't driven the new IS, yet... I liked the old one a lot more than most people...

    regards,
    kyfdx

    Edmunds Price Checker
    Edmunds Lease Calculator
    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!

    Edmunds Moderator

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    OAC, you gotta ask yourself, how did a slower car that broke down beat out a brand new contender that sprang from the most powerful and financially flush company in the world? How could the company behind such sensational, tactile, insanely great cars as the LS430, Camry and RX330 not beat out a slower, more expensive (most likely), less reliable BMW? How did the IS350 lose?

    A vast automotive conspiracy? Bias?

    To think, the 330i couldn't outrace an IS350 to 60 or the 1/4 mile and it broke down, yet some wacky jouranlists still picked it. Things that make ya go hmmmm.
  • johnny420johnny420 Member Posts: 473
    Bingo! :P
  • potemkinpotemkin Member Posts: 195
    "The IS brings a total package to the table."

    Don't look now, but the "total package" is missing a manual transmission (assuming you're referring to the IS350). As you yourself expressed, "Just imagine the IS with a 6MT." Imagine? I'd rather they actually make one available, but that's just me.

    The IS300 I drove had more HP & "TQ" than the 325i (E46) I bought. Why did I buy the 3? Because "HP isn't everything," and that's a fact. It's not even in my top ten. When I buy a car that fails to pull itself up the steep incline to my parent's house, then I'll consider it 'underpowered'.

    I like the new IS more than most, but without a clutch and H pattern shifter available the 350 isn't even a consideration. If I were looking at purchasing a new car this fall, I'd be looking seriously at the IS250, not the IS350.

    By the way, a V6 is a step backwards over the previous I6.
Sign In or Register to comment.