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Ferrari-the Ultimate classic (Ferrari Lovefest Topic)

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  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I appreciate what you are saying regarding the uniqueness of the Ferrari compared to the Porsche 911. But your statements....

    But the sound, the looks and feel of driving the 328 really make the 911 irrelevant.

    IMHO, someone would have to smoking something to pay six figures for any flavor 911, when there are ROWS of them on used car lots and unless you read a lot of car mags they all look the same.


    ....suggest that you are more concerned about appearances than reality. The old 328 couldn't match the performance of my former (limited production, 9,000 rpm redline) $32k Honda S2000, let alone any model 997 or the Cayman you are considering for a daily driver. And, for less than $100k, the 911S Cab gives you comparable or better performance than a $175k Ferrari 360 Spider in a car that you can drive 30k miles in 2 years, not 20 years.

    The fact is, that your statements are relevant to you, and mine to me. And BOTH the Ferrari 328 and Porsche 911 are to be commended for being the pinnacle of their respective segments within the sports car world. So, be assured that, other than as a friendly rebuke to your post, I will never show disrespect for Ferrari. They do what they do better than any other manufacturer, period. By the same token, I would hope that you can see why the 911S isn't "irrelevant" to me and last time I checked, I wasn't smoking anything.

    P.S. I have the $2,400 Porsche sport exhaust on my 911S and, hate as I might to admit it, it sounds great too, with 0 increase in the official horsepower rating
  • billymaybillymay Posts: 59
    Hey, this board is too quiet to brush off any posts... ;)

    You're right, my experience with these cars is much more subjective and far less stopwatch/g-meter focused.

    I wouldn't compare a 308/328 to any 2006 model year sports cars on the track. I think my point, clumsily made, was that in the sports-car-experience-per-dollar ratio (which includes things like speed, visual and aural impact, and financial considerations like depreciation) is that a new 911 is a "bad deal" compared to some of Porsche and Ferrari's past offerings.

    Obviously I still appreciate Porsches. The value equation of the new models eludes me, though.
  • I wouldn't compare a 308/328 to any 2006 model year sports cars on the track. I think my point, clumsily made, was that in the sports-car-experience-per-dollar ratio (which includes things like speed, visual and aural impact, and financial considerations like depreciation) is that a new 911 is a "bad deal" compared to some of Porsche and Ferrari's past offerings.

    O.K., I'll bite on that one.

    I went through a tough decision to trun down a very good deal on a friends Ferrari 360 and have elected to order a new 911 S coupe instead.

    What's the "bad deal" when the 911 S is more than capable of being driven daily at 15,000 miles per year and doesn't require an oil change until 20k miles? The 360's 30k major service would run $7,500 at the dealership. Worse yet, any relatively significant repair could take the car out of commission for 4-5+ weeks. The original owner did drive his 360 on a regular basis, but it depreciated substantially as a result. The dealer deducted $40,000 from the trade in value because it had 30k miles instead of the "expected" 5-8k. The owner offered it to me for less still, just to spite the dealer. They since made up and he's happy with his new 430.

    The Ferrari 328 is a beautiful classic that looks great standing still. But to compare it to a new 997 and somehow conclude that the 997 is a "bad deal" suggests that you are willing to spend a lot of time admiring your 328 rather than driving it.

    There really should be no comparison of ANY classic exotic to a current model 997. They serve significanly different purposes. A nearly 20 year old 328 is no more of a good daily driver than a 997 is an impressive garage queen. But reverse those roles, and both should serve their purpose very well. I'd take a 328 over a 911 for 1,500 miles of Sunday driving.

    P.S. I owned one of the 450 original BMW M1's. Wish I still had it. But I wouldn't be driving it a fraction of the miles I'll put on the 911, if at all.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I'd take a 328 over a 911 for 1,500 miles of Sunday driving.

    In the spirit of compromise, I would agree. The old 911's don't do much for me visually. And the 328 can still turn heads on a dark night.
  • billymaybillymay Posts: 59
    True enough. I have other vehicles to drive daily, and in that light a Ferrari fits my needs perfectly. I'm OK trading a lot of practicality for driving something rare, because as a weekend car it needn't go 15K miles annually, and if it's in the shop a few days that's OK. (4-5 weeks?! The 30K major service on mine only took 1 week and that's for a 19-year old car...)

    I thought, however, that one of the earlier posts missed the point with all the number crunching regarding Porsches and Ferraris. It reminded me of the "Evo, M3 or 355?" posts I see on other sites, which must leave 355 owners scratching their heads.

    I would say that Porsche buyers often make these sensible calculations about downtime, oil change intervals and such, while Ferrari buyers don't. My brother sold his 911 and is hesitating on an Aston or another exotic after seeing the shop receipts. I saw stacks of Ferrari shop receipts before I owned one, said "ouch" and then bought anyway. Likely nearly every 360 owner knew what it cost to maintain the car before they signed on.

    There's more than a bit of "heart over mind" involved here (seeing as this is the Ferrari Lovefest topic...) To stretch the analogy more than it might deserve, it's a bit like saying the Mona Lisa is far more expensive than quality wallpaper.

    In some sense, we feel we got a "good deal" due to the intangibles.

    At any rate congrats on your new 997. They are superb cars, period. If you ever need a carsitter, my references are top notch. Enjoy it.
  • tsaupe1tsaupe1 Posts: 166
    Billymay, glad to hear you're enjoying the car. Without getting into the the Porsche/Ferrari thing to heavily I'll just put in my 2 cents by saying they are both great marques with very different appeal. I can't think of any two marques that are more polar opposites in approach to the same problem. Obviously, for me, I love Ferraris and appreciate Porsches and respect the reverse opinion.

    Spiritinthesky, I know 328s that are pretty much daily drivers. Before my commute became an hour each way, mine was a daily car in good weather. When it isn't pouring rain, I still take it to work a couple of times a week and generally at least have it out for a few miles daily. There are a number of Ferrari models I wouldn't drive as much, but 328s are solid, drivable cars.

    Anyway, congrats to both of you. Enjoy your cars!
  • zak1964zak1964 Posts: 2
    I am a Porsche enthusiast who is looking to make the jump to Ferrari. I am looking for advice on the 360 Coupe - what to look for in buying a pre-owned 360, what I should expect to pay (2001 - 2003 model year), as well as how best to source a pre-owned 360 (delaer or private). I have been to my local Ferrari dealer on a few occassions and found them to be arrogant and generally unhelpful.

    Also, any advice anyone can provide on the 430 Coupe would also be helpful, especially what I should expect to pay for a 2005/2006 version, and how best to locate one.

    I am new to the Ferrari message board and appreciate any advice that you may have.
  • Earlier this year, I came very clsoe to purchasing a Ferrari 360 coupe from a friend who has since received his new 430.

    Frankly, I'm glad I didn't. The 360 is a very nice car, without a doubt. However, the 430 is a enormous jump in performance for a nominal increase in price. But a bigger issue than performance is daily driveability - and that's an issue for me with both models, as my prior posts indicate. Part of the reason I could have gotten the 360 at a relatively good price was that the dealership insulted my friend with a low-ball trade offer because his 360 was considered a "high mileage" car. At a whopping 28,000 miles in nearly 4 years.

    If you are seriously interested in a 430, I would suggest getting on a dealer list for a new one. Another business associate paid MSRP ($175k +/-) for a 430 Coupe, Yellow/Black 6-speed manual. He was originally told it would take 2 years, he had the car less than 1 year after placing a deposit. He could sell it for a $30,000 to $50,000 premium today (the dealer currently has a 430 F1 Spider with 800 miles for $60,000 over MSRP, but it is "used" so they can freely charge whatever the market will bear). You should be able to find a reputable dealer that will stick to MSRP pricing for a new car ordered to your specs. I'm not sure what current wait times are. I had been talking to Ferrari of Washington (DC) some time back. The 6-speed had a shorter wait than an F1 and a Coupe had a shorter wait than a Spider.

    Me, I decided to go with Porsche and am expecting delivery of my 2007 911 Turbo (switched from 911 S) in October/November. I epect at this time next year it will be turning 10,000 miles on the odometer.

    Good luck.
  • chile96chile96 Posts: 330
    "Anyone reading this who is wavering between a Porsche and a Ferrari needs to actually drive both. They exist in two different universes."

    I completely agree and is THE reason why I have both :shades:
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,643

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,057
    Give a call to Michael Sheehan in LA. Website is www.ferraris-online.com. He's highly opinionated but he knows Ferraris inside and out, also races them, and he's no romantic about them---he's very sober and he'll give you advice that will allow you to make an informed decision IMO.

    Prices for any used modern Ferrari are HEAVILY dependent on:

    1. Mileage. Miles that are "nothing" to a Porsche's value can be crippling to a Ferrari's value. Anything over 30,000 miles and the depreciation curve gets very steep.

    2. Service records. Not what the owner SAYS, but actual records of services done. No records = much lower value and much lower resale

    3. Car's known history. Do NOT rely on CARFAX to tell you if the Ferrari you are thinking of buying wasn't wrapped around a pole. It's a good first start, but you should be able to trace the car's history from owner to owner and be able (hopefully) to interrogate the owner or the owner's representative about the car.

    4. Inspection! Even something as seemingly minor as an oil leak can translate into a large repair bill. Remember, fan belts are $100 bucks a pop on these cars, and brakes and rotors all around, or a new clutch---that can sting. So a thorough inspection is money well well spent.

    There is no used Ferrari shortage last time I looked. So take your time and talk to people who know these cars.

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  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,643
    I hope not but I was struck by the relative paucity of Italian Exotica at the Phoenix/Scottsdale auctions this week. Shelbys of all kinds abounded but I saw perhaps three or four Ferraris on the block. :confuse:

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,057
    Wrong place to find Ferraris -- at Scottsdale. Besides, buying a modern Ferrari at auction is pretty reckless unless you actually know the car. There's lots of shady goings-on at these auctions..."the waters are filled with sharks".

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,057
    I've just posted some photos and comments on the Ferrari Enzo that was part of a collection I appraised recently.

    http://www.carspace.com/mr_shiftright

    If you haven't joined carspace yet, please do and let me know when you're "on" and we can link up there and swap Ferrari photos.

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  • Good advice, although 30,000 miles on a 360 is lot different than 30,000 miles on a Daytona.

    Depending on which Ferrari you're looking for, Steve Barney at Sport Auto in NC might be a better bet than Sheehan. Sheehan is the man if you need a 250 SWB for Pebble Beach. Steve's the guy if you want a Ferrari to actually drive.

    And belts and hoses aren't bad, in my experience. I just replaced a $9 coolant hose. However the labor to install a new timing belt can involve engine removal, holy water and a blessing from the pope.

    But there's nothing like a Ferrari. I've all but forgotten about my ex-911, BMW and Benz.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,057
    Yep, that is a fact.....there is nothing like a Ferrari, which is why people put up with them...you can't duplicate the experience, period.

    I have to say though, that the Enzo seemed a bit "tame" in terms of ease of driving and sound...I'm sure the car can go way faster than my capabilities, but still, it's such a gentleman compared to the older Ferraris.

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  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,643
    A little late for this aren't we? The Turkish GP was months ago and in fact the 2007 F-1 season is over with Kimi Raikkonnen of Ferrari capturing the WDC and Ferrari taking the Constructor's Championship, thanks to McLaren losing all their points as a result of the court decision in the Stepneygate scandal.

    Raikkonnen's WDC is subject to another court decision on McLaren's protest following the Brazilian GP. It's as much about lawyer's and judges as it is about drivers and engineers. ;)

    BTW your link is bad.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • I need help for a business project identifying this vehicle. A colleague suggested Ferrari but I cannot verify. Anybody out there who can identify this vehicle? I don't see a way to attach the image in this field (adding a discussion) so please look for an image in my next post).
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,643
    Surelet us have a look at it, we can probably tell if it's a Ferrari.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • Thanks. I circulated the photo at work and someone identified it as a TVR Chimaera. All I had in the photo was the front lamp and a little bit of hood. But that make and model checked out and so I've got what I need. Thanks.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,057
    For those dying of curiosity, here's a photo of one. Doesn't look very Ferrari-esque to me, more like a knock off of a Dodge Viper:

    image

    Probably if you just saw the headlights and not the rather awkward parking light arrangement and the rear of the front fender, you might think Ferrari

    Not bad looking...a little fussy....

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  • I am planning to buy Ferrari 360 maybe 2004 or 2003 model, i want to know if someone knows in dollar amount if possible how much its costs for normal service or oil change. I just want to make sure that i am making a right decision and have enough funds to service it.
    Bactium
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,057
    edited August 2010
    Well that would depend a lot on *past* service history and the mileage on the car--but if you want a very rough estimate of maintenance costs, probably $1.50 per mile is about right.

    You should consult with a Ferrari shop prior to purchase---first of all, you're going to need to locate one *before* you buy the car, since without a reputable Ferrari facility, you are out in the cold. Last thing you want is someone "claiming" to be a Ferrari mechanic, without the proper training and tools.

    Once the shop has laid out for you what to expect in terms of your future *major* services (usually Ferrari requires a big service at 30K, which will cost $3,000 to $6000 dollars). Many sellers of used Ferraris like to bail out just before these major services are due---leaving YOU with no chair to sit on once the music stops.

    Also you'll need to have the job give the car a thorough going over prior to purchase.

    Keep in mind also that high mileage Ferraris suffer enormous depreciation, and some Ferrari people contend that a 60,000 mile Ferrari is worth no more than a parts car.

    So you'd best do your homework not only on service costs, but on the current market price for 360s as it relates to the mileages on the car. The rule is "whatever gets you into a Ferrari cheaper, will come back to haunt you when you service or sell".

    Modern Ferraris can be wonderful, practical, reliable automobiles, but you do have to go in with eyes open. If you don't buy the right car, and be really fussy, you can end up with a ruinous purchase.

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  • Im looking to see if anyone would estimate the value of my car. Its a 1994 348 spider , pristine , with unheard of 2400 miles.., Any help is appreciated
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,057
    edited September 2010
    hard to say exactly without reviewing service records (low miles on a Ferrari are not necessarily a good thing) but something like $40K--$55K seems about right in today's market as a starting point. If it's been kept up and refreshed, that's good (keep all your receipts). If it's been sitting dormant for ten years, that's not so good with regards to value.

    Here's a good comp, with 18,000 miles, listed for $41,000. Hope that helps.

    348 Spider on eBay

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  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,643

    I went to several of the Scottsdale Auto Auctions this week, purely as a spectator. There were lots of spectacular and rare cars there and plenty of Ferraris both old and new.

    Yesterday I had a look at this one>

    The photo does not do the car justice, it was just gorgeous and looking at the year of manufacture, 1998 I could not help but think "Has it really been 15 years since they made a really good-looking Ferrari"?

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,057
    edited January 19

    Pretty car but you probably don't want one---they had a lot of teething problems. A 360 is mo' bettah and much less expensive to service. An engine rebuilt on a 355 can run you $40,000, no problem, which is 2/3rds the value of the car.

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  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,643

    A Ferrari 250GT California LWB Spider sold for $8.8 million @ the RM Auction in Scottsdale last week. The huge price was no surprise to experts who consider "Enzo era" Ferraris the cream of the vintage car market.

    A few years ago, Ferrari decided to use the storied California name for a new model which IMO was a huge mistake. If you had it would you spend almost $ 9million on this>

    ...or this?>

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,057

    they had a lot of engine troubles with the new California.

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