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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    flash11,

    Well said....I gotta laugh my butt off to the BMW lovers that say the new G35's seats are to narrow or the interior is feminine. :D BMW, finally delivers a car that lives up to the hype in the 335i. So now you have BMW fans coming out of the wood work to brag that they have a competitive sedan. The funny thing is they want to set the boundaries on price, size, and competition. We call it stacking the deck where I come from. If that's what it takes to win or be considered the best, I personally couldn't hold my head high.

    Rocky
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Well a $23K Acura TSX vs a $39K BMW 335i is then 2 different classes of cars also.

    There is no such thing as a 23k TSX. The TSX starts at 28,090 - acura.com.

    Honestly, stop making things up.
  • robbiegrobbieg Member Posts: 346
    Am I the only one who thinks the interior of the MKZ is awful? Admittedly, I haven't sat in one but from pictures the center of the dash looks terrible. For me the benchmark of cars interior is an Audi.

    Also, does anyone else feel that a Lincoln is less prestigious than a BMW or Lexus?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Also, does anyone else feel that a Lincoln is less prestigious than a BMW or Lexus?

    Cars are either passable (Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus, VW/Audi, BMW, Nissan/infiniti, Mazda, Subaru, Hyundai) or on the fringe:

    GM products
    Mopar products
    Ford products
    Suzuki
    Mitsu
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I'm pulling $53,745 as built if I was to buy one

    http://www.bmwusa.com/byo/byohome.htm?Acode=XAB70BMC312A0

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    What's freaken matter, my point was the TSX, and the 335i have a significant gap in price.

    Rocky
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Test drove the '06 G35 coupe and felt the same cramped feel. My 11 yr. old daughter was in the back seat and she had to hunch down to prevent her head from touching the rear glass!

    Also, experienced great handling but the wind noise and seat-of-the-pants feel was not solid at all.

    Real fast, however.

    Regards,
    OW
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    $46,615

    That's still pretty stripped down. Hell you don't even get heated seats :D

    Rocky
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Am I the only one who thinks the interior of the MKZ is awful?

    I wouldn't say the the MKZ interior is "awful" but it's definitly the worst in it's class.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    rocklee,

    The CTS-V is a great car for a high performance offering from the one of the big 3. I have huge doubts about long-term wear and tear costs vs. comparable high-performance models from Japan and Germany.

    It's in the parts bin quality and engineering. Nice car but let's compare all aspects of the experience to own.

    Regards,
    OW
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    Classic case of "beauty being in the eye..."

    IMHO, I believe the exterior and interior of the MKZ is awful.

    Again, IMHO, I believe that along with Audi the IS & the TL have the most visually aesthetic interiors.

    There is a certain cool factor telling someone you own a BMW or Lexus vs. a Lincoln so yes IMHO it is less prestigious.

    Just my .02 ;)
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    The TSX and the BMW 5, 6 & 7 series also has a significant gap in price.

    However, NONE of the above are listed at the top of this forum = irrelevant.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Hell you don't even get heated seats

    Can we drop the heated seats, please? Rocky, if you are so obsess with the gadgets and 0-60 performance your ideal car should be the ES350 and TL. Maybe you haven't aware that there are people whom think that the overall package of a car (i.e. performance, handling, comfort and style) is more important than the straight line performance and your beloved heated seats.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Manual transmission as standard equipment
    Suspension tuning with an emphasis on handling over ride quality
    Driver-oriented interior
    Smaller size - ideally a compact but that's getting tougher to find.
    RWD preferable, with FWD as passable and AWD if one really must.

    I would add:
    Price range between 30-45k
    No "supped up" cars like the M, AMG, V, S (4,6 or 8) or R
    220hp +
    Luxury nameplate
    Size- should fit 4 adults comfortably (and yes you can fit 2 adults in the backseat of a 3er or IS)
    *****
    I think this is pretty close, though I would alter the price-range to 25-35K after rebates/incentives. Entry-level sedans are in this range, IMO.

    My list:
    - Manual gearbox available. No exceptions.
    - 6 cylinder engine or at least a turbo/supercharged 4
    - Suspension that's sporty. Not a racecar, but better and stiffer than a Camry or Buick.
    - Not a M3 or a CTS-V or anything silly(that's mainstream performance - not entry-level).
    - Seats 5 in a pinch. Uuseable for families and as your only transportation.
    - AWD(full-time)/FWD/RWD - all legitimate choices.
    - Luxury doesn't just mean it has leather - it needs traction control, stability control, and so on.
    - Any car, even ones not at the bottom of a maker's lineup can be considered.
    - Size can range from compact to midsize as long as you can fit three kids in the back seat in a pinch.
    - $25-35K properly optioned out and delivered. 2006 models with rebates/incentives are okay.

    P.S. The original post that started this discussion listed the S60R as one of the choices. So get over it - it qualifies.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Ford has outdone itself and deserves a place here

    You nailed it right on the point. With the MKZ Ford has outdone itself but still light years behind the pack. BTW, it's really not that hard for Ford to outdo itself. Especially for the Lincoln brand.

    Let me ask you this, so you have driven the MKZ, fine. What other cars have you driven before? Do you have any experience to get behind the wheel of a 330i/335i? an IS350? a G35 (last gen or current gen)? or a TL? If you have do you mind to share the experience with us so we'll have an idea on how competitive the MKZ is comparing to the other usual suspects.

    Also, what cars have you driven before in your life? Just out of curiosity.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    List the features as I'm guessing you added a lot of junk that has nothing to do with matching the features of the CTS-V.

    I have listed the features because I am telling the truth. You are massaging facts and figures to make a bogus argument.

    335i sedan - 38,700
    Premium package - 2,450
    Sports Package - 1,600
    Navi - 2,100
    Sirius - 595
    Heated front seats - 500
    Total - 46,640

    So what features are you adding that get the price to over 50k? Show us...

    I matched the features of the CTS-V.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    The MKZ, especially with aluminum trim is beautiful. It sure looks better then the Vinyl you get in the $39K Bimmer.
    Ask the bimmer driver where's the heated seats, ventilated seats, navigation, The 14 speaker THX II certified DVD-Audio surround sound, hell for $2K more the MKZ driver can opt for AWD, and own a all weather car fully loaded car and be still $2K under the bargain basement 335i. :P He then can take the money he saved since he won't pay retail like the bimmer driver and buy himself some aftermarket equipment and really put the spankin' to the the 335i driver. :shades:

    Sorry I had too.... :blush:

    Rocky
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    The flavor of this board is best represented in posts louiswei, "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans" #6852, 29 Nov 2006 7:42 am (the entry level list) and ggesq, "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans" #6873, 29 Nov 2006 8:48 am. And it is always a good idea to go back to the first post to see what the creator intended: cybersol, "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans" #1, 23 Mar 2002 11:04 am.

    You folks can continue to refine louiswei's and ggesq's suggestions, but in my opinion they do provide the basic framework.

    Lincoln is not a luxury brand and doesn't belong here.

    The CTS-V does not belong here, but perhaps it should be included in the Luxury Performance Sedans discussion.

    The topic header is controlled by the way Edmunds sets up categories. There is a separate M3 category, so it would be listed if it were included.

    Rocky, if you (or anyone else) wants to set up a CTS-V comparo with any other car or cars, please feel free to do so. But let's drop it from this one.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Plekto's post also makes good points plekto, "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans" #6896, 29 Nov 2006 10:13 am. I was composing my message when it was posted. (You guys posted like 8 messages in the time it took me to put that post together!! :D )
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    You have to add features to make the 335i livable If i wanted a fast basic car I'd buy me a Damn Mustang. I thought we were talking about luxury cars not some bargain basement stripped rental like you price the 335i to justify that stupid and unrealistic $39K MSRP.

    Rocky
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    flash11,

    I personally do not have a problem with the MKZ comparo on this board but do not make the rules.

    Just remember, if you compare cars like CTS and MKZ, you need to drive them all and consider other factors like resale value. As always, it's a personal choice but the feedback is always good from all sides, IMO.

    Regards,
    OW
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Rocky, the 3-series, however configured, is part of this discussion.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Rocky,

    I gave the 335i the packages most people opt for:

    Premium
    Sports

    I did not pick the automatic as the CTS-V doesn't have one.
    Navi is a random item that is not common on BMWs or 3 series cars. Cold Weather appears on some cars. Sirius too.

    The options you rarely see on a 3 series:

    Active Steering
    Laser Cruise

    My guess is, you're adding those items to claim the price is over 50k.

    As BMW allows buyers the ability to order the car with exact options (this is common for BMW...again ask around and ask dealers), there is nothing low-rent or unrealistic about a 335i with premium, sport, navi, sirius, seat heaters. In fact as I've purchased two BMWs in the past 4 years and helped 2 others do the same, I feel pretty comfortable saying nobody blinks at a BMW dealer if you walk in and order just the 3 with a manual and sport package. They know the buyer they're dealing with - an enthusiast.

    So once, more, please show me the exact features you're putting on a 335i sedan to make its price hit almost 54k.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Lincoln is not a luxury brand and doesn't belong here.

    WOW, Lincoln is not a Luxury brand ? :surprise: If Lincoln, isn't a luxury brand then what the heck is BMW ?

    I'm in a state of shock !!!!

    The CTS-V does not belong here, but perhaps it should be included in the Luxury Performance Sedans discussion.

    That is where the STS-V belongs but whatever.

    Rocky, if you (or anyone else) wants to set up a CTS-V comparo with any other car or cars, please feel free to do so. But let's drop it from this one.

    Fine, I'll let the BMW enthusiasts have their little BMW only allowed forum. I'll just leave..... :sick:

    Rocky
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    "P.S. The original post that started this discussion listed the S60R as one of the choices. So get over it - it qualifies."

    You make a compelling argument for the S60 R. At that price point- it's appealing for someone wanting a 300hp AWD sedan mated w/ a 6spd tranny.

    However, when I looked back at the first post- it mentioned the S60 T5 not the R. Nonetheless, I don't believe the "R" should be compared here. Rather it should be compared with its other alphabetical counterparts like the M, AMG, S, V....
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,931
    Manual transmission as standard equipment
    Suspension tuning with an emphasis on handling over ride quality
    Driver-oriented interior
    Smaller size - ideally a compact but that's getting tougher to find.
    RWD preferable, with FWD as passable and AWD if one really must.

    I would add:
    Price range between 30-45k
    No "supped up" cars like the M, AMG, V, S (4,6 or 8) or R
    220hp +
    Luxury nameplate
    Size- should fit 4 adults comfortably (and yes you can fit 2 adults in the backseat of a 3er or IS)

    Ok. Now we are finally getting somewhere. Getting closer, anyway.

    My only problem here is that the R fits the pricerange, so I think it qualifies. I would not exclude any special supped up model as long as it fits the price requirement.

    One small amendment, though. I think up to $40k should be plenty for "entry-level." And I'm talking MSRP! I hate when people start with the "well, with the $10k rebate and my special secret friend's discount ..." Uh-uh. There is only one verifiable price and that's the MSRP.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    For the record- I drive a TL. :blush:
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,931
    Lincoln is not a luxury brand and doesn't belong here.

    I gotta agree with Rock here. This is total news to me.

    My argument would be that Lincoln no longer makes sports sedans (RIP Lincoln LS).

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Lincoln, like Caddy, seems to be more of an also-ran company. They had a name for themselves during the baby boomer years but mostly they just embrace that older crowd with white hair.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,931
    Unfortunately, this is true. And they came SO CLOSE with the LS. And now they've taken a huge step backwards. UGh!

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Usually, the term "luxury brand" refers to a brand that produces vehicles in the 7-Series, S-Class, A8, etc. class. And we're talking about younger brothers of those kind of parents in this discussion.

    But I'm willing to be overruled on this if the majority of you agree. From what I've seen in the last few days, most of you don't think the MKZ belongs here, even if it is for a different reason.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Yes, Lincoln is a luxury brand, but no, the MKZ doesn't belong here, for a variety or reasons...
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    As you can see from the list at the top and from the lists others are compiling, there is no way this is a "BMW only allowed" forum.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,931
    Well, its definitely a luxury brand (i'd have to disagree with your definition, too, since Acura, Infiniti, Volvo, nor Saab make vehicles in the class you are describing) ... but, yeah, I'd exclude it for performance reasons ... that is until they show me something spectacular with the new engine and offer some sort of sport suspension package .. which will never happen.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The T5 would also qualify - though it doesn't have quite as nice tires and suspension, plus is a lower pressure turbo than in the R.(still over 250HP).

    It's way under $30K, or abot 30K fully loaded. And yes, nationwide factory incentives are acceptable. If BMW started to offer 5-10K off of their 2006 335i series, I'd have no problem including it.

    I'll add one more to my list:
    - "mainstream" preformance cars will be considered if they meet the price-point of the entry-level models.

    A lot of people buy cars at the end of the yearly cycle to take advantage of these offers, afterall.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    To me, if a manufacturer's top of the line sedan MSRP's under $50k, I don't see how that manufacturer could be considered a luxury brand. But I'll shut up now about it. Honest. :P
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    "The T5 would also qualify - though it doesn't have quite as nice tires and suspension,"-
    yup- I agree.

    If BMW started to offer 5-10K off of their 2006 335i series, I'd have no problem including it."

    Sorry buddy- the 3er is not leaving this class anytime soon.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    So you have the 328. Deal with it.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Okay, sorry "domestic brands not allowed forum" :sick: WOW, I also didn't know the guidlines for being allowed in the entry-lux category one had to have a older brother with a mega dollar MSRP ?.... very interesting :surprise:

    Rocky
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    Are you referring to me? If so- reread post #6909.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Uh...correct me if I am wrong, isn't Cadillac a "domestic" brand?
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    Last time I checked the CTS was domestic?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    It is and as you've seen it's not allowed because the majority in this forum are import biased and have set the guidlines.

    later,

    Rocky
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Plekto,

    If BMW started to offer 5-10K off of their 2006 335i series, I'd have no problem including it.

    If you're really interested in the 335i, this is an aside, I suggest you drive one and then visit the ED forum. You can get one for about 5.5-6k off MSRP. Yes, I realize this involves a flight and a trip to Europe but some of us work it all together to get a vacation and a car.

    I did ED in 2006 with my 330i and unless something blows me away by december of 2007, I'll probably order a 335i for pickup in January/February of 08. The GTI and Mazdaspeed3 still call to my frugal side but my indulgent side (and girlfriend) encourage me to follow the fun.

    Anyway, my last ED trip involved flying to Munich and then driving through Germany, Austria, Switzerland and France. I probably spent over $2500 total over 2 weeks. So did I really save much on my car? I look at it this way, I got a fantastic experience, a great vaction and a new car all rolled into one. I was going to take a vacation anyway...I happened to pick up a car while on it. ;)

    In 2008, our flight will be free - frequent flyer miles - and we may spend only a week in Europe this time but we're still going to have some fun while picking up a new car. Plus the thrill of driving your car on the autobahn at 140+ mph is not to be missed. Wow.

    I realize not everyone wants to do this. But if you really, really dig the car, it's quite easy to knock over 5k off that sticker and have an automotive adventure unlike anything most people will ever experience.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,931
    no sulking allowed. ;)

    The CTS is in, the CTSV is not because it exceeds the price requirements.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,931
    The Signature L TownCar is just over $50k. ;b

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,931
    And yes, nationwide factory incentives are acceptable.

    See ... I don't know about this. You start walking in muddy waters when you introduce these concepts. What happens with Rock's CTSV gets a $10k discount and $3k more off for employee pricing or some such silly thing? Then we've got to redefine those included all over again. MSRP is safe, reliable, and somewhat consistent.

    Its one thing to include it when talking about the cars, but to include it when judging what does and does not belong is a mistake, IMHO. The 335i, for instance, doesn't need a pricing excuse. It starts under $40k, so it qualifies without discounting.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well the 328 should be in and the 335i should be out because it's base price of $39K is thousands higher than the competition. Again I realize this is a no domestics allowed forum and certain models get a free pass. :P

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    With my "GMS" GM employee discount I can knock off about $6-7K off the MSRP putting me at $47-48K. Give me another $2K in rebates and I'm sitting at $45-$46K :P

    Rocky

    What if I buy one at the end of the year in Dallas, at a fire sale and save $10-13K ? :P
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Okay then let's remove the 350 as well. :sick Actually if you actually read what Pat posted, this forum is meant for vehicles that are the younger brothers of their more luxurious siblings. Lincoln is not a luxury car manufacturer, it is a near-luxury manufacturer. Caddy could be considered to be a luxury car manufacturer though.

    Whether you like it or not the 328/335 are siblings and are staying. Year end clearance price or fire sale price is not a criteria either.
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