Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

ab348

And here's a rather negative review on the TLX:

https://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/driving-the-2015-acura-tlx--the-smooth-jazz-station-in-a-rock--n-roll-town-184506835.html

FWIW, Peter DeLorenzo slagged it this week too.

roadburner

@ab348 said:
FWIW, Peter DeLorenzo slagged it this week too.

I read that as well. Doubt I'd be considering it in any case...

roadburner

@flightnurse said:
. I feel people over state how the steering in the F30 really is, it's not the worse and it's not the best...

I think I'm just used to the communicative steering in my2002, E36, E90, and(dare I say it?) Mazdaspeed 3. I want to know exactly what is going on at the contact patches and the F30 is essentially mute in that respect. I'm still hoping that the steering in the M235i and the M3 will be an improvement.

graphicguy

@ab348 said:
And here's a rather negative review on the TLX:

https://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/driving-the-2015-acura-tlx--the-smooth-jazz-station-in-a-rock--n-roll-town-184506835.html

FWIW, Peter DeLorenzo slagged it this week too.

Gotta say...if this guy can't tell the difference between the 4 cyl and the 6 cyl, can't take him seriously. It was very obvious to me.

stickguy

that was a weird review. GG certainly has a different opinion. But, bottom line, the stuff he seems to be slamming it for is likely to be a big hit with a ton of buyers. Especially combined with a price (especially on a per feature basis) that is better than the Euro competitors. Plus, I suspect that many of the buyers in this segment are not looking for the sport aspect of their sport sedan.

I know that based on his review, I would keep it on my list.

flightnurse

@roadburner said:![]So now we are discussing motorcycles?

Love how Michael Dunlop was able to take BMW's new Sport Bike and win The Isle of Mann TT..

(https://us.v-cdn.net/5021145/uploads/editor/h9/aeybuut1td5w.jpg "")

qbrozen

I'm a NJ swapper. I don't care what the drive wheels are, snow tires are just too important to me.

stickguy

@qbrozen said:
I'm a NJ swapper. I don't care what the drive wheels are, snow tires are just too important to me.

And you are in the distinct minority.

flightnurse

@stickguy said:
And you are in the distinct minority.

I'm not too sure that he is. I'm sure there are more then you know, and if you are in the know, care to share your data?

flightnurse

So it appears that Car and Driver has added a Kia K900 to it's fleet of cars, here is a short review of it.

caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-kia-k900-v-8-long-term-test-introduction-review

kyfdx

I live in area that gets weather similar to NJ (minus the tropical storm/hurricanes). I live in a small development with 35 houses. I'm the only one that runs winter tires. Most people just buy AWD, and go with all-seasons.

Even a die-hard winter tire fan like me... doesn't put them on their AWD vehicles..

ab348

@flightnurse said:
So it appears that Car and Driver has added a Kia K900 to it's fleet of cars, here is a short review of it.

caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-kia-k900-v-8-long-term-test-introduction-review

It looks like Kia cut a deal with Ford to buy the tooling for the dashboard of the next Town Car when Ford decided not to build such a thing.

A $60,000 Kia must be tough on the sensibilities of their usual Walmart shoppers.

sweendogy

@qbrozen @stickguy - it seems you are spot on as- "Winter tire shipments in the U.S. have stagnated over the past few years at about 4 to 5 percent of aftermarket passenger tire shipments. Looking just at legitimate "snow belt" areas, the percentage still is estimated at only about 8 to 9 percent."

@flightnurse - the deflector shields are down, change topic quick. Any new fake buying experiences at the local vw you can talk about, or check Beemer fest for an oddball fact. slick rick.

You can read more here
http://www.tirebusiness.com/article/20131122/NEWS/131129969/industry-groups-promote-winter-tires-to-motorists

graphicguy

FN.....interesting review on the Kia.

Like the Equus, I don't think I've seen but one on the street around here.

Unfortunately, the Kia dealership near me isn't probably the kind of place I would go to buy a $60,000 car. Pretty big difference walking into a BMW, Acura, Mercedes, Infiniti dealership and buying a car than walking into a Kia dealership.

graphicguy

@kyfdx said:
I live in area that gets weather similar to NJ (minus the tropical storm/hurricanes). I live in a small development with 35 houses. I'm the only one that runs winter tires. Most people just buy AWD, and go with all-seasons.

Even a die-hard winter tire fan like me... doesn't put them on their AWD vehicles..

We live in the same "neck 'o the woods". I can't remember the last time I bought a snow tire.

If it's so bad out that I feel my RWD, AWD, FWD car can't make it with the shoes it has, then I don't want or need to be out in the weather. That sort of weather only happens once every 2-3 years around here, though.

Come to think of it, I've driven in worse weather with bald, skinny tires when I was younger and much less intelligent.

I had a really nice Datsun 240Z (bought used) and an MGB GT (bought very used) at one point. Used to drive those in the snow and muck. Not sure I'd attempt that today. But, that was done when I had more nerves than brains.

robr2

I live in Boston and all 3 vehicles (including the AWD Explorer) wear snow shows. I travel all over New England in my job and I'd rather not get stuck in Burlington, VT when a few inches drop while I'm there. Further, we ski and it's the same thing.

Some of what drives me to use snow tires is keeping the OEM rims out of the salt and muck. Even waxed, they take get damaged in the winter.

Mr_Shiftright

Very amusing article actually.

@flightnurse said:
So it appears that Car and Driver has added a Kia K900 to it's fleet of cars, here is a short review of it.

caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-kia-k900-v-8-long-term-test-introduction-review

flightnurse

@robr2 said:
I live in Boston and all 3 vehicles (including the AWD Explorer) wear snow shows. I travel all over New England in my job **and I'd rather not get stuck in Burlington, VT **when a few inches drop while I'm there. Further, we ski and it's the same thing.

Some of what drives me to use snow tires is keeping the OEM rims out of the salt and muck. Even waxed, they take get damaged in the winter.

I've been to Burlington a few times I wouldn't mind getting stuck there. Of course I wasn't there in winter time.

laurasdada

Like RobR, I live in the Boston area and am a life long skier (including VT, ME, NH). Until the Jag XK, always driven (fun!) FWD cars. Until my '05 Acura TL, never had snows and always survived and thrived in the white gold. But, the TL was sub-standard in that respect, first time I felt the need for snow shoes. Got Dunlop WinterSports mounted on (on sale) alloys for the winter from Tire Rack, did el swappo winter/summer. Big improvement, snow problem solved.

Then, of course, I traded the TL for the Jag XK. A natural progression, happens all the time. OEM Dunlop Summer tires made even saying the word "snow" out loud a dangerous thing! First 1/8" snowfall and I couldn't get up my mildly steep driveway. Luckily, SUV in the garage to the rescue...

But, as the only constant in life is change, I had to once again grow up and buy the eminently sensible pair of shoes ride I now so enjoy. AWD, with big RWD bias and Conti all seasons. Handled this past winter's best with aplomb. But, should my next sled by RWD, I wouldn't hesitate to buy another set of winter tires, probably again on rims.

And, FN, I lived in Burlington for a bit one winter. Oh, so long ago... Lovely city, but winter time can last a long time! And, as I understand it, due to it's topography of mountains and Lake Champlain, not the sunniest of cities. But, any place that gave birth to Ben and Jerry's is a 10 in my book!

m6user

The last time I used snow tires was before radial tires even became common. Growing up in Michigan with nothing but rear wheel drive cars and bias ply tires it was a necessity. Have lived in snow belt all my life and haven't needed or used snow tires for the past 40 at least. Nobody in my neighborhood uses them nor any of my relatives. With all the toys now nobody has room in their garage anymore. Half the people can't even fit two cars into their two car garage.

FN..reading comments on Bimmerfest and extrapolating that to the general population is referencing a very small and select sample of the population. Hardly the reference work to use to get an overall picture of reality. Living in AZ certainly doesn't give you a lot of direct knowledge of the nations snow tire use either. Do a lot of people that live in snow country which also run summer tires on sports cars also change to snows in winter? Probably. A majority? Who really knows. But even if a majority of that group does, that still says nothing for the other 99%. Definitive statements need facts or direct relevant knowledge.

flightnurse

@m6user said:
FN..reading comments on Bimmerfest and extrapolating that to the general population is referencing a very small and select sample of the population. Hardly the reference work to use to get an overall picture of reality. Living in AZ certainly doesn't give you a lot of direct knowledge of the nations snow tire use either. Do a lot of people that live in snow country which also run summer tires on sports cars also change to snows in winter? Probably. A majority? Who really knows. But even if a majority of that group does, that still says nothing for the other 99%. Definitive statements need facts or direct relevant knowledge.

My reference of Bimmerfest was just a sample, and I never stated other wise. But modern cars today that are RWD have the elec nannies to make them drive-able in the snow with the correct tires. The fact that manufactures are telling people they need AWD was true 25 yrs ago, but technology has changed this.

graphicguy

LD...FN.....I can see where RWD and snow tires are a must, depending on geographic locale and the type of car (no way either my former Mustang GT nor my RX8 would budge even at the mention of snow). But, they had summer only rubber. Put something half way descent M&S tires and they would go.

Tire technology has indeed advanced in the last half dozen years. I know the first time I encountered run flats were in a 330i (RWD). No problems in the snow, but they made the car ride like a brick. Those run flats are better these days.

Even the all season tires on my son's Fiesta and the wife's Accord are better than the ones I've encountered just 5 years ago.

As you state, with the computers and sensors in today's cars, things have to be pretty severe to get stuck or go flying into the weeds (barring shear stupidity while driving) in the snow.

Even rental cars can get around with their "base model" tires. Spent a lot of time from Logan Airport to Lynn, Marlborough, Acton, Waltham, etc.....summer, winter, didn't matter. Coming in and out of the "Big Dig" was a challenge. Never got stuck. Never got sideways. Always in a rental car.

m6user

So since Bimmerfest was just a sample of your reference and you seem to be so sure that snow tire use is widespread, what are a few of the other sources you're basing your statement on? Traction control and other electronic nannies as you call them would seem to further lessen the use snow tires to some degree. The nannies and very good quality all-season tires have led to smaller and smaller percentage of snow tire users IMO.

I think there are small regions in the N.E. where topography and winter snowfall probably lends to a much higher percentage of snow tire use than most areas. Anywhere where mountains and lots of snowfall cross paths would make them popular. But in probably 80% of the country they see very little use.

flightnurse

@m6user said:
So since Bimmerfest was just a sample of your reference** and you seem to be so sure that snow tire use is widespread, **what are a few of the other sources you're basing your statement on?

I never said widespread.

sweendogy

null
No never widespread just without fact -

Kirstie_H

This is a fairly pointless debate. Time to move on.

Mr_Shiftright

Very amusing article actually.

@flightnurse said:
So it appears that Car and Driver has added a Kia K900 to it's fleet of cars, here is a short review of it.

caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-kia-k900-v-8-long-term-test-introduction-review

Kirstie_H

Have you had any strange interactions or bloopers with the voice command system in your car? A reporter would like to talk with you. Please send your story to pr@edmunds.com by Wednesday, August 13, 2014.

sweendogy

For those who still want to know about snow tires vs AWD and what pro drivers think interesting article on popular machanics. Timely quote as well "
Note to those from warm climes: Snowbanks are not puffy and cushiony."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/industry/the-myth-of-the-all-powerful-all-wheel-drive-15202862

markcincinnati

I Never Would Have Thought of This Outcome:

I wouldn’t want you to think that I take advantage of my Audi dealer’s willingness to throw me the keys to a new A3, A6, A7, Q5, Q7, S4, SQ5, S6 or TT (who me?!) – I’ve not really been interested in driving an A8 and the S8’s and R8’s are almost always “sold cars,” besides since my dealer knows when either my wife or I am “in the market,” I’d hate to push it by putting them in the position of having to say “no” especially since we’ve only had our 2014 “S” Audis for months, not years.

It was with the full understanding that we are not currently in the market that my wife and I decided that Saturday last was the day we would test drive a new Audi. We thought long and hard about taking a test drive of either a 2014 A6 3.0T or a 2015 A6 2.0T with the sport package and lots of options. Both of these cars were on the lot and not “sold” cars. My wife asked me what I really, really wanted to drive, now, if I could only drive one car, I immediately answered a new “S6” – that was easy.

A few minutes after walking in the showroom door, we were handed the keys to a 2014 S6 with about 300 miles on the OD and with a few choice options: cold weather package, black wood and aluminum trim, black interior and panther black exterior. Also present: 20” wheel upgrade (from the standard 19” inchers). Since the designation of the S6’s is now Prestige, there were very few features the car didn’t have – it did not have the top view camera for example, or the automatic cruise control including stop and go, etc.
To my eye, I sat down, behind the wheel of The Batmobile (the color combo having a lot to do with that) and pressed the start button only to be immediately more than a little impressed by the “awakening.” Unfortunately, this car was an S6, not an S5, RS5 or even S4. I say unfortunately because the car was clearly focused 90% on the luxury side of sport-luxury. This became even more evident when I put the car into drive (which means “S” or sport mode since I had set the steering and air suspension to Dynamic (along with the engine and transmission) using Audi-Drive-Select. I ultimately changed the steering to Auto mode which gives the car super easy turns at slow speed, but tightens things up considerably as the MPHs climb.

Speaking of climbing, I got onto a nearby Interstate (I-275 by-pass, eastbound) and was cruising along at a steady 60MPH – when all of a sudden, I floored the S6 and counted to three (one, two, three) – I counted pretty quickly too -- certainly 1, 2, 3! (think Sia) -- in less than three seconds. I released the accelerator completely and looked down at the speedometer only to see an indicated 102MPH. The sensation I had was, well, muted, subdued, suppressed – sublime. There was virtually no drama, barely any sound (angry engine or otherwise) lingered at all, and I was coasting down but still showing an indicated 90+-something on the speedo.

What did I do next? Well, I “punched” the accelerator pedal for another Sia-like one-two-three moment, signaled right for the rapidly rushing at me exit ramp, hit the ramp at incredible speed, barely “mashed” the brake pedal only to get a momentary sensation that the S6 had impossibly instantaneously scrubbed off about 80 miles per hour (and almost magically seemed to be going backwards the descent was that swift) as I damn near just coasted to a stop as if nothing had happened 1-second ago. Meanwhile, I awaited the traffic-light to glow green.

I tried out the S6’s handling envelope using my completely accurate and totally made up (therefore unscientific) routine of driving faster and faster and faster in a circle, then carving through an imaginary slalom barely nicking those [also imaginary] orange cones. The thing carves like a hot knife through buttah! A little, not much, body roll – but hey, this thing is a full-sized vehicle, remember.

Here’s the thing, after my test drive – during which time I became thoroughly smitten – I drove (in sequence) our 2014 SQ5 and next up our 2014 S4. Now, I read the mfgr’s published 0-60 numbers for all three of these “S” vehicles, and the S6 is, after all, the quickest of the three, on-paper. The thing is my $58,000 S4 is very quiet, too, and I have the upgraded seats (which certainly seem very similar to the S6’s) further blurring the differences -- between the S4 and S6. My B&O sound system edges out the S6’s Bose system by a small but discernable difference, especially in the clarity department – the B&O tweeters are really impressive, the Bose’s less so.
The S6 however, commands, no, demands your attention – much more so than the Ibis White S4, which seems to have a bit less “presence” than the Panther Black S6.

Regarding the S6: I want one, I want one, I want one – and for perhaps $68-$70,000 (as equipped), I would actually say the value is really there. The thing is, however, the bottom line on the sticker was $79,500+. It (the S6) just didn’t seem to be THAT much more car, even though it would be worth considering hocking the family jewels and taking out a second mortgage.
I loved the S6, I mean I really loved the car – it just isn’t worth (to me), as far as I can tell, $22,000 more than my S4 or $19,000 more than my wife’s SQ5. With an emphasis on more performance, I would possibly see where the money went – however, the emphasis is on luxury, isolation and stealth.

Where the S4 is an iron fist with a velvet glove on it, the S6 is an iron fist wrapped in thick density foam with a velvet glove on it. I guess for nearly 80 grand, folks might well prefer stealth to show-off. I think I get that.

Me? Well let’s just say, I’d like a bit more sturm und drang.

carnaught

Mark, here vicariously with you. Nice review, thanks.

sweendogy

@markcincinnati‌ very good- enjoyed that a lot

stickguy

only quibble. 79K sticker is way out of entry level!

sweendogy

The new mb C class- looks like mb decided to bring more at an added cost of course -

• http://youtu.be/d6Oawpqklso

First video I've seen

nyccarguy

Great post Mark!

graphicguy

Mark....thanks. Good read on your comparo.

markcincinnati

The new Car & Driver tests the almost here S3 (and at its price point, it ought to be in the ELLPS family). The article opens and closes suggesting that the S3 will cannibalize sales from the S4.

After reading the review, I would mostly agree -- but, as the S6 is to the S4 (that is to say way more luxurious but with plenty of go and stop talent), I would think the next S4 we will get will distance itself from the S3 by virtue of great gobs of power (instead of 333HP, how about 395 -- 100 more than the S3 as a nice round number?) and even more luxury bits and pieces.

I mean the new S4 has to have (or be) a step up either in performance or luxury or both -- and Audi probably will go with a decent power upgrade over the current S4, but likely will go with a huge dollop of lux given the brand's positioning. Perhaps if there is an RS4, there will be great gobs of new power and large lumps of added luxury.

I mean, really, other than the satisfaction of knowing you're in an S4 (and paid more), C&D is right, for most folks the S3 will be the one to asipire to.

My gawd, the S3 can be had for the price of an A4 -- and only loose a bit of trunk space and rear leg room. Most folks here will drive the car solo or have but one front-seat adult passenger.

The only thing lacking from the new S3 is the torque vectoring rear diff. Wouldn't surprise me if they figured out how to do that within a model year or so.

One last thing, a prediction: Given my recent S6 test drive: the new S6, whenever that comes out, will loose 2 more pistons, but manage to have more power and get better mileage and with it being a V6, the car will be less nose heavy, improving its handling performance.

flightnurse

@markcincinnati said:

My gawd, the S3 can be had for the price of an A4 -- and only loose a bit of trunk space and rear leg room. Most folks here will drive the car solo or have but one front-seat adult passenger.

The only thing lacking from the new S3 is the torque vectoring rear diff. Wouldn't surprise me if they figured out how to do that within a model year or so.

One last thing, a prediction: Given my recent S6 test drive: the new S6, whenever that comes out, will loose 2 more pistons, but manage to have more power and get better mileage and with it being a V6, the car will be less nose heavy, improving its handling performance.

Mark, have you sat in a A3 yet? From what I have read the rear seat are pretty cramp for adults like they were for the first gen A4. I thought the A3 was a way to get people into the Audi fold be offering a lower entry point. BMW decided to offer the 320 to do the same thing, which has been very successful for them since the 3 series sales are up 7% over last year.

stickguy

I sat in an A3 a couple of weeks ago. The rear seat was way too cramped for me (leg room OK but way short on head room.)

ivan_99

@stickguy said:
I sat in an A3 a couple of weeks ago. The rear seat was way too cramped for me (leg room OK but way short on head room.)

And you're 6'8"?

stickguy

6' even.

markcincinnati

My point regarding the new A3/S3 (which I have not driven, but have sat in) is that it will "force" the A4/S4 to move upscale in terms of luxury and it will also get more power so that the S3 will not be quicker than an S4.

The basis for my comments is the new C&D article where C&D says the S3 makes the S4 irrelevant or something akin to that.

I have not seen the S3 yet -- but the A3 would probably receive the same comments -- this time aimed at the A4 -- from the author of the C&D piece on the S3.

If you accept that as having some truth to it, it would seem that Audi will be forced to do something to keep the A3/S3 from siphoning off customers from the A4/S4.

Many folks buy/lease these cars and only the front seats see much adult duty -- the rear seats may be used by an adult, but probably only rarely. I think the A4/S4 is a bit cramped in the back seat -- so the A3, of course, must be quite cramped.

But, who cares if 95% of the time it is a driver and maybe a front seat passenger. Even those who take their colleagues to lunch probably would find no issue with the A3 for the often short drive from the office to the lunch wagon.

What could the A4/S4 do -- add performance and/or add luxury -- and being that you're Audi, you would probably err on the side of adding lux first, performance second (my point about the S6 is that it is a far more "muted" sporting vehicle, emphasizing luxury first -- even though it IS a screamer performance wise.)

The 2016 A4 line will -- if history repeats -- not offer up an S4, rather that will come in MY 2017. But, even the A4 vs the A3 will have the A4 needing to be different enough from the A3 to justify the price. Size of the wheelbase, length, width, etc, alone is (and I'm with C&D here) will not be enough to make the choice clear between the two -- the A4 will have to lead with more "stuff" more lux stuff and more performance than the A3 at any one point in time.

Perhaps, the 2015 S4 will be more heavily discounted due to the birth of the S3 in the US next month -- get 'em while their hot for about a year.

I may be wrong throwing my lot in with C&D, but I just can't see what the A4/S4 development team has as an alternative to the A3/S3 but to take the A4/S4 upstream, so to speak.

Please make your argument to the contrary, I would really love to think the A4 family can and will hold its own, will be differentiated sufficiently from the A3 to keep the A4 sales on an upward trajectory.

I just don't see any alternative for the A4 but to head for the top (of course this will likely mean a stupid price delta will "erupt" between the cars -- something like I was lamenting regarding the price difference between an S4 and an S6.)

flightnurse

@markcincinnati said:

Please make your argument to the contrary, I would really love to think the A4 family can and will hold its own, will be differentiated sufficiently from the A3 to keep the A4 sales on an upward trajectory.

I just don't see any alternative for the A4 but to head for the top (of course this will likely mean a stupid price delta will "erupt" between the cars -- something like I was lamenting regarding the price difference between an S4 and an S6.)

Why does the A4 have to have more "luxury" to differentiated itself from the A3? Also how can Audi make it more Luxury? The A3 is about the same size as the first gen A4, so if the A3 is too small for some, the current A4 is bigger and roomier which would fit most people. One can get the same 2L turbo engine in the A3 as in the A4, I think the A4 should get a power boost, say in the 230-240hp range and keep the A3 at the current HP rating. Now for the S4, 333hp is not enough to make it faster then the S3 Audi can either increase HP or not worry about it. Again, people who want a bigger car then S3 will move up to a S4, I'm sure there are some items that can not be had on the S3 that you can get with the S4.

flightnurse

@stickguy said:
I sat in an A3 a couple of weeks ago. The rear seat was way too cramped for me (leg room OK but way short on head room.)

I agree and I'm 6' also, granted I think the A3 is more for people who want a premium brand without paying the premium price, since a mid level A3 is around 32K which is rougly the medium cost of a new car today.

sweendogy

"I think the A4 should get a power boost, say in the 230-240hp " I'm sure the 10 hp advantage will drive sales.

sweendogy

New s3 vs older s4 agree if I was buying new 6months ago and the s3 was around I would def take a huge look even with its smaller size. I have had 3 people in my car once - 4 people never, mostly it's just me.

markcincinnati

Even without the "3" Audi would be/will be hard pressed NOT to increase the content of the A4/S4 (either optionally or as standard equipment). Sitting in the back seat of an A3 is not something I would want to do, granted -- but I'd rather not have to sit in the back seat of a current A4 either.

Now, then, that comment might suggest Audi will enlarge the A4 -- I guess there would be a temptation to do that; there is an A4L in China (at least) to be sure.

Making the A4/S4 more luxury, high-tech contented is, I think (I have no secret or insider info) virtually inevitable -- if not for the competition from the A3/S3, just the competition from the market itself.

sweendogy

@markcincinnati‌ - agree a4 should/will move up as it seems the new C class has done as the new Cla has arrived - audi now has a smaller sedan- a4 moves up- bmw I'm guessing will have a new 1 class at some point and move up the 3.

-on a side note I'm amazed by how many different classes of cars Bmw has - GTs, coupes, converts, wagons, SUVs, weird looking SUVs, 5 door coupes , (where is the pickup?) - if there is a car Idea they make it and I think it's pretty cool-

markcincinnati

The quest for the "Swiss-army knife" of car models soldiers on. There will be a car that is a four-door coupe, CUV, convertible and hot rod all rolled into one any day now.

That cue comes, somewhat, from Porsche with the Macan -- all they have to do is figure out how to make the roof retract and by George I think they'll have it!

sweendogy

@markcincinnati said:
The quest for the "Swiss-army knife" ........That cue comes, somewhat, from Porsche with the Macan -- all they have to do is figure out how to make the roof retract and by George I think they'll have it!

Nissan tried that with the murano - and I don't know if that's the answer