Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

kdshapiro

There must be a lot of denial going on around here. :confuse

oac

you gotta ask yourself, how did a slower car that broke down beat out a brand new contender that sprang from the most powerful and financially flush company in the world?
....
A vast automotive conspiracy? Bias?

BGDC: On the face of it, that an unreliable BMW beat out a new IS350 smark of conspiracy, don't ya think ? Let's see, of the 3 major cateogries - vehicle, powertrain and chassis, the IS350 beat out the 330i in 2 of 3 (vehicle and powertrain), but lost in the chassis category. Hmmm ! The IS350 is a better car where it matters, vehicle (fit-and-finish, ergonomics, style, etc) and powertrain (performance, engine flexibility, tranny, etc). Gotta-have-it-factor: dead tie. Fun-to-drive: 23-to-22, a virtual tie. So how exactly did this broken down, unreliable e90 win ? And if you die-hard fanatics cannot even see that these two cars are a virtual tie, you must have more denial than I think...

But more to your point: We all know how much these auto rags rave about the 3-series as the benchmark of BMW automotive engineering excellence. To beat that car will take a herculian task. And the IS350 did, even with a slushbox ! The measured (objective and subjective) difference b/w the e90 and the IS350 is infinitesimal, at best... virtual tie at worst. That it took Lexus 6 years to beat the vaunted 3-series is what counts, not the unreliability of the Bimmer or the money flush at Toy/Lexus. At least, they put their money where their mouth is.

oac

Don't look now, but the "total package" is missing a manual transmission (assuming you're referring to the IS350). As you yourself expressed, "Just imagine the IS with a 6MT." Imagine? I'd rather they actually make one available, but that's just me.

For how many people in the NA market ??? Even BMW sells far more slushboxes than stick shifts. So ?

The IS300 I drove had more HP & "TQ" than the 325i (E46) I bought. Why did I buy the 3? Because "HP isn't everything," and that's a fact.

Then what is ? Oh, I forget... the name and the hype - the ultimate driving machine.. always trumps reality...

I like the new IS more than most, but without a clutch and H pattern shifter available the 350 isn't even a consideration. If I were looking at purchasing a new car this fall, I'd be looking seriously at the IS250, not the IS350.

And you'll be missing out on the overall best car for ya money in the category. Your loss is someone else's gain... There won't be enough IS350s for the demand, you can bet that.

By the way, a V6 is a step backwards over the previous I6

The same ol' song from BMW officianados... the V6 in the IS is smoother, more efficient, provides better MPG than an I6 can ever be. And it is technologically superior to an I6. There !

kdshapiro

"And you'll be missing out on the overall best car for ya money in the category. Your loss is someone else's gain... There won't be enough IS350s for the demand, you can bet that."

Well I can understand your feelings of frustration having an automaker with $11B in cash not being able to beat BMW at their own game.

This thread is the redux of the High-end luxury marquees!!! Where's Merc1 when we need him.

In addition, with Katrina and current bump in fuel prices, this might not be the best time to introduce a thirsty car. Hubris about the gas mileage aside, if people drive these cars as intended they will probably be getting less than stellar gas mileage. My guess is oil will top $80/barrel shortly. Ouch! Could rain on Lexus' parade.

oac

Well I can understand your feelings of frustration having an automaker with $11B in cash not being able to beat BMW at their own game.

Frustration.... what frustration ? TTC, all I'm doing is pointing out reality from hype...u all gotta remove the blinders and face the truth.... your vaunted 3-er ain't all that no more ! There is a new kid on the block now, and it is the IS350.

This thread is the redux of the High-end luxury marquees!!! Where's Merc1 when we need him.

You need Merc1 to defend ya ?

My guess is oil will top $80/barrel shortly. Ouch! Could rain on Lexus' parade.

Really ? With Lexus bringing out more fuel-efficient cars in the next couple of years, how can that hurt them ? The Prius is a best seller. The Highlander-H, RX400H are all selling quite well. The GS450H will be here in 6 months, and soon the Camry-H. What does BMW have to offer the buyers in fuel-efficient cars ? Diesel ??? Ya right !!!

pat

the redux of the High End Luxury Marques discussion, it is a discussion specifically about the vehicles listed above. It is NOT a general conversation about the manufacturers and it is not about each other.

Please keep your comments confined to the subject vehicles. Thanks.

blueguydotcom

What the hell? I'd rather a disel to a gas-electric hybrid. No contest. Diesel's run forever and get outstanding gas mileage on the freeway, while still supplying great torque. Batteries, engine shutdown. i know from experience with turbo diesels that I can pound them and still get great mileage. from what I've heard even nanny drivers that do 70-80 on the freeway don't come close to 50 mpg with a prius. the performance hybrids weigh more and get basically a little bit better mileage than gas versions.

Oh and OAC you're basically saying there's a vast automotive conspiracy directing the 330i to beat the IS350 in subjective tests.

bmwe90

When buying my G a couple of years ago I remember the dealership plastered with an article titled "The BMW Beater". When you told them you were also considering other options (namely the 3 series) they threw the book at you, literally (well the magazine reprint anyway). I bought the G. But even though the magazine touted the G as being a "BMW beater", they confessed that the only reason the BMW lost was because it was priced higher than a comparably equipped G. The G has been selling for some time now- and guess what? BMW has survived, no wait- thrived. I equate the upcoming lexus with the introduction of the G. I'm not one who pulls out a magazine and points to numbers when justifying my decision, but kdshapiro makes a good point- Toyota, with all of their resources, were, despite their best effort and a truck load of HP, unable to bump BMW off its seat at the top. And some of you are not giving those of us in our early 20's enough credit- I choose the 3 over all the other models because I like a car that can hold it's own as a complete package. HP is not the deciding factor for me, and I'm sure its not the only consideration for many future BMW buyers.

BUT, before everyone erupts in an argument over which sedan is superior- let the gosh darn thing arrive on US soil for sale before throwing punches. I bet BMW comes out on top in the end. It's quite a feat to unseat the old master- especially when he re invents himself with the help of one of the best automobile companies around...

saigonboi21

I agree!!! just wait until the car gets here first instead of second guessing who's better. This discussion could go on forever. People's opinions will differ and taht's it. Hard to change someone's mind once it's set on something. Just wait til the IS gets here- then we'll continue our convo ^_^

pat

it's about the cars listed at the top

and yeah, there's an echo in here, and it ain't of the Toyota variety

blueguydotcom

Ah, but entry level sport sedans in this world market with diesels are plentiful. We're not really talking out of turn as BMW, MB and the IS are all available with diesel engines.

pat

please! :sick:

albanytim

Sorry, Pat.

I'm picking up my new TL tomorrow. I ruled out RWD cars because I don't want to put on snow tires every year, and I'd need to here in upstate NY. I chose the TL over the G35 AWD and IS250 AWD because of overall value, better mileage than the G, and more power than the IS.

Thanks to everyone here for helping with my decision.

Tim

laurasdada

Congrats, Tim. If you have the non-nav TL with Bridgestone Turanza EL42 tires, be very careful in the snow. My first winter with mine here in Boston left me wholly unimpressed with the snow performace of these tires. Take it slow...!

Other than the tires, cool car. Does everything well. IMHO, best looking of the bunch, too.

laurasdada

Regarding the Comparo's. Everyone who is simply declaring a victor by the numbers, don't forget that the judges all DROVE the cars and made their decisions. Does a 0-60 of 5.6 vs 5.8 or .84 vs. .87 g's on the skidpad really matter in the real world to you??? Read all you want, but drive the cars and make your decisions and voice opinions. Don't just regurgitate #'s from the autorags and CR (btw, long time C and D subscriber, love the mag and respect most of their opinions). Is the IS better than the 3? Is the G better than the TL? Is the TL better than all of 'em. Yes to each, if you've done the research, driven the cars and evaluated them versus your criteria. That's how I ended up with the TL.

But keep discussing. I'm sure you will convert everyone to your way of thinking sooner or later.

oac

Yet many car manufacturers brag about HP, don't they ? We've heard for the umpteenth time how many people claim the IS250 AWD is underpowered because of its 204HP rating, relative to the weight of the car. Maybe BMW erred in upping the HP going from the e46 to the e90, eh ? Big mistake.... Who needs more HP in these BMWs, since it appears many of you don't really care for higher HP in your BMW. Oh, I get it: since the e90 has lower HP ratings than the top dogs in the class (TL, G, IS), then HP doesn't count. Right on bro'....

laurasdada

Many car manufacturers do indeed brag about HP. And safety. And MPG. And interior space. And value. And build quality and reliability. And.... whatever they believe will move iron.

Drive/compare the cars.

oac

Drive/compare the cars.

I have driven all these cars except the new IS, which I plan to as soon as it hits the dealer showrooms... Loved the feel of the 330ci I drove very recently, would buy the car except for the quirks... reliability issues mainly. The IS350 promises to be a great car....so I am looking forward to deciding if it is the car for me... We'll see.

kdshapiro

It doesn't count for some, it does count for others. Lexus was never about HP, and now it is? Since it temporarily has the most HP it should automatically be rated #1 :confuse As far as BMW goes, they don't have to build the most HP to get the most performance and the best handling. BMW was never about HP. A lot of cars have much more but don't do quite as much.

blueguydotcom

IMHO the e46 325i was worthless. Not nearly enough power for 30-35k car. Same holds true for an IS250.

If only want 200 hp, i'll go buy an A3/GTI and get a smoother, more efficient, torquier and in my view better engine than the 3.0 in my e46.

lovemyclk

"Loved the feel of the 330ci I drove very recently, would buy the car except for the quirks... reliability issues mainly."

What "quirks" and reliability issues surfaced in your test drive?

oac

None in a test drive. I drove my friend's 2001 330ci. But it is not comforting to see that a brand spanking new e90 330i tester provided by BMW to C&D broke down with several mechanical failures during the C&D review, what guarantees are there ???? See what I mean ?

lovemyclk

... and I imagine that since the Miata MX-5 has less than 200HP, it would not qualify as a "driving machine"? Less HP than the competitors, but one of the finest examples of a balanced machine where all the parts work in symphonic harmony. True with the BMW as well, IMO.

Many posters here appear to know the price of these cars, but the value of few. The engineering inside of true driving machines allows balance to shine as a primary quality in addition to cornering g's and HP. The thought that a 200HP 2.0 turbo four-banger in the Audi/VW even compares with the acclaimed 225HP 3.0l six in the BMW is an interesting take! Smoother? More efficient? Better? LMAO!

Most advanced engines produced today ARE admirable, but I don't see the Audi/VW on the Ward's list as I do the 3.0 from BMW. BTW, many of the arguments made in this forum for this car or that car would consider ranking a Camaro ahead of anything simply due to price/HP ratios.

Kinda like comparing the Corvette to the 911... both excellent sports cars, but are built to different standards than just HP. Sit in 'em and drive'em... more than empirical numbers will shine through and you'll "feel" the difference. True in many products from watches to suits!

There are buyers for all of these cars that have differing reasons for their choices... some financial, some just want the fastest for the least and some want the finest that today's automotive engineers can produce regardless of the price - and none are necessarily wrong. Some buyers just like having the choice of a Rolex Submariner or a Seiko dive watch - it's what makes choice a wonderful thing!

lovemyclk

Will have to read the article and get back to you...

blueguydotcom

... and I imagine that since the Miata MX-5 has less than 200HP, it would not qualify as a "driving machine"? Less HP than the competitors, but one of the finest examples of a balanced machine where all the parts work in symphonic harmony. True with the BMW as well, IMO.

No, that car is under 30k. Under 30k and under 2600 lbs means that little 160+ hp engine is a-okay with me. I've made myself clear on this over and over...over 30k, the car better have more than 200 hp.

Many posters here appear to know the price of these cars, but the value of few. The engineering inside of true driving machines allows balance to shine as a primary quality in addition to cornering g's and HP. The thought that a 200HP 2.0 turbo four-banger in the Audi/VW even compares with the acclaimed 225HP 3.0l six in the BMW is an interesting take! Smoother? More efficient? Better? LMAO!

I find the 2.0 to be far smoother than my 235hp 330i performance package. I find the power delivery to be smooth and linear - unlike the hiccuping, stuttering, peaky style employed on the 3.0. The 2.0 is extremely efficient as it gets 25/32 v. 20/30 on my 3.0. Sorry, I've owned a 1.8T and now own a 3.0. I'm more impressed by the old 1.8T and the current 2.0.

As for trannies, the DSG's got it all over BMW's notchy, balky, slow, binding 6 speeds.

Most advanced engines produced today ARE admirable, but I don't see the Audi/VW on the Ward's list as I do the 3.0 from BMW.

Ward's list = PR crap. It's as worthless as a magazine comparo. They put the VQ on there too and ever since Nissan bumped displacement from 3.0 to 3.5 that engine's been a NVH nightmare (at least in my experience with that rough, ratchety engine).

oac

BTW, many of the arguments made in this forum for this car or that car would consider ranking a Camaro ahead of anything simply due to price/HP ratios..

This is so patently false its not even funny. Maybe you forgot, this forum has a list of cars that are in the same CLASS, not some far out of space thingy.... Please make better argument and leave out the spurious ones....Comparing the speeds of an IS to a 3-er is quite correct, afterall they are in the same class.

albanytim

Thanks! Got the nav in part for the Michelin tires that I read about on these forums. Hopefully they'll be OK in the snow.

pg48477

Once again you missed the point. If you like to go with HP get yourself a Charger and save some money, but if you enjoy driving experiance you can't get it in IS. You also missed some important numbers like Slalom and Lane Change. Handling makes BMW an ultimate driving machine, nice leather makes a Lexus, you know a LEXUS. You can have a good argument with MB owners but BMW is in the different world. I bet FWD TL handles better then IS. :P

Boat is a boat even if its small and RWD with Lexus badge on it.

odessit

Could not resist not making a comment here:) Dima, you are right here – boat is a boat. Very comfortable boat I must say. And for those who like comfort – that is the perfect choice. I tried it, I liked it (comfort side of it). But I am still part of those who prefer superior handling of BMW over any comfort of cars like Lexus.

pg48477

It's a very nice boat, you right, for that reason it's better comparable with C320. Lexus always targeted MB not BMW. When BM finally decided to up HP, Lexus followed right alone. Let them catch MB in luxure game and then maybe they'll concentrate on performance (not HP and 0-60).

Which 3 did you get 325 or 330 6MT or AT?

odessit

325i AT, non-SP, minimum options: power and heated seats only. At the time I was buying the car I did not even consider anything else – I went straight to the bmw. I knew what I wanted and that was it. Even despite the fact that I knew there is a competition and I could get “more” car for potentially less money if I go with a different brand. But like I said- I knew what I wanted. After that I had a chance to drive Lexus, Infinity G35. So far no regrets that I went with bmw. But it is only my subjective opinion and describes my personal taste:)

qbrozen

Just wanted to point out that, if you have 208 hp in your volvo, you do NOT have a T5.

oac

I notice that NONE of the BMW officianados posting here have provided a SINGLE stat to back their statement about how the Bimmer is better than the IS. Rather its the same ol' same ol' you trut out about how BMW is such a great handling car... blah blah blah....

I'll say it again: the new IS350 is a 3-er beater. It comes with everything you'd need to kick the 330i, even when mated to a slush box, it still outruns all the MT sedans in its class. But its not just about speed, is it ? Its braking is best-in-class, its interior ergonomics is better than the e90, its exterior style is equally better, its handling is about even, and its ride is a tad lower than the e90 (w/non-sport version IS350 v sport-tuned 330i). In the fun-to-drive category, it is a virtual tie with the e90, and in the gotta-have-it both cars are a dead tie. How hard are these stats to digest for y'all ???? Oh, it promises to be more reliable, more safe, and we already know it is the fastest naturally aspirated V6 car in the entry-lux sport sedan class. A 5.1s to 60 is unbelievable, and doing a 13.7s to 1/4-mile has to be even more outstanding. But who cares, eh ? Oh, the IS350 is 52/48, while the e90 is 50.7/49.3; these two are the most balanced in the entire class...

In 1990, MB execs and fanatics looked down their nose at Lexus. 15 years later, they are looking UP their nose at Lexus. Now its BMW's turn to face Toy/Lexus, and if you guys don't learn anything from history, guess what: you are bound to repeat it. Like I said, BMW execs are certainly not taking Lexus lightly, but it'll take you guys a while to come to that reality. So continue your head-in-the-sand folly.

kdshapiro

"I'll say it again: the new IS350 is a 3-er beater. It comes with everything you'd need to kick the 330i,"

Except the road feel. The IS isn't out yet and C&D like the 330i better. Finesse over HP. I think that says it all. I find the proclamations about BMW being "dead" amusing, when a competitors car that has more HP, but not a "better" drivers car looses to the incumbent.

If HP alone is your game you will never win, because someone will always have more HP.

If BMW ever looked down their nose at Lexus, they must be celebrating with champagne at this latest comparo. Even though the car had some issues, it still came out on top. Now where is the 3.5L twin-turbo?

Note: I too find 5.1 unbelievable, but I wonder how many times that can be done without the tranny falling out. :lemon It still is remarkable, though not unexpected. 0-60 times have been inching down for the last few years.

With gas prices inching up to $4.00 gallon, it's going to be interesting how many people actually buy the IS350 when it's available.

odessit

Ok, oac, if I agree with you that IS350 is a 3-er beater will it make you feel better? If it is, and if it helps you to sleep better – ok, IS350 is 3-er beater. I just don’t recall since when it even became an issue what car beats what car? It is wise to discuss proc and cons and exchange opinions on different cars in order to make and an educated decision when choosing your next car, but argue and yell with no apparent reason "my car beats yours..." reminds my yearly school years
But again – if it makes you feel better then ok, let it be so... you car beats mine (325i). By the way, have YOU driven IS350? And have YOU driven IS350 and 325/330 bmw back-to-back lately? I’d really wish to hear your OBJECTIVE opinion

You are right though in one thing – none of the bmw "Aficionados" posting here have provided a SINGLE stat to back their statement about how the Bimmer is better than the IS. Well… maybe because it is useless to defend something that you simply love and enjoy driving? I don’t see any point in it. But to answer your statement about bmw handling (“same ol' same ol' … how BMW is such a great handling car… blah blah blah..”) I guess I just remembered how I measured the handling once. I was driving my friend’s Lexus (nice comfortable car) and turned steering wheel slightly and anticipated (actually needed) that the car will start turning. I turned the steering wheel a good, I’d say, 10 maybe 13 degrees. Well, needless to say, the car kept going straight. At the same speed and turning bmw’s steering wheel the same number of degrees, bmw actually responds. That is why I personally prefer bmw because of its handling and other things.
But in no way I am saying that my car is better or, God forbids, beats yours! I am just saying that I like my car for characteristics that have values to me and you probably like your car for some other characteristics that have values to you. We just have different values
Lighten up, dude:)

oac

I give up.... u guys just can't post straight. I conclude that you can't handle reality even when presented as CLEARLY as one can. Braking, ride, handling, speed, fit-and-finish, ergonomics, etc..... were all tested and the IS350 and 330i are a virtual TIE.... Yet, I get statements like this: "I find the proclamations about BMW being "dead" amusing, when a competitors car that has more HP, but not a "better" drivers car looses to the incumbent". Sad, really....

blueguydotcom

I notice that NONE of the BMW officianados posting here have provided a SINGLE stat to back their statement about how the Bimmer is better than the IS. Rather its the same ol' same ol' you trut out about how BMW is such a great handling car... blah blah blah..

Can you tell me with stats why Veal Cordon Bleu tastes better than a McDonald's hamburger?

In 1990, MB execs and fanatics looked down their nose at Lexus. 15 years later, they are looking UP their nose at Lexus. Now its BMW's turn to face Toy/Lexus, and if you guys don't learn anything from history, guess what: you are bound to repeat it. Like I said, BMW execs are certainly not taking Lexus lightly, but it'll take you guys a while to come to that reality. So continue your head-in-the-sand folly.

In 1990 the LS400 undercut the price of the nearest BMW/MBs by over 10k. They got in on price and ability. The LS400 was more reliable and almost as nice as the BMW/MB counterparts. But it had a massive ace up its sleeve...the price was so scary low (35k!) that people had to look.

This is the tactic Infiniti took with the G35. Offer 90%- 95% of the 3 series but at 5-7k lower. It's worked and the G35 has carved out a niche.

Will Lexus do this with the IS250/350? Indications are the IS250 will start at 30k. Stripped. No leather, no xenons, no moonroof. IS350 would probably be 34-36k (we'll know soon). As far as I can tell, to get xenon lights on the IS350 you must get the 3rd highest package and a moonroof is still an option. We know the cars will come with this stuff on lots so it's safe to say an IS350's gonna run over 38k msrp. I'm betting (given GS pricing differences between the 6 and 8) that the IS350 will start at 36-37k (just like the 330i). So I'm not expecting the IS350 to be less than a 330i.

Where's the value? The value proposition is what got Lexus where it is. Never forget that. Just like Hyundai, Lexus came up offering almost as much as the competition but for less money.

kdshapiro

Maybe some of us have different meaures of what makes a car worthwhile to us. Your metrics are different than my metrics. My metrics are different than C&Ds metrics. Stats does not tell the whole story and never has.

Sad that a giant conclusion has been drawn from one comparo and a car one can't even buy.

blueguydotcom

My 330i's been in the shop for about a week and in that time I've driven a rentals and borrowed my bro-in-law's 325i last night. After 5 days in a Sebring, my bro's 325i felt so dialed in! I wasn't a fan of his car until last night...

kdshapiro

Somtimes change is good.

oac

KD: you and I exchanged posts on the IS board and you prefered we bring it over here. Now that its here, you complain about it.

Stats does not tell the whole story and never has

I agree. However YOU initiated this discussion about the C&D comparo saying that Lexus fans are fuming and BMW fans don't seem to notice or care. So I tried to capture the essence of the comparo and argue that the new IS350, at least according to the comparo you pointed out, showed a vitural tie between both cars. That's it... But after debunking your assertions, you turn to the other kicker - stats don't tell the whole story. If you cannot argue facts why initiate a debate on one, eh ?

I am done...

idele

That's an interesting comment about MB executives in the early Lexus days. I was staying in a hotel in Germany in 1993 at which a meeting of MB executives was taking place. I was driving an LS400 at the time - a wonderful car. I mentioned this to one of the MB executives I chatted briefly with in the lobby. His attitude was one of polite disdain at even considering Lexus as competition. Now we see MB following the cheap to execute horsepower race strategy while Lexus pulls ahead with the new paradigm of hybrid synergy drives

blueguydotcom

I'll say. I miss my car so much that just about anything with a manual and no dive in corners feels like heaven.

bmwe90

Finally a rest from oac. And I was just getting fired up :surprise: . Does anyone know where I can get info on the Bimmer turbo that's supposed to come out?

kdshapiro

OAC: I have no idea what your talking about. Let me recap the things I have generally said across both boards:

1. I find the Lexus 350 appealing.
2. With gas prices estimated to be going to $4/gallon, Toyota has picked a lousy time introduce what is probably a gas sucking sports sedan. Unless you don't drive as intended, this thing will suck gas. You cannot have blazing acceleration and blazing gas mileage simultaneously.
3. There seems to "concerns" with the bias of the C&D toward BMW, seemingly having a "lesser" car take the #1 spot.
4. There is no doubt the engine is bigger on the IS, but that doesn't make it a better sports sedan.
5. BMW is not *dead*.
6. It's going to take a fair number of reviews to see where the IS350 fits in the pecking order. When the G35, it was the "king was dead". Not even close for BMW. It beat BMW in every metric. As more comparos were done different results began to emerge.
7. The 5.1 to 60 is impressive no doubt. I wouldn't want to try that with my car though.
8. The HP and gas sucking wars are not over, BMW is rumored to be working on a 3.5L twin turbo engine.

So if I'm complaining, what are you doing?

dfc3

>

Good point.... its a 2.5T. Having a designation of 2.5T and T5 on the same model S60 - makes it easy to make typos.... Volvo really wants to confuse people!

qbrozen

no doubt. and, seeing as how nobody caught it in the couple of pages of posts that followed, i think that proves your point. Well, that and the fact that volvo falls under the radar of most sporty sedan buyers (unfortunately, IMHO).

syswei

$35k sports sedans

BMW 330i finishes 1st with 213 points, edging out the IS350 with 212 points. 3rd place with 203 points, Infiniti G35, then Acura TL, Audi A4, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60R and Saab 9-2.

The IS350 smoked the others in acceleration, 0-60 in 5.1, next best being the TL and G35 at 5.9 sec.

I found the details on CL. Forgive me if this info has already been posted here, I don't frequent this forum.

johnny420

As for trannies, the DSG's got it all over BMW's notchy, balky, slow, binding 6 speeds.

Hey, Blueguy, I'm a happy TSX owner who loves running through the gears of my six speed. It's one of my favorite aspects of driving this car, that and the sharp handling.

I'm also nurturing a serious E90 jones (I challenge anyone here to read all of yours and Shipos posts on this and the 3 series board and not develop one :P ) and see it as my next car.

My question is about the BMW tranny. Are they really that bad? It'd be hard to go from a great tranny like the TSX's to one that's not so great.

Thanks

johnny420

states that while they really like the car overall, it falls short of its intention to compete with the 3 series bimmers, mostly because of its rather disconnected feel from the road, and lack of steering feedback.

They also mentioned that the engine , while powerful, is so quiet it's hard to hear except under hard acceleration. They also state that they felt the car had lost some of the edge of the IS300. Basically they are saying it's less of a drivers car than it needs to be to compete with the 3 series on those terms.

This all comes on the heels of a rather solid review of the E90. They had their nits to pick with it as well, but said its chassis makes up for a lot. Sounds like it's a very sharp-handling car. Can't wait to drive one.

Personally, I think the IS350 is a sharp-looking car, with a squat, muscular stance, but I can't understand why Lexus wouldn't offer a MT in a car they expect to compete with a drivers car like the E90.

Just my $.02 worth.

Johnny