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Toyota Tundra vs. Chevrolet Silverado

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  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    Well, some clarification:

    First, I'd like to see the links; particularly the link indicating that Toyota Import sales grew 37% in ONE YEAR. Since Toyota sales in the U.S. were up 'only' 12% for 2006 over 2005, I'm at a loss trying to figure out how the # of vehicles they imported grew by 37%? The only way for this to happen would be if the # of vehicles they produced domestically went DOWN; yet they expanded their U.S. operations in 2006. Something doesn't add up with your figures.....

    Second, usually Automotive News deals with DOMESTIC production, and not US production (Domestic includes Candian). So, are those really U.S. production numbers or simply North American production numbers?

    Third, I don't think anyone is debating that GM produces more cars and trucks in the U.S. than Toyota. So if the entire meat of your argument is that Toyota doesn't employ as many Americans as GM then, YES, you are absolutely 100% correct. Yip yip yip yahoo.....guess what, we don't employ as many farmers now as we did in 1900 either. Is that necessarily bad for the U.S.?

    Speaking personally, I'll still try to correct as many erroneous statements of 'fact' as I can on this subject. And when someone presents a 'fact' that Tundra truck beds are built in Mexico (and this would be 'bad'? Better check the country of manufacturer for that Avalanche....) when, in FACT, the factory in Mexico produces truck beds for the Tacoma, then I'll call'em on it.

    But this thread is about the Tundra vs. the Silverado. As such, perhaps we can discuss JUST the Tundra and the Silverado without diving into the 'import vs. domestic' cesspool.

    Question: is the Silverado a better truck because of it's qualities as a TRUCK or because GM is headquartered in America? Is the Tundra an inferior truck because of it's qualities as a TRUCK or because Toyota is headquartered in Japan?

    Don't bother answering; but GM better figure out pretty damn fast that what counts to more and more of the public is the intrinsic qualities of it's vehicles, and NOT what country GM has it's mailing address...
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    I'd fire your friend the service manager. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Musky,

    I really want a piece of the action. ;) I will smoke your rice burner like a Swisher Sweet dipped in Kerosene with a Sierra Denali ;) You won't be LMAO, after pull out a box of puffs. :D

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    maple, good catch pal. ;)

    Rocky
  • First off youv'e never driven a Tundra, IMO it looks 10x better than the Silverado, the Silverado only looks good in picture, but in reality it's all plastic. Oh and your incorrect, the Tundra is not only built in America but it has American parts in it. The interior in this truck is also good. You've just never seen it in person. I like the Silverado too, I like all full size pickups I don't care of the brand or anything like that all I care about is quality.

    It's like the saying never judge a book by it's cover, and right now your judging the Tundra for what is looks on paper.
  • Let’s talk about traction and not trash, for a change.

    There are basically three types of differentials: open, limited slip, and locking.

    With an ‘open’ differential, in a poor traction situation 100% of the power goes to the wheel with the LEAST traction and only one wheel will spin. Unfortunately, the wheel with the most traction will get no power. The result is that you can easily get stuck. In reality, a 4WD with two open differentials is actually only a 2WD - one front wheel and one rear wheel.

    The second type of rear differential, ‘limited slip’, is just what it says. When the wheel with the least traction spins, a set of little clutches inside the differential housing tighten up and engage, sending partial power to the wheel with the most traction. The amount of power going to that wheel varies with the system, but it probably averages around 50% or maybe less, depending on the condition of those little clutches. So, the result in a poor traction situation (mud, ice, a slippery boat ramp) is that the wheel with the LEAST traction spins and the wheel with the most traction gets SOME power. It’s better than an ‘open’ differential, but still not an optimal situation. Plus, as the vehicle gets older, those little clutches wear just like brake pads or a manual transmission clutch disc. (After all, they’re not very big – they have to fit inside the differential housing along with all the other stuff like the ring and pinion gears, spider gears, axle shafts, etc.) As the clutches wear out, less and less power is able to go to the wheel with the most traction. The traction when the vehicle is new is the best it will ever be because of the clutch wear. In reality, a 4WD with rear limited slip and an open front diff is a 2-1/2 WD when new, and becoming less over time.

    The ‘locking’ differential is superior. When a wheel spins due to loss of traction, it sends 100% power to both wheels regardless of which wheel has the most traction. It uses a robust set of gears inside, not little clutches that wear out. So, it offers the best traction and it doesn’t diminish with time like a ‘limited slip’ differential. The 4WD with a rear locker and an open front diff is really a 3WD, and stays that way forever.

    With a 2WD, subtract 1 from each of the above figures.

    Limited slip and lockers are used almost exclusively in rear differentials. They can be used in the front, but they make steering the vehicle a bit dicey. The driver has to pay constant attention so that the steering wheel is not jerked out of his hands. With a front locker it helps to have strong hands and forearms. People who go ‘rock crawling’ sometimes put lockers up front. For the rest of us it’s not needed.

    So let’s recap:
    Lockers are the best and the most durable.
    Limited slip is second best, offering some improvement in traction over the ‘open’ differential, esp. when the vehicle is new. But it’s a distant second best compared to a locker. Open is the least effective.

    BTW, I’ve run out of traction MANY times while offroading. I’ve often been in situations where I thought “Dang, I wish I had a locker here.” This occurs frequently in deep snow, or muddy conditions on side slopes. The downhill rut is full of soft mud, but the uphill rut is drier with somewhat better traction. With open differentials both downhill wheels, front and rear, just spin. There is a solution – it’s called MOMENTUM. Take a running start and pray. But this is rough on equipment, people, and gear, especially if there are any bumps in the trail. Stuff just goes flying. I don’t like my scoped rifles flying about inside the truck. With a locker, you can go slowly, while keeping your stuff inside the truck bed and people in their seats. With limited slip, you might get through. The operable word here is ‘might’. Fractional power is better than none, after all.

    There is a downside to lockers, however. Sometimes, you won’t even need to shift into 4WD while those without lockers will need 4WD. Then, when the going gets really rough you will shift into 4WD and keep on going, while those without lockers will come to a stop. This can make them angry and jealous, and you will have to live with that on your conscience. Don’t say I didn’t warn you.

    The Silverado offers the locker in some configurations such as the Z71 Off Road package and Tow Max package. I have not driven the Tundra, but it is my understanding that the Tundra offers limited slip, but does not offer a locker at any price. I’ve also read that even the Tacoma mini-truck offers a locker as an option. Is that true? Even the Titan offers a locker.

    I’ll bet Tundra will eventually offer a locker if they want to become competitive. What’s the point of having a lot of power if you can’t get it to the ground where it belongs?

    1offroader
  • jreaganjreagan Posts: 285
    Silverado only looks good in picture, but in reality it's all plastic

    The GM's do NOT have any more (or less) plastic than Toyota or any other brand. Let's get real here, it's not 1969 anymore.

    How anyone can criticize the looks of either the Silverado or the Sierra is beyond me. They are both awesome looking trucks. The Toyota looks just like every other plain looking Toyota ever built. Don't the Japanese believe in body lines or what?

    Oh, and everyone (most anyway) on here that are praising the Tundra are doing so based on "paper" since it is brand new and most are going by paper specs and pics. How many have actually driven one?

    The interior in the Tundra is cheap looking and the layout is goofy. The center dash controls are closer to the passenger than the driver??? What's with the silver? Trying to look "Hi-Tech" or something? Hi-tech belongs under the skin, classy belongs in the interior.

    Oh and BTW, where is Toyota's AutoTrac 4wd? That is an awesome feature that came out in the GMs 8 years ago.
  • The Tundra is coming off as a "sissy" looking truck.
    However, it will sell MANY copies because it's QUALITY will be 10 times better than the shoddy GM, Dodge and Ford workmanship and parts-spec. I do NOT feel sorry for GM, Ford or Chrysler for the situation (declining sales) that they are now in. Had they not made CRAP, they wouldn't see Toyota staring at them through double barrels. Japanese auto makers are providing a HUGE NUMBER of North American jobs. BRAVO.
    Hello Soccer Mom Tundra; goodbye Dodge Shoddy Quality Ram and goodbye shoddy quality GMC/Chevy clone junksters. I'll bet the great selling Tundra will be offered in champaign and pink colors for the MOMS out there who will be driving their kids to soccer games. Later, they will be pulling Chevies (which have quit running due to shoddy parts quality) off the berm. Then, the Chevy owners can go to their [non-permissible content removed] dealer to order a superior sissy truck from Toyota: Sissified ?? yep. Quality ? THE BEST> RELIABLE ?? The best that the world can make. TOYOTA = RELIABLE. CHEVY = VIBRATION and OIL LEAKS.
  • jreaganjreagan Posts: 285
    Great post 1offroader...I tried making my traction point earlier...well said.

    But the Toyota doesn't have the "4 sec closed loop delay"...woohoo...big deal!!!
  • jreaganjreagan Posts: 285
    Most uninformed and idiotic post yet. Get a clue!!
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    DrFill,

    This fall I doubt we will need a $45K truck to beat the Tundra. GM, will offer the 6.2 as optional. For god Sakes what is this 4.0 5-speed auto Tundra I keep reading about on the net ? I didn't even know this combo was available. :surprise:

    Rocky
  • beliasbelias Posts: 316
    BS!!! Only difference is in the terminology. Look at the area of protection, it's the same. Do the Tundra's side airbags sense a rollover vs a side impact and stay inflated longer (up to 6 secs) to prevent post-contact injury or ejection upon rollover? I didn't think so.

    Yes in fact, they do sense rollovers and side-impact and stay inflated longer (though they don't say for how long). And in case you didn't notice 6 airbags vs 4 airbags is not a difference in "terminology". See, that is what we call mathematics. Let me break this down real simple for you because I think that this has been confused for you since you started here with a dozen different aliases all floating around in your head. Here we go...
    Silverado air bags:
    - 2 front air bags come standard
    - 2 side CURTAIN air bags are optional on some models (side curtain air bags only protect the heads)
    Tundra air bags:
    - 2 front air bags come standard
    - 2 side CURTAIN air bags come standard
    - 2 side air bags (for your TORSO) come standard
    Now, lets add this up shall we?
    Silverado: standard=2, with options=4
    Tundra: standard=6, with options=6
    So, just "standard" configurations mean that the Tundra has 4 more airbags or, let me put in terms that the GM guys here can understand... the Tundra has THREE TIMES THE AIR BAGS THAT THE SILVERADO DOES!!! I used the caps because apparently GM loyalists like pointing things out like that -- the extra emphasis seems to give more credibility :D. With options, the Tundra STILL has 2 more airbags and considerably more coverage and protection.
  • Well, at the end on 2007 we'll see the sales numbers and return to this conversation. LOL. Just like the Toyota commercial, if you were to view the contruction of the Toyota Tundra plant in Texas, you can see all the construction trucks are Ford and Chevy! LMAO...... :)
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Well you gotta have a trucks that can FINISH the job, right ? :P

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Ummmmmmmmmmmm I saw a new blue Silverado LTZ loaded and I loved it. It was a 6.0 and told the guy wow you have a very nice truck and he just grinned and said thank-you.

    I saw a friends new Double Cab Tundra and he boasted about it and I was thinking holy cow this beast is better than the last generation but the interior is ugly and cheap. I told him with a pause "nice truck" but he knew I was saying it to be nice. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Good post....Wow I didn't know the Tundra, doesn't have a autotrac system. Now that is amazing. :surprise:

    Rocky
  • Imagine the following.

    Frank is driving along a twisty mountain road. It’s a lovely winter day. He occasionally admires the beautiful scenery, but mostly he gazes longingly at the sumptuous plasticky interior of his new leased Tundra. His wandering eye leaves the road for a split second to caress the luxurious color-contrasting multi-tones of the Tundra’s dashboard. At that precise moment he hits a patch of black ice on the road. Whoops! Over the side he goes! (Hey, bad things happen to good people like Frank, even when they are driving the Mighty Tundra.)

    After four complete rolls and one end-over-end he lands upside down on the steep slope 100 yards below the road. The air bags deployed as designed, saving Bob from immediate death. However, he’s now dangling helplessly upside down in his seat belt like a bruised banana, unconscious and bleeding profusely from the standard orifices as well as several new ones. No one driving by can see him down there, and without immediate help Frank is farked.

    Unbeknownst to Frank, a battered five-year-old Geo Metro rolls to a stop on the shoulder of the road above. Snowboarder Dude leaps from the car and runs to the edge of the road to answer the call of nature. As he does what comes natural, Snowboarder Dude notices the Tundra, wheels up, on the slope below. “Whoa, duuuuude!” he exclaims. Snowboarder Dude zips up his Dickies overalls and shuffles back to the Geo. He remembers the instructions from his mother, who has faithfully paid the annual OnStar renewal fees ever since the car was new. “Just push this button if you need help”, his mother reminds him constantly. Reaching inside the rusty hulk he presses the OnStar button for the first time in his life.

    “OnStar. How may I help you?”
    “Whoa. Far out.” He presses the OnStar button again.
    “OnStar. How may I help you?”
    “Cooool!” He presses the button for the third time.
    “OnStar. May I help you with something?” asks the disembodied voice, somewhat irritably.
    “Oh, yeah. Sorry, man. I think some dude is illegally parked on the slope. Seriously.”
    “Can you give me more information, sir?
    “There’s a car down there, upside down. It’s probably not supposed to be there.”
    “Is anyone injured?” asks the OnStar voice.
    “I can’t tell. There’s someone in there, but he’s not moving. Maybe he’s reading, or sleeping. Or stoned. Heh heh.”
    Fortunately for Frank, OnStar personnel are trained to deal with disoriented accident survivors. Usually, however, the witnesses on the scene are lucid.
    “We’ll get someone out there right away. I’ll stay on the line with you until help arrives.”
    “Cool.” For the next ½-hour Snowboarder Dude proceeds to tell the OnStar Operator about the awesome snow conditions, the slopes he shredded today, and the hot chicks he met at the warming hut. Finally, help arrives and the OnStar Operator signs off with a barely noticeable “Whew!”

    The paramedics use the “jaws of life” to rip open the Tundra like a cheap styrofoam container of Cup-O’-Ramen. They extricate Frank’s limp body and, using a stretcher, drag him up the slope to the waiting ambulance. Three months and several reconstructive surgeries later, Frank is as good as ever. Except for that nervous tic and his new habit of trolling the GM Truck forums on Edmunds.com.

    At dinner one night, Mrs. Frank delicately brings up the question she’s been hesitating to ask. “Frank”, she says softly, “the police told me that a local snowboarder called the ambulance. He saved your life. I didn’t think you could get cell phone service up there on the mountain.” Frank’s children, Franky and Frankette, listen with rapt attention.
    “Uh, that’s right.”
    “So, how did he call the ambulance?” Inquiring minds like Mrs. Frank want to know.
    “It’s called OnStar. It’s a satellite-based system that works anywhere in the country. Some cars come equipped with it as a standard feature.”
    “Oh, yeah. I heard the commercials. Well, I want you to have it on your truck. If you have another accident the snowboarder might not be there to save your life.”
    “Uh, it’s not available.”
    “What do you mean, Frank?”
    “Not available…(unintelligible).”
    “Frank, of course it’s available. The snowboarder had it on his rusty old clunker. That thing is a piece of junk! Your Mighty Tundra is brand new. It cost $40,000.”
    “Toyota doesn’t…doesn’t offer…(unintelligible).”
    “If something happens to you, what will happen to me and the kids??? Who will make the payments on the trailer home? Who will pay my momma’s cable bill? I want you to get OnStar. I don’t care how much it costs. Just get it!” she screams.
    “Not available…any price...”
    Mrs. Frank interrupts before he can mumble another word. “Enough excuses, Frank. Get the OnStar, or else.”

    Frank is a happy man today. He’s driving again, and still behind the wheel of his Mighty Tundra. Oh sure, Mrs. Frank is gone – along with the mobile home, the kids, and the backyard trampoline. But Frank has his brand new leased Tundra, thoughtfully provided by the insurance company just before they cancelled his policy. In fact, it’s the new super improved model, now with 390 horsepower and 405 ft. lbs. of torque! First in its class, by golly! He nods and smiles approvingly, secure in the knowledge that if he has to race a Silverado in the standing ¼-mile, he’ll probably win. Unless he crashes first, in which case he knows the Silverado owner will use OnStar to save him. Again.

    That couldn’t really happen, right?

    Let’s recap – so to get a few more horsepower, most of which no one will ever use and a fraction of a second less in a standing ¼-mile, I have to give up a locking rear differential which I’ll use a lot and an awesome safety system like OnStar that could save my life (or yours). Gee, that’s a tough choice. I’ll have to think that over.

    1offroader
  • Generally speaking, I believe that warranties have less to do with the actual quality of the vehicle and more to do with the auto maker's desire to change the perception of their quality. After all, GM's warranty prior to 2007 was pretty much the standard 3 year/36K, right? I don't think their quality has improved that much from the 2006 to the 2007 model year.

    And doesn't Hyundai offer a 10 year, 100k warranty - 5 years longer than GM's 5 year, 100k? So wouldn't that be the best warranty?
  • 1offroader, who rights your stuff? It is excellent. Seriously. Jeez the tradeoff between a 6.0 with Onstar and a Tundra isn't even a fair trade!
  • Tundra 4x4 comes with A-Trac (Active Traction control), which has been proved in Land Cruiser, 4Runner, FJ Cruiser.
  • pmuscepmusce Posts: 132
    Automotive news link is www.autonews.com but you need a paid subscription to get to the data centre.

    As to the breakdown of Toyotas sales from 2005 to 2006:

    2005
    Domestic - 1,399,496
    Import - 860,799
    Total - 2,260,295

    2006
    Domestic - 1,362,904
    Import - 1,399,496
    Total - 2,542,525

    The production data I gave is for US only. Automotive news breaks it down by country. Here is the rest if you are interested:

    Toyota 2006
    Total U.S. car 503,885
    Total Canada car 240,494
    Total U.S. truck 327,708
    Total Canada truck 76,939
    Total Mexico truck 34,465

    GM 2006
    Total U.S. car 1,156,809
    Total Canada car 543,496
    Total Mexico car 191,177
    Total U.S. truck 1,937,609
    Total Canada truck 250,925
    Total Mexico truck 309,414

    My post was not to you correction on the Tundra beds. You are correct on where they are made and I was not disbuting that. I think its good that Toyota builds plants in the US (and Canada) but they are not creating jobs. They are displacing a subset of the jobs lost at the Big 3 and the rest of the Big 3 jobs are lost the huge number of import sales from Japan.

    As to whether Silverado or Tundra is a better truck, I will give you my opionion: Silverado. First, I believe Toyota has produced a very capable and formidable competitor in the new Tundra. However, the Tundra does not offer Heavy Duty versions or Diesals which is a huge part of the full size truck market. I spent considerable time in both the Tundra and Silverado at NAIAS and I can tell you the GTM900 interiors are much nicer and have higher quality plastics than Tundra. The panel gaps are tighter as well. The Tundra has a killer top V8 engine but the lower level V8 is outclassed by the GMT900 4.8 and 5.3. Lastly while I respect the capabilities of the Tundra, I find the truck to be ugly. The Black plastic insert above the front grill is very cheap looking.

    By the way, I read on another forum that Car and Driver compared the Silverado, Tundra, Ram, F150 and Titan in the April Issue. According to the poster, the order of finish was as follows:

    1. Silverado
    2. Titan
    3. Tundra
    4. Ram
    5. F150

    Again, I read this on another forum and I have not seen the issue yet (I do subcrive to C&D but they come later in Canada) so I can't confirm if it is true. If it is, I am surprised that the Tital is so high and the F150 for low.
  • geo9geo9 Posts: 739
    Heres some facts in video....................
    Note the choice of trucks by workers in the back ground in this commercial production of the new tundra...........

    Mostly Fords......NO toyotas.............

    http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/minisite/commercial/tundra_tv1.html
  • There is NO dispute on this. Even the 200 vice presidents (or, is it now 150 ?) at GM have conceded that TOYOTA is the benchmark for RELIABLE trucks and cars...bar none. So, if you get stranted along the road in your GMC or Chevy truck, a soccer mom will be along soon in her new pink Tundra (as sissified as it is) to tow you home. ;-)

    - Frieberg
  • I write my own stuff. I think it's important to look at life with a sense of humor. Having the facts helps, too. I've spent most of my life tinkering with cars and trucks - including GMs and Toyotas, and have the scars on my knuckles to prove it. I think my posts demonstrate at least a rudimentary knowledge of the way vehicles work. I like to pass on that knowledge. If you think I'm wrong about something, let me know why you think so. But don't call me names.

    You'll notice I don't attack people personally. There's no need for that. Automobiles just aren't that important in the overall scheme of things.

    I appreciate the recent 'time out' called by the moderator. Hey folks, take a deep breath. Relax. It's just trucks, fercryinoutloud. Trucks are just toys for bigger boys.

    1offroader
  • I like the silverados looks but i've seen the kinda crap that some of my friends & relatives have gone through with their sierras and silverados which arnt even 3 years old. I dont want to go to the shop 22 times or have my truck bought back. I'll admit theres a few which are great and take abuse but the last few years theyve been POSes. If i had to pick between dodge, fords and chevy/silverado 1/2 tons i would pick the GM twins theyre better in resale value and dont feel as cheap. Toyota basically made a muscle truck, They got tired of all the crap domestic guys bashed about and gave what the American public wants no "sissy" car interior, aggressive front end which some toy execs didnt want and power . I hope these GM twins come out to be great trucks because theyre very nice lookin ;)

    looking at GM sales, it seems like a lot of people are fed up and changing brands. If they continue to fall in quality and reliability people in todays informed market will look else where. I dont think advertising will save them, not even good reviews if they dont put out a more reliable product then the competition.
  • chuck1chuck1 Posts: 1,405
    You know, I have been driving for over 35 years, and have never had a car equipped with On-Star.
    Most people that I know, do not renew their free trial after the 12 months has passed. And with cell phones, one can argue it's not really needed. I guess there are a few accidents where you could be knocked out and not able to talk.

    But most people that I know do not find enough value in On-Star.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    1offroader,

    Wow that was a comical story but with real life facts. :)

    Rocky
  • Toyota is doing some type of onstar thing also. Havent heard anything concrete yet maybe its because most people dont need onstar since almost everybody has cell phones lol.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Generally speaking, I believe that warranties have less to do with the actual quality of the vehicle and more to do with the auto maker's desire to change the perception of their quality.

    Generally Speaking you are correct but Hyundai does rank among the top in reliability. ;)

    After all, GM's warranty prior to 2007 was pretty much the standard 3 year/36K, right?

    Chevrolet, GMC, Pontiac, Saturn were 3 year/36K bumper to bumper. I'd have to look up the powertrain warrranty. The diesel's had a longer powertrain warranty than the gas.

    Cadillac, Buick, Saab, all have 4 yr. 50K bumper to bumper warranty's. Oldsmobile in it's final years had a 5 year 60K bumper to bumper warranty to give potential owners peace of mind.

    All GM automobiles for 2007' have 5 year 100K powertrain warranty's. The Hyundai powertrain warranty is yes 5 years longer but theirs a catch to them. They are non-transferrable. The GM warranty's can be transferred to owner to owner until it expires. ;)

    I don't think their quality has improved that much from the 2006 to the 2007 model year.

    Well maybe not in just 1 years time frame but from let's say 2004 to present it has quite a bit. GM, hasn't put a awful interior in any of it's new products and more and more technology from powertrain to gadgetology will roll out each year. ;)


    And doesn't Hyundai offer a 10 year, 100k warranty - 5 years longer than GM's 5 year, 100k? So wouldn't that be the best warranty?

    Your answer is posted above but I will add yeah the Hyundai is the best for someone that keeps a car for a long time and drives only 10K a year in mileage. Most americans drive and average of 18K a year total from what I read ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Toyota, might of been the benchmark for reliability a few years ago but as of late I wouldn't dare quote that.

    Maybe Porsche, Hyundai..... ;)

    Rocky
This discussion has been closed.