Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

billyperks1

Dave- are you really serious about a c230 been better than a TL? Or are you just displaying ignorance here?

You gotta be kidding me, not even the c320 comes close to a TL in any category whatsoever.

My current car which is the previous generation TL Type S will run circles around both of these cars.

Now if you had said the C55 AMG- I will strongly agree with you.
Please do not mention the C320 and C230 in the same breath with the TL.

dave330i

"Dave- are you really serious about a c230 been better than a TL? Or are you just displaying ignorance here?"

I haven't driven the new ones, but wife own's a '00 3.2 TL and mom owns a '01 3.2 TL.

They accelerate from stop reasonably well, but if you're crusing at 60-70 mph, and want to pass you'll need to wait a sec for the car to respond.

Their handling is average at best. Take a 25 mph on/off ramp at 30-35 and you get all sort of body roll, and tire squeal.

Their braking is average at also. I need to brake quite a bit early vs. my car or I overshoot my turn.

They are good at taking you from point A to point B in comfort, but not much fun.

potemkin

I'm not going to insist that the C230 is a better car, but since the TL is FWD and the C230 isnt... I'd take the Merc' over the TL.

But that's just me.

nyccarguy

you must LOATHE driving your wife's car:)

edwardsf

Sorry Billy but i have to pile on here. I have extensively test driven the 3.2 S and the new TL and they both feel ponderous. Yes, they roar off the stoplight but I don't tend to gun it from a standstill. In the curves, any German sedan (including a Jetta) is a much more fun car than a TL. I just drove a new bottom of the line C240 and while supposedly lousy compared to the C230, it was much tighter than the TLs I drove. I tried to like the TL as I like Honda for many reasons. And I love the TSX as it is very tossable and fun. But the TL sporty? nah.

shanky

Just got delivery of the 7-speed automatic 2006 C-350 Luxury (ordered early sept)! Man! I am zapped like never before! Its all power and silken smoothness ! The interior looks very refined - much better than the BMW 3-series (and I already hate to let the kids in!)

Raced to 100mph effortlessly without any noise increase...there is a very solid feeling throughout the car. Easily took some corners at high speeds (sharp freeway exits), and the steeering feels so light and the car so nimble and stable that I may get into this bad habit!

U-turns has a very short radius and feels nice...The standard alloy wheels also look so great I decided against chrome..Have yet to try the touch-shift manual...

I bought it loaded with most options:
Lighting/xenon pkg (auto-levelling, huge and dazzling!)
Premium audio pkg (very good harmon-kardon logic 7)
sunroof pkg
split seats
rear air bags
dvd navigation pkg (excellent nav and POI-list!)
heated seats (butt warmers!)

I have a question though for the informed pundits on this forum - is it ok to push the car to its limits (speed, acceleration etc) in the initial break-in period? Or should I ease up?

pgsmith

What identifiers show you have a Harmon Kardon system. The only indicator I have found on mine is one logo on the left rear speaker (and the invoice). There is no indicator in the radio or any other speakers. I get no sound in the back. I'm trying to figure out if they put in the wrong tuner or just had a bad wiring job. (It will go in for repair soon).

shanky

As you said, the left rear speaker has the name on it, plus in the sound settings there is an option for Logic7 system (other settings are Speech, Standard, Default).

About your rear sound problem, are you sure the balance/fade setting is correct?

150mphclub

lucky you. i ordered mine on 9/29/05. they don't plan to build it until the middle of december. i am almost pissed off enough to head over to the lexus dealer.

potemkin

"...is it ok to push the car to its limits (speed, acceleration etc) in the initial break-in period?"

My advice: Consult your owner's manual and follow their recommendations.

I know, it's like waiting for Xmas, but I know you can do it. Of course, the moment you get past the break-in period: Test the rev-limiter.

apg3

For what it's worth, I caved in and traded my 2000 BMW 328i for the new IS 250 AWD. I was just not satisfied with the 3-series offered and could not justify the price difference.

blueguydotcom

For what it's worth, I caved in and traded my 2000 BMW 328i for the new IS 250 AWD. I was just not satisfied with the 3-series offered and could not justify the price difference.</I.

I'm guessing you mean an 06 325xi v. the IS250 AWD. to each his own.

lovemyclk

good for you...

dave330i

"you must LOATHE driving your wife's car:)"

TL isn't a bad car. It's a very comfortable car. I just don't consider it a performance sedan.

I end up driving it a lot on the weekends because my wife hates riding in my car.

nyccarguy

my sentiments exactly. My Best friend's wife drives a TL. He loves how quiet and smooth and conforatble it is. He would also trade it back for his sister's '02 325iA SP (turned back in on a lease) in a heartbeat. His sister got a G35X and after 6 months admits missing her BMW.

dave330i

It's funny I used to think my 330i SP was sporty and lots of fun, but once I started driving M Coupe, I found the 330i soft and boring.

jrock65

This is what another guy said.

"The information on a Japanese car magazine is introduced.
The next G carries new V6 engine 'FZ'. Probably it is called 'FZ37' (3.7liter 320-330hp ).
It is reported that a this 'turbo' version is carried in next GT-R.
A new style platform is used at the next G. This is reported for the front section to consist of aluminum."

I think dude is in Japan. Personally, I'm a bit skeptical about this new engine. There is no mention of it in the US press at all. But the VQ engine is going on 12 years old, so maybe the change is warranted.

Anyways, aluminum and weight savings is always welcome in a sport sedan.

If true,

320 hp V6, 6MT, aluminum body, $33,000 (?) .... Where do I sign up?

qbrozen

i certainly wouldn't bet on $33k.

merc1

Well either way we know Infiniti isn't going to let Lexus keep that hp advantage for long. I'd expect them to undercut Lexus in price too.

M

gordonwd

The Detroit News's Auto section yesterday had a comparison test between the 330i and IS350. (It was done by Paul & Anita Leinert -- maybe they are syndicated in other papers?) After rating the cars in several categories, they gave the win to the BMW, saying that although Lexus is aiming at the 3-series, the 3-series presents a "moving target" and has improved with the new E90.

The only category where the IS350 was a clear winner was the drivetrain, as they liked the added power and also the transmission (they compared automatics only). One interesting comment was that they thought the IS350's interior was "cold and Teutonic", where the 330i's was more "warm and inviting". So how's that for a turnabout? Lexus over-Germanized their car? :P They also gave the BMW extra points for features like rain-sensing wipers, adaptive headlights and taillights, etc.

Of course, a car comparison test that takes up just a few inches of newspaper column space is not very comprehensive, but I thought that their evaluation adds fuel to the fire.

al57

cant decide between TL and G35AWD,both have points to consider..i like price point of TL (No Nav)versus G35 AWD with premium package "C". G35 is more money,live in northeast,is AWD that necessary??What about possible style change for 2007,would hate to buy outdated car knowing big changes are coming,, Wife is not driving enthusiast,need reliability and something sporty,TL complaints of leather seating,vibrations,rattles and horriffic tires..How bad is this car in snow..car sizes are close,warranties,roadside etc are equal..I am a buyer,what about resale value after 5 years of use??All ideas are welcome..Looking for deal by end of year

podres

I am likely to buy a TL in the near future, and live in the Northeast, but FWD has nothing to do with it. I currently drive a RWD vehicle with all season tires and get around just fine (live in MA near the NH border).

I wouldn't choose on the basis of AWD or tires -- they are replacable. The TL vibrations and rattles that are mentioned on these boards are unsettling. I'd take that into consideration.

The TL is less of a racecar, and a bit more packed with features. It is a close call, though. I think the TL is a better all-around commuting vehicle. If I was driving mostly on windy country roads, the G35 might be more appealing.

kdshapiro

"AWD that necessary"

That's a question that will get you a lot of varied responses for sure. You don't need AWD, just like you don't really need snow tires. People like to point out the number of AWD/4WD in ditches when it starts snowing, and people also like to point out it doesn't help you stop.

That may be true, but it's stopping is not the issue when you are stuck in deep drifts and I've seen RWD, RWD with snows and FWD stuck over the last several years, as well as the same self said vehicles wrapped around telephone poles and run into ditches.

This is my pecking order of best to least-best.
- 4WD with low range, with or without snows
- AWD with or without snows
- FWD snows
- RWD snows
- FWD
- RWD

Good luck with your decision.

mnrep2

The only other point to consider is the hassle of changing snow tires on the TL Vs. leaving the all-season tires on the G35x. You still have very good traction with the all-season rubber and AWD. I have driven AWD after an 8" snow fall to get home and have found that AWD is extremely useful in that situation. All cars in my household are now AWD.

As mentioned earlier, AWD will not help you stop any quicker than FWD.

aaargh

I had the exact same decision to make 18 months ago. I went with the TL because it has the best mix of performance and luxury. The G35x is a bit too small for me and its interior/features are well below the TLs. The TL performs well enough for me.

As for the TL quality, you hear more on this board about it because people with problems let everybody know about it. I (and I believe the majority) do not have 'bad' problems. That being said, I do notice a slight vibration on by '04 automatic transmission at around 50-55 MPH when 5th gear kicks in. This is a legitimate problem. My dashboard has not faded. The leather has stretched a little, but it does not look bad.

Lastly, if you get the non-navi TL (comes with the horrendous Bridgestone El-42s), you WILL want to get snow tires. I did and it makes a big difference. Price that (and the costs of changing them twice a year) into your equation.

Jeff - A Happy TL Owner. :shades:

dave330i

"The only other point to consider is the hassle of changing snow tires on the TL Vs. leaving the all-season tires on the G35x."

The other point to consider is the hassle of carrying around few hundred pounds of ballast in the form of AWD system, weaker suspension system, and worse milage.

laurasdada

Hi, Al: Boston area resident here, TL owner. I second what most of the posts after yours have pointed out. I chose the TL over the G35x also, because in favor of the TL:

Superior interior/exterior style and interior materials.
Smoother/quieter ride.
Not having the added complexity/weight of AWD to carry around 365 days/yr.
Better mpg.
And, I suppose, a few $$$ less expensive, although that was not a major factor as I was shopping a broad price range. But a factor...

After almost 11 months, no vibrations. One rattle, but only when the sunroof is in the "vent" position (which the dealer said they fixed at A1 service; they did not). Leather looks fine, not brand new, but fine. Dash does seem to have a bit of the discoloration issue, but cleaning it helps.

The tires? Now that's my biggest complaint. They are terrible in the snow. And I believe they flat spot. I survived last winter, but it was a challenge. I've always driven FWD into Maine, New Hampster & Vermont to ski and in 25 years I probably would have apprecitated AWD a few times, very few times. For me, AWD is a nicety, not a necessity. TL with the Bridgestone's is the first FWD I don't feel totally snow-confident in. And it's not the car, it's the tires.

So, overall, diggin' the TL! Either is a fine choice. TL is more luxury/sport, G is sport/luxury. TL will probably be less expensive to operate overall, imho.

Good luck, keep us posted.

kki000

I made the same decision about a month ago, went with the G.
To me the g35x had enuff luxury but won me over with how it drove. I dont think anyone will question that the tl has the much better interior, but i felt the g was good enuff and underneath it all, was the better car.

No offense but the tl is a super accord, both good and bad. It just felt too close to the camry type cars i was trying 2 get out of. Dont get me wrong, if the tl had awd i would have snatched it up in a second, but the g just felt better on the road. I test drove each one over 4 times so i had a good feel for each car, and there are times when i sometimes think i should have gone with the tl, esp when im stuck in traffic and the nicer interior with more gadgets would have been nice. But as soon as i start moving in the g, i know i made the right choice.

BTW for me the tl was more expensive to lease, even though it stickers much less than a fully loaded g35x. MF and residuals are padded by Nissan, much more than Acura. The last thing i was gonna do was give up awd and pay more for the car.

mnrep2

The other point to consider is the hassle of carrying around few hundred pounds of ballast in the form of AWD system, weaker suspension system

Weaker suspension as compared to what? :surprise: I don't know what that means. The G35x sits a little higher than the standard rwd G35, but that is so you can go better in deep snow, when your 330i or a TL, are spinning their wheels because their suspension is too low

kdshapiro

"when your 330i"

Yes, but not the 330xi.

mnrep2

We were not talking about the 330xi, I was responding to the comment from Dave330i, that the G35x had a weaker suspension. I was asking him, compared to what is it weaker?

dave330i

"Weaker suspension as compared to what?"

G35x has a weaker suspension compaired to G35.

AWD is marketing at its best (or worst), since most of the people getting it don't need it.

"The G35x sits a little higher than the standard rwd G35, but that is so you can go better in deep snow, when your 330i or a TL, are spinning their wheels because their suspension is too low"

Tell me, how often are you expecting deep snow each year? Maybe 1, 5, 10, or 15 days? For those once in a blue moon days, you're willing to sacrifice performace the rest of the year?

sdiver68

It has gotten to the point where I firmly believe anyone disparaging AWD has not owned a performance rear-wheel biased AWD system. Porsche, the world's most prestigious sports car maker offers AWD on their 911...and set the world on fire with the AWD 959 in '86. The Skyline GT-R is legendary...The G35X's system is derived from that experience.

And in case you wonder from what experience I speak, I have a Top 10 Road Racing plate hanging on my wall, and dislike unnescessary weight as much as the next racer. On a road car in most climates in the US, AWD is a great feature despite the extra weight and has numerous advantages other than just deep snow.

mnrep2

dave330i awd is actually very useful for driving in snow and ice. You don't experience that in sunny CA much, but in the Northeast or the midwest awd is not a marketing gimmick. AWD is not just useful in high snow, but hilly icy driveways, left turns across busy streets, you get the idea. AWD offers a substantial traction advantage. For street driving I don't think there is a large advantage from the rwd g35 to the X. Especially for 90% of the drivers out there. If your talking Auto Cross or track performance, then there are advantages to a smaller lighter rwd package. Calling the standard g35x suspension softer than the "sport" G35 suspension is a reasonable comparison.

However, I was responding to Al57 who is comparing the FWD TL Vs. the g35 and asking for help with his decsion. In snowy regions, my opinion is that the AWD g35x offers handling advantages over the FWD TL. The x is primarily rwd, and does not suffer from torque steer like the TL. In the end buy what you like not what someone on the internet thinks you should buy

dave330i

"It has gotten to the point where I firmly believe anyone disparaging AWD has not owned a performance rear-wheel biased AWD system."

I wasn't trying to disparage AWD system. I disagree with people who automatically assume they need AWD because it snows on occasion.

"Porsche, the world's most prestigious sports car maker offers AWD on their 911...and set the world on fire with the AWD 959 in '86."

And yet they only offer GT2 & GT3 in RWD only.

"On a road car in most climates in the US, AWD is a great feature despite the extra weight and has numerous advantages other than just deep snow."

I believe right tire is a better choice than AWD vs. RWD vs. FWD for most drivers.

If you can get better performance with AWD, great. I prefer RWD, and I'll stick with it.

dave330i

"dave330i awd is actually very useful for driving in snow and ice. You don't experience that in sunny CA much, but in the Northeast or the midwest awd is not a marketing gimmick."

I lived in Northeast until 2000 without AWD just fine.

"AWD is not just useful in high snow, but hilly icy driveways, left turns across busy streets, you get the idea. AWD offers a substantial traction advantage."

Again, how often will you expericen bad weather? Even if it's 60 days, that's still 300+ days where RWD will be better than AWD.

"For street driving I don't think there is a large advantage from the rwd g35 to the X. Especially for 90% of the drivers out there."

If you're interested in a performance sedan, you should be able to feel the difference between RWD & AWD.

"However, I was responding to Al57 who is comparing the FWD TL Vs. the g35 and asking for help with his decsion. In snowy regions, my opinion is that the AWD g35x offers handling advantages over the FWD TL."

I guess I should have been more clear. I was trying to get Al57 to consider G35 as an alternative to G35x or TL.

"In the end buy what you like not what someone on the internet thinks you should buy."

Very true.

mnrep2

I guess I should have been more clear. I was trying to get Al57 to consider G35 as an alternative to G35x or TL.

Al57 WAS comparing the rwd g35 to the fwd TL in his post. I was suggesting he consider the x. Sometimes, I think we all rush to type an answer with our not so humble opinions, before really reading what the question was.

A very good way to compare fwd tl to the g35x is to drive both, especially on snow covered roads this can help you make an educated decision End of my not so humble opinion

kdshapiro

"Maybe 1, 5, 10, or 15 days? "

To that way of thinking it's like saying, it's hot only 2 months of the year, why do I need air-conditioning?

The answer is - if I need it once, it already paid for itself.

"I lived in Northeast until 2000 without AWD just fine."

I also lived in Sunny CA for a brief stint and admitedly AWD doesn't have much of an advantage there. But in the Northeast in the last 10 years I lost track of the number of times I limped along and was concerned about getting stuck in very deep snow. With AWD getting stuck is no longer a concern unless one does something very, very stupid.

shipo

"With AWD getting stuck is no longer a concern unless one does something very, very stupid."

The same could also be said for any decent car with a good set of winter tires. Many choose to change the odds by opting for an All-Season equiped car with AWD (some things get better, some get worse), while others are willing to spend enough to changed the odds even more by opting for AWD and winter tires.

Which is best? It depends upon where you live, how you drive and the conditions that you are willing to drive in.

Consider this; three winters ago my California born and raised wife had never driven in snow in a RWD car in her life (although she did have a little FWD experience). That winter I broke my right leg which prohibited me from driving a car with a manual transmission, and as such the situation required us to swap cars (I just positioned my casted right leg over in the passengers footwell of her car and drove left footed). Wouldn't you know it, that winter here in southern New Hampshire Mother Nature threw 114" of snow at us forcing her to drive my winter tire shod 530i back and forth to work (round trip nearly 70 miles). Through it all she never got stuck, never was unable to make it to work or home, in fact, she never had a single problem, so much so that she threatened to break my other leg when I got out of my cast so that she could keep driving the 5er, snow or no snow.

With that in mind, I continually have to ask "Why???" when folks insist that they NEED an AWD equipped car "because they live in the north east." Sorry, not buying.

Best Regards,
Shipo

laurasdada

"...so much so that she threatened to break my other leg when I got out of my cast so that she could keep driving the 5er, snow or no snow."

LOL. Does she have any other reasons to want to keep you hobbling?

"With that in mind, I continually have to ask "Why???" when folks insist that they NEED an AWD equipped car "because they live in the north east" Sorry, not buying."

Agreed, as a life-long New Englander/skier. FWD/all-season tires and a modicum of intelligence/skill/experience when driving in snow (not that I reserve my intelligence for the snow. Or so I believe?) has kept me going and arriving safe and sound lo these many years. A Flatlander in the Green/White mountains of beautiful Maine, New Hampster and Vermont.

AWD is a nicety, not a necessity. But it will never cease to amaze me the number of drivers that believe AWD overrules the laws of physics, e.g. Subaru Outback wagon + snow + excessive speed (after having tailgated me and illegally passed) + sharp left-handed curve, Rte. 103 into Ludlow, Vt. = Subaru firmly planted in a snow bank on the Town Green! I did stop to see if all were OK. Besides the Subie, they were... And I continued to my destination in my FWD Acura without incident.

starman98

I test drive 7 cars recently I am looking at here is how I would rate them:

1. Acura TL
2. Lexus IS 350
3. Infiniti G35
4. BMW 325i
5. Cadillac CTS
6. Mercedes C Class
7. Lincoln Zephyr

bplayer

Neat. Care to expand on your rating mehod, or pros and cons.

kdshapiro

"The same could also be said for any decent car with a good set of winter tires."

We just disagree on this point. With RWD with snows or without snows you slip, the DSC or whatever kicks in and engine power gets cut if needed. If you don't have DSC, tailspin.

With AWD/4WD depending on the system of course, traction gets transferred to the front wheels. It's simply more secure.

Besides being more secure IMO -of course, I don't want to swap rims and tires.

shipo

Absolutely agree. No car, regardless of how capable, is a substitute for the matter between the ears. Thinking back on an old IT Help Desk industry acronym "PEBKAC" (Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair), I might humbly suggest that we might want to coin a new acronym for drivers that stuff AWD and 4WD equipped cars into snowbanks (or worse). Hmmm, how about "PEBSAPOS" (Problem Exists Between Seat And Pedals Or Steering-wheel).

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo

"We just disagree on this point. With RWD with snows or without snows you slip, the DSC or whatever kicks in and engine power gets cut if needed. If you don't have DSC, tailspin."

Well, that seems to be a fairly common belief around here, however, I drove any number of RWD equipped cars through LOTS of snow in the days before ABS, DSC, TCS or any of the alphabet soup electronic nannies were applied to the generally affordable automobile industry, and I never "tailspinned". Errr, unintentionally that is. ;-)

True, if you simply mash the throttle without regard to the conditions around you then "tailspin" is the least of your worries. The fact is that there are many millions of drivers who've driven non-nannied RWD cars billions of miles in wintry conditions without even a single tailspin.

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo

Thinking about my last post a little more, the only car that I've ever had an unintentional spin in was in my 1979 VW Scirocco. Of course that was on dry pavement and I was pushing a little hard.

Best Regards,
Shipo

brightness04

70miles commute on highways don't count for squat because both NH and MA are very diligent about ploughing highways, and the ramps are always very well designed. I drove 200+ miles from Boston to NYC more than a decade ago in an old BMW 5 series (no DSC or LSD) with bald all-season tires in a snow storm . . . when I stopped for a bathroom break and a sandwich lunch, the headlights were buried by the snow on the bumper when I came out. I should not have done that except for youthful inexperience/bravado and the snow storm was sudden . . . still I made it without incident or even much wheel slippage at all simply because the road was very well salted even as the snow coming down rapidly.

Half a decade later, when I had to drive in the boonie back country, it was an entirely different matter. The back roads of the hilly parts of New England most certainly need AWD because the local authorities don't plough for days at a time!

AWD is a nicety, not a necessity.

AWD is certainly more necessary than either luxury or performance, or the sedan part for that matter. Can we just move on from this religiosity against AWD??

sdiver68

Interesting dichotomy you present, Dave 330i...

You advocate winter tires...despite the fact they will need to be on the car from Dec-March even in the Mid-West...and have horrible performance in the dry. So basically, you advocate turning you performance sedan into an econobox for 4-5 months out of the year instead of AWD?

Then you say "If you're interested in a performance sedan, you should be able to feel the difference between RWD & AWD"

I'm sorry, but this just does not hold up in my experience. Ever go to a PCA or BMW track event? Ever notice how 80% of the cars out there are (dangerous) rolling obstacles? Ever go to an autocross and find 1/2 the drivers turning in times slower than what I could achieve on my pit scooter? These are people who are not only interested in performance, but trying to do something to improve theirs, and they make up, what, maybe 3% of drivers of performance cars? And THESE are the people who are going to notice a couple of hundred pounds on the road at a safe 80% of their ability?

brightness04

And yet they only offer GT2 & GT3 in RWD only

In case you did not know, GT2 and GT3 are offered in RWD only because the respective race cars are RWD. Why are the race cars RWD? Because AWD has been banned from these races due to the "unfair advantage"! In other words, when AWD were allowed, the RWD entrants had no realistic hope of winning the races! When driving in the snow by myself, I want every "unfair advantage" there is.

brightness04

The fact is that there are many millions of drivers who've driven non-nannied RWD cars billions of miles in wintry conditions without even a single tailspin.

Another fact is that hundreds of thousands of old RWD cars have gone off the road or flipped over in snow conditions. The success of FWD cars in snow racing in the 50's and 60's, and the success and ultimately the banning of AWD cars due to their "unfair advantage" from car races should have made it plenty clear that RWD platform is not ideal when surface traction is limited. As much as I love RWD cars, I find it perplexing why some other RWD afficienadoes find it necessary to argue against simple physics.