Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

stickguy

I’m a big fan now of the better 2.0t engines.

henryn

I love, absolutely love, turbocharged engines.

Mr_Shiftright

Yep. Contrary to what the good ol' boys used to say, there IS a "replacement for displacement"!

Michaell

Is the new VW GLI an ELLPS?

Discuss.

kyfdx

No, no it is not. No discussion needed.

qbrozen

speaking of actual ELLPS, the new S60 is getting strong reviews thus far. I like the idea of the T6 AWD with MSRP in the mid 40s. 0-60 in the low-mid 5s. Of course, the T8 is about a full second faster (or more) but also heavier and far more complex. I seriously doubt it will be worth the $10k price premium.

stickguy

S60 is very nice. I’m good with cheaper and less complicated T5 FWD.

qbrozen

stickguy said:

S60 is very nice. I’m good with cheaper and less complicated T5 FWD.

You'd have to be because you like your fancy options and would wind up with an MSRP same as mine even in T5 FWD trim. ;b

stickguy

Doesn’t even need options really. About all the important stuff is standard I think. I configured one with some extras and ended up right about 40 on the nose.

qbrozen

Ah, I assumed you'd want the multimedia, advanced, premium, and cold weather packs. That's over $8k in options.

kyfdx

qbrozen said:

Ah, I assumed you'd want the multimedia, advanced, premium, and cold weather packs. That's over $8k in options.

Now, you did it..

stickguy

nope. Basically this one. I would not mind a couple things in the multimedia package (fancier stereo and fancy 12.3" dash display) but not enough to pay a total of $5,000 to get them! Of course, would depend on lease prices...

https://www.volvocars.com/us/build/sedan/s60/momentum/t5-fwd/summary?s=26KYM47

ksoman

kyfdx said:

ksoman said:

I hate the 4 bangers with breathers on top. At these insane prices for tiny tin pots, I want 6s. I miss my 2004 bmw flat 6... but not the car. Thank god I got out of that mistake.

Straight six, not flat six (Flat six would be a Porsche)

Tomato, tomato.... (I know it's not )

andres3

Do you consider entry level luxury to be an equipment checklist, or a quality fit & finish standard that you "know it when you see it?"

qbrozen

andres3 said:

Do you consider entry level luxury to be an equipment checklist, or a quality fit & finish standard that you "know it when you see it?"

Fair question. Much like appearance, tech can be cheap. I’d say luxo is more “you’ll know it when you FEEL and EXPERIENCE it.”

circlew

It's all relative!

Mr_Shiftright

I think it is rather subjective, and heavily dependent on what you just stepped out of, too.

Speaking for myself, my sense of luxury is sort of a "you know it by what you DON'T see"---does that make sense?

You know, cheap hard plastics, for instance---things you touch or look at every day.

breld

Agree with all the previous posts on "luxury."

There are a lot of subtle (sometimes not so subtle) enhancements that you generally get out of a luxury make - nicer materials for one, often in places like the headliner, storage compartments, etc. Switches and button are also an area that seem to receive greater attention. Then there are things that often come along with luxury makes like a smoother drivetrain.

A better dealership experience is generally part of it too.

My thought is the luxury makes do offer something additional for the extra cost of the vehicle, and it's up to the buyer to determine whether those things are of particular value to them.

Mr_Shiftright

I think some luxury brands offer more value than others. It's rather shocking to contemplate, for instance, that you can spend $80K on a luxury SUV and then have to pay extra for parking assist, for instance. Even at the high end of the luxury market, quite a few automakers still nibble at you, even after you've paid all that money.

thebean

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think some luxury brands offer more value than others. It's rather shocking to contemplate, for instance, that you can spend $80K on a luxury SUV and then have to pay extra for parking assist, for instance. Even at the high end of the luxury market, quite a few automakers still nibble at you, even after you've paid all that money.

I believe this is the “greater fool” theory. If someone can be fooled into believing the marketing hype and pay $80K for a (an?) SUV, they certainly can be fooled into paying some more money for options that are standard on a lot of mainstream brands.

Mr_Shiftright

Like the Range Rover? Parking assist, adaptive cruise, heads up display--either options that are part of $$$ packages or not available at all. Geez, you could get HID on wheezy old Corvettes from years ago! I hope the entry level LUX cars don't do this by chintzing out on basic level stuff.

andres3

There is some value to luxury cars with quality chassis and suspension components though. Interior quality too. A lower base price isn't a bad thing for those that can do without the latest techno-gadget.

I continue to think my A3 in '06 was the bargain of a lifetime, even if the GTI was similar for less.

sweendogy

ding dong the witch is dead ...Nice to see bmw getting rid of this bad boy- who would even look at this thing
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a26872910/bmw-3-series-gran-turismo-dead/

roadburner

It was truly an odd duck- based on the Chinese F35 long wheelbase 3er, I never saw the point.

stickguy

I liked that model. A bit more room in the back seat, and I have always been a sucker for a sedan looking hatch (I still miss my 626 5-door!). Heck, way back when I had a Hornet hatch too.

ab348

There’s one in every crowd. 😉

qbrozen

We considered it for the wife since it seemed nicer than an X1 and bigger and higher than the sedan. Never did get around to driving it though. The X2 just made far better financial sense. 

sweendogy

BMW do away with the 3 wagon? Can’t find it on the bmw site.

Mr_Shiftright

https://jalopnik.com/dead-for-america-2019-bmw-3-series-wagon-1830980704

ab348

One is reminded of the Monty Python sketch about the man returning a dead parrot to the place he bought it and facing a clerk who insists it is not dead:

"This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!"

RIP BMW 3 wagon.

kyfdx

sweendogy said:

BMW do away with the 3 wagon? Can’t find it on the bmw site.

It's still there for 2019 model

dino001

Yes. It's kind of hidden from the view, but you need to get it through "Build - Wagons". It's 2019, but it's the old platform. New platform will not feature wagon for the US. Bummer. No wagon, no GT. The only thing with five doors left will be 4-series GC and presumably 6-GT (at least for time being). Not in the market for now, so it doesn't matter, but when time comes I'll most likely be looking at A5/S5 SB, 430/440 GC, Stinger (if I can only stomach the "dealer experience") and new V60 (it looks really good). Unless I throw the towel and go compact SUV.

circlew

Funny, the dealer experience nixed it for me with the Stinger! Reminds me of the same feeling trying to deal with the local Pontiac dealer for the G8 GT!

So, I went with a CX-5 Sig!!

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, it seems that in spite of the new and often highly competitive products, Kia dealers are still....well.....Kia dealers

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

Yes, it seems that in spite of the new and often highly competitive products, Kia dealers are still....well.....Kia dealers

Products like the '16 Optima LX Turbo are not going to win them any customers from people that have driven truly far superior (and more expensive, to be fair) cars.

They are good econo-boxes at a decent value, that's about it.

Mr_Shiftright

They do provide good value and I think that is basically Kia's mission. It's not a car you are going to keep for 10 years. It's not a Honda or Toyota in that regard, but it's pretty good for the money, you have to say.

ksoman

Mr_Shiftright said:

Yep. Contrary to what the good ol' boys used to say, there IS a "replacement for displacement"!

NOOOOPEEEEE

Mr_Shiftright

Except for one good ol' boy....duly noted!

Used to be you needed displacement for torque, while the small, highly tweaked, multi-valve, SC or Turbo engines of modest displacement give you HP (like many race cars). So torque for quick acceleration and HP for high speed. (plus aero, of course). It used to be "take your pick".

But that's not the case anymore. Now we see V-6 of around 200 CID putting out way over 400 ft. lbs (in some cases, over 500 ft lbs). Incredible.

ab348

Until it blows up. Those highly stressed turbo engines are dancing on the razor's edge. I see it all the time on the ATS groups, the kids buy a tune and some aftermarket go-fast parts, then ka-boom. Then they complain that the dealer won't fix their engine under warranty.

Mr_Shiftright

Well, now, everybody is smarter than the factory engineers, aren't they?

cdnpinhead

It's always a series of tradeoffs -- durability vs. performance, ease of assembly vs. maintainability (installing the engine from the bottom is quicker, but. . .) Durability and maintainability aren't valued much by the driving public these days, so you get what you get.

henryn

ab348 said:

Until it blows up. Those highly stressed turbo engines are dancing on the razor's edge. I see it all the time on the ATS groups, the kids buy a tune and some aftermarket go-fast parts, then ka-boom. Then they complain that the dealer won't fix their engine under warranty.

I do believe you are overgeneralizing. Engines like the ecoboost in Ford pickups are not "highly stressed" and are not "dancing on the razor's edge". And they outperform V8 engines with twice the displacement.

dino001

henryn said:

ab348 said:

Until it blows up. Those highly stressed turbo engines are dancing on the razor's edge. I see it all the time on the ATS groups, the kids buy a tune and some aftermarket go-fast parts, then ka-boom. Then they complain that the dealer won't fix their engine under warranty.

I do believe you are overgeneralizing. Engines like the ecoboost in Ford pickups are not "highly stressed" and are not "dancing on the razor's edge". And they outperform V8 engines with twice the displacement.

There is a difference between factory turbo and some stage 10 kit you got of an website. However, it is to be seen how those turbos will perform at 100K+ miles. I read Ford vehicles suffer from reliability issues with their "Ecoboost" turbo engines, but I'm not sure what kind of reliability problems these are. Sometimes it may be electrical/computer trouble that has nothing to do with engine stress, more with crappy software or even crappier electrical components. Those can kill engines (or at least owner's enthusiasm) way before the combustion pressure can.

roadburner

The engine in my MS3 was relatively high-strung and at 138k miles the turbo was not showing any signs of wear or other issues.

Mr_Shiftright

I wouldn't let worry about turbo durability affect my decision to buy the type of car we're talking about here.

andres3

And some car-makers might be on the razor's edge at stock power ratings, while others are barely breaking a sweat at Stage 2 tuneups.

circlew

10 year warranty on a twin turbo 365hp/376lb/ft. in 3.3 ltr package from Korea. No worries

stickguy

My son is going to get to take his genesis 3.3 out on the track at Watkins glen. 3 laps following the pace car. He’s looking forward to it. No clue how fast they will let him go though.

coldinohio

WG is a tough track; nice turns... he will enjoy

Mr_Shiftright

andres3 said:

And some car-makers might be on the razor's edge at stock power ratings, while others are barely breaking a sweat at Stage 2 tuneups.

A tune is a tune--it's going to put more wear on your car even if well-engineered. Warranties are great, but they don't keep cars from breaking. If you buy hi-performance, there's always a trade off and you have to up your maintenance game, too.