Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

aaargh

Yes the TL has the ability to open all windows/sunroof from the fob. I find it quite useful for just this reason.

lehrer1

I have been to Germany many times and witnessed how BMW has been taking market from Deimler- Bentz. Years ago MB cars had a special appearance. Not any longer, especially in smaller cars.
I have been twice on assembly and body lines and have seen that the company is ageing. Now came agressive Japanies.
By the way it was funny to see the parking lots at MB: one can see a sea of cars, all MB.

shipo

"By the way it was funny to see the parking lots at MB: one can see a sea of cars, all MB."

I used to work for MB-USA in the mid to late 1990s, and for a while I was helping out on a project in Stuttgart. Due to the fact that I was a consultant I was not allowed to drive a company car "for insurance reasons", so they rented me a BMW instead. Every morning as I pulled into the parking lot I got a serious "Hairy Eyeball" from the other folks. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

jiminthehills

Thanks, guys for the input.

I posed this heat question to some of the engineers at work and one of them told me to take two thermometers to the Acura dealership at 2pm and quickly throw them into the two candidate's passenger seats and let them bake in the closed cars for 20 minutes. Then, open the driver's door of each car and observe the readings as they come down over the next 5-10 minutes. This may be more telling than what I could tell from a subjective "seat-of-the-pants" test.

Not bad advice - I actually may do it!

My concern now (after all this research) is that even after using the techniques to cool the car prior to entering, the Ebony leather will retain heat longer than the Quartz (grey), especially being trapped against my back side while the car is trying to cool on a hot summer day....

Even though the Ebony is beautiful, the day in and day out hassle of the extra heat may drive me nuts after awhile, and the beauty may turn out to really be only skin deep...:).

Thanks, blue, player, and aaargh for your comments - Anthracite is starting to look cooler by the minute.....

shanky

Here it is...
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=10116&page_number=1

tturedraider

I have a suggestion that might give you the best of both worlds.

Tint your windows. I HIGHLY recommend Llumar brand. I have used Llumar for over 20 years and it is excellent. I have never had any problems with hazing or bubbling. Their top tier tint comes with a lifetime warranty.

Choose the top of the line Llumar product and I'm sure you will be pleased. Be sure to choose a "metalized" tint. They have tints now that block virtually all UV rays and have high degrees of heat rejection. You don't even have to get a really dark tint to do the job.

I always use about the second lightest tint and have very good results.

I am a big believer in white cars. I live in the Great state of Texas and you know we have tons of HOT sun! I don't have empirical evidence, but in my experience I have found that even light colored cars absorb significantly more heat than white cars do. Plus, I admit I really like the brightness and cleanness of white. Even though it seems counterintuitive, white actually hides dirt better than any other color.

High quality tinting also protects and preserves your interior.

If you have tinting on your windows and use a reflective sunshade :shades: in your windshield, I'll bet the black interior won't be too bad. btw - leather adjusts temperature much faster and better than vinyl.

my .02, fwiw

also, btw - don't get the tint done by your dealer. They'll charge you at least twice as much. Find a good Llumar dealer and let them do the installation. That's what your dealer would do and then double the price to you.

ggesq

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't a "metalized" tint make it more difficult for the Navi (assuming you have one) to function properly?

tturedraider

I don't really think so. Most navi systems now have an antenna on the roof.

Though, if your only radio antenna is in the back glass, I think it can adversely affect reception.

ggesq

Thanks for the email. Makes sense in regards to the Navi. However, just a quick FYI, Acura actually recommends not tinting the windows on the TL.

dshahs

why does acura not recommend tinting?

tturedraider

sorry....kinda corny, I know.

Acura would have to give me an exceptionally good reason not to tint. I have tinted all my cars since 1982 and never had any problems.

I know lots of the car makers are using so called "green" glass, but, imo, it doesn't do the job. Personally, I think high quality tint looks nice. But, without question, it significantly (even dramatically) reduces heat intrusion.

mnrep2

On the G35 the Navi also has no external antenna. Tinting may effect reception for the GPS.

sdiver68

I'm a Top 10 Expert/Pro licensed motorcycle road racer. I've been through the kink at Road America with one knee on the ground at 130mph, the only thing between me and a stone retaining wall being 2 quarter sized contact patches and a set of Vanson leathers. I've broken my neck and shattered an arm only to return the following year to race again. I race vehicles capable of 10 second 1/4 miles and 190mpg top speeds that go 4 through a turn within inches of each other, again with only a helmet and leathers as protection.

My M45 Sport has an automatic transmission. From the attitudes some have on this board, I guess that makes me a wussy, and my car an incapable pedestrain transporter.

blueguydotcom

sdiver, so you enjoy driving a car with an automatic. To each his own.

merc1

Sounds like you have an exciting time racing motorcycles. I've always admired motorcycle racers because nothing looks more fun and dangerous! I can understand why you'd want a car with an automatice, you've probably had enough of shifting gears yourself.

M

merc1

I haven't read the IS350 board lately so I don't know if you test drove the IS350 yet? If so what did you think and is it on your list?

M

kyfdx

Here

and, continued...

gordonwd

My M45 Sport has an automatic transmission. From the attitudes some have on this board, I guess that makes me a wussy, and my car an incapable pedestrain transporter.

Well, I say if the shoe fits...

I've also raced motorcycles, but strictly on an amateur basis (you're probably familiar with Grattan?). But anyway, the days of manual transmissions as we know them might be slowly coming to an end. With the technology in BMW's SMG or, even trickier, Audi's DSG gearboxes. the performance of these cars with 7 or more gears and a direct mechanical connection (no torque converter) with millisecond-level shift times will make manual-clutch cars slower and clunkier to drive.

Manual gearboxes will be around for a long time yet, but will be relegated to a "vintage" role, driven only by middle-aged geezers. Hey, I've been driving mostly stick shifts for over 40 years now, but even I can see the handwriting on the wall.

dave330i

"Manual gearboxes will be around for a long time yet, but will be relegated to a "vintage" role, driven only by middle-aged geezers."

I'll be 1 of the middled-aged geezers that'll refuse to give up the 3rd pedal.

shipo

Hmmm, my eleven year old son and my eight year old daughter cannot wait to learn how to drive a stick shift. I suppose that would make them teenage geezers that'll refuse to give up the third pedal once they are old enough to learn. Speaking of old enough, I'm thinking that a large empty parking lot, fifteen years of age and Dad in the right seat sounds old enough to me. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

bdr127

Manual gearboxes will be around for a long time yet, but will be relegated to a "vintage" role, driven only by middle-aged geezers. Hey, I've been driving mostly stick shifts for over 40 years now, but even I can see the handwriting on the wall.

Hmm... people have been saying that for the last 50 years.....

potemkin

I'm Spartacus! No, I'm Spartacus!

I too will be one of those geezers with a traditional three pedal configuration.

By the way: To my knowledge, no one here ever used (or implied) the word 'wussy' (or anything similar to it) in reference to people who prefer automatics. Please refrain from making straw-man arguments in the future.

sdiver68

...ok:

"Is there such a thing as an automatic-only true performance sedan? Not in my book. Certainly not in Europe or Asia. Only in America is such an oxymoron possible. Sad."

"But any car that truly holds itself out as a performance sedan NEEDS at least the option of a manual tranny. Manuals are always faster than automatics and they are almost always the choice of the enthusiast driver."

"Excitement and slushbox don't seem to be compatible."

"No one should drive an automatic without a doctor's excuse"

"Buying an automatic in a sports sedan - it's like forcing Jessica Alba to wear a sackcloth all the time."

This "strawman" has a backbone. Good thing you qualified your statement with "to my knowledge".

blueguydotcom

And in not one of those statements did anyone use a derogatory term for drivers of automatics.

Straw man still exists.

lehrer1

All Europe drives cars with manual transmission. I think automatic is against the spirit of BMW 3 series. I am 70 and I have 06 325i with manual
Lehrer1

bplayer

Manuals are always faster than automatics and they are almost always the choice of the enthusiast driver.

Always is a very hard statement. Consider the F1 cars, no true gearstick and third pedal. For them paddle shifters are faster. That technology is trickling down to commercial vehicles. I will agree that the enthusiast may always prefer traditional manuals, assuming that they are still offered.

sdiver68

LOL, whatever.

blueguydotcom

No it's not "lol whatever". You made an unfounded accusation (insulting too) and when called out on it you posted a bunch of quotes that do not in any way back up the assertion someone here called automatic drivers "wussies".

Your claim is disingenuous at best.

dave330i

"Always is a very hard statement. Consider the F1 cars, no true gearstick and third pedal. For them paddle shifters are faster. That technology is trickling down to commercial vehicles. I will agree that the enthusiast may always prefer traditional manuals, assuming that they are still offered."

Paddle shifters (F1 style or DSG) are still manual (i.e. no torque converter), so the statement about manual being faster than automatic is still true.

victord1

Paddle shifters (F1 style or DSG) are still manual (i.e. no torque converter), so the statement about manual being faster than automatic is still true.

Do the F1 and DSG paddle shifters have the third pedal? Because if they do they're not called manual, at least according to some of the enthusiasts on this board. :P

dewey

Hmmm, my eleven year old son and my eight year old daughter cannot wait to learn how to drive a stick shift

Shipo,

I myself will be contributing to posterity. I am educating my two children(4 and 7 years old) on the virtues of manual. I am crossing my fingers that by the time they are teens they will be manual enthusiasts. This is one of my most important goals for their education (other than the 3 Rs)

dave330i

"Do the F1 and DSG paddle shifters have the third pedal? Because if they do they're not called manual, at least according to some of the enthusiasts on this board."

They have a clutch, so they are manuals. Do I want that type of manual? No. I prefer ones with a 3rd pedal.

potemkin

"Do the F1 and DSG paddle shifters have the third pedal? Because if they don't(sic) they're not called manual, at least according to some of the enthusiasts on this board. "

True. I, and many others, use the term "manual" to refer to a traditional transmission using a clutch pedal and "H" pattern shifter requiring input from the driver. Consider it 'shorthand'. Also, when I refer to an "automatic" I'm referring to cars equipped with torque converters and gearboxes that don't require input from the driver (Yes, that includes you, Steptronic!)

Just because F1 & DSG type transmissions don't have the third pedals doesn't make them automatics. I'm not sure how the DSG functions, but I know that F1 cars won't change gears without the driver "flipping" the little paddle. So they're definitely NOT automatics. Sometime in the future we'll have to come up with a new name for these 'hybrids', but that's a discussion for another topic.

The third pedal is dead. Long live the third pedal!

designman

They have a clutch, so they are manuals.

Just because F1 & DSG type transmissions don't have the third pedals doesn't make them automatics.

It's an automatic clutch; this makes them automatics. Call it a semi-automatic or whatever you want, but it's still an automatic and nothing like a true manual transmission where the driver is an actual part of the drive train.

dewey

Suffice to say, this extremely well qualified expert feels the whole manual over automatics performance superiority complex

It's a question of preferences! Has nothing to do with qulifications or superiority!

blueguydotcom

Here's a good breakdown on how the DSG works:

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/031119.htm

Inside the computer controlled gearbox there are four shafts: two input shafts and two output shafts. The input shafts are concentric, with one shaft passing through the centre of the other hollow input shaft. There are two multi-plate clutch packs similar to those found in automatic transmissions. Each clutch pack connects one of the input shafts to the engine, so depending upon which is applied, either one of the two input shafts can transfer power. An oil pump at the rear of the gearbox supplies hydraulic pressure for the clutches.

The speed gears are divided between the two output shafts. First, third, fifth and reverse gear are on one output shaft while second, fourth and sixth gears are on the other shaft. Synchronisers are moved by the computer to lock each of the speed gears to their output shaft as required. Each output shaft has a pinion gear that drives the differential.

When the driver places the shift lever in drive, First gear is engaged inside the transmission, but the clutch doesn't engage until the driver steps on the gas. Because the clutch is running in oil, it can slip without burning up, allowing the car to creep along in first gear just as an automatic would. Step harder on the gas and the clutch is fully applied. A neat feature of the control system allows the driver to step on the gas and brake at the same time. Audi calls it Launch Control and it allows F1-type starts. In Sport mode with both pedals pressed, the engine revs to 3200 rpm. Release the brake and the car launches in drag strip fashion.

With the transmission engaged in first gear, the computer locks second gear to the other output shaft, but the input shaft clutch for that gear is not engaged. When it is time to shift, the computer releases the clutch for the first gear input and engages the clutch for the second gear input. In preparation for the next shift, the computer now shifts from first to third gear but leaves its clutch disengaged until the shift is requested. As the car's speed increases, the computer continues to pre-select the next gear so all it has to do is switch clutches. There is no grinding, no delays, and no shock.

By monitoring driving style, the computer predicts whether the driver will request an upshift or downshift next so it can pre-select the correct gear. It is possible to fool the computer by driving erratically, but even if the wrong gear is pre-selected it only takes a fraction of a second for it to catch up. This transmission shifts fast, with shift times in the .03 to .04 second range. Even an excellent driver has trouble matching that consistently, and this transmission can do it all day long.

dave330i

"It's an automatic clutch; this makes them automatics. Call it a semi-automatic or whatever you want, but it's still an automatic and nothing like a true manual transmission where the driver is an actual part of the drive train."

If you're definition of automatic is computer controled clutch, then SMG, DSG, etc are automatics.

You're the first I know of who defines automatic that way, since majority of people & most automotive mags define automatic as having a torque converter and manual as having a clutch.

pat

Folks, this is a matter about which everyone is entitled to choose. The personal confrontations going on here are inappropriate - you like what you like - allow others the same freedom.

potemkin

Thanks, blueguy. Fascinating article. I'll have to look into driving one soon.

laurasdada

"Manuals are always faster than automatics and they are almost always the choice of the enthusiast driver."

Cool! My manny tranny Hyundai Accent is faster than an automatic Corvette! I'm headin' out to blow some high-priced doors off!

As you were.

blueguydotcom

I dug everything about the DSG but the weird sensation of the car going into neutral a moment before you pull to a stop. Your brain screams "There's no clutch pedal and I'm coasting...danger, danger, danger!"

Okay, maybe only my brain screams that in between woefully singing Cyndi Lauper songs in Barry Gibb's voice. Oh how I long for the days I imagined Kathie Lee Gifford and R. Lee Ermey singing Marine Corps marching duets. Darn Xanax.

potemkin

I have similar panic attacks driving regular automatics.

Xanax is okay, but it wasn't helping enough, so I switched to heroin. Things are much better now.

shipo

Errr, I fall into that category as well. To my way of thinking, if the car only has two pedals and can shift for itself, it's an Automatic. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

potemkin

What if it has two pedals but you have to shift for it?

I'm having trouble deciding which catagory that would belong to. Or whether or not it should have it's own catagory.

shipo

"What if it has two pedals but you have to shift for it?"

In my mind at least, that's easy. It's a Semi-Automatic. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

designman

Perhaps there is problem with the general perception of transmission genre. The term “Sequential Manual” is somewhat of a misnomer, only half accurate hence misleading.

Both GEAR SELECTION and TORQUE CONVERSION can be automated. The major difference between the true manual transmission and all others—conventional Automatic, Sequential Gearbox and CVT—is that with the true manual transmission, the human being is not only the shifter, HE IS ALSO THE TORQUE CONVERTER BY WAY OF THE CLUTCH PEDAL. He is an integral part of the transmission mechanism. It is the only type of transmission where torque conversion is not achieved automatically.

Perhaps another problem with perception is the term “torque converter”. Although it is a specific part in the automatic transmission, torque conversion happens in all types of transmissions, but is not commonly associated with any type of transmission except the “Automatic”.

Now to further convolute this mess, we must realize that the transmission itself—any transmission—is a torque converter. The part known as the “torque converter” is a transmission within a transmission. It may sound confusing but this may be because there are snags in the naming conventions to begin with.

Anyway, the bottom line of this rant is that with the manual transmission and only the manual transmission…

human being = torque converter.

shipo

Oooooh, I like the way you think. Human being = Torque converter. Hey! I resemble that remark! ;-)

Best Regards
Shipo

designman

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Indeed, your reputation precedes you. If anyone is Mr. MT on Edmunds, yooda man, with deference to Blueguy also. Although he has been sniffing out that IS350, so I don’t know.

;-)

stickguy

Hey, what about me? I even have the name copywrited!

gordonwd

In any case, I may have to give up on my "true manual gearbox" car, as the other day I almost had an accident, spilling my Starbucks Latte Grande in my lap while trying to dial my cell phone and having to shift gears at the same time.

Actually, on a related topic, I almost had a head-on collision the other day on a bike path of all places, when a teenage girl coming the other way didn't see me because she was dialing her cell phone while riding her bicycle :mad: .